Beyond Souls-likes: Ideas for an evolved online action-RPG. We want a game, not a second job!

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Coinkydink (banni(e)) 27 oct. 2024 à 9h45

I am posting this here because the off-topic forum is largely not about video games..

This is not meant to start any debates (which inevitably descend to fights as differences in taste in video games are not resolvable). It is just some ideas on the action-RPG I want to play, in case any game designers/ developers are reading. If you want to add your own ideas or have concrete arguments why some of these ideas are problematic , feel free, but this is not the thread to argue over existing games!

Tl;dr: Solo or online 2/3 player co-op PvE / opt-in PvP Demon Souls-like with a combination of some roguelite elements and permadeath in early game, but less gnashing of teeth and lots of QoL improvements.

I am coming mainly from a Souls background (I actually only love these games for the very badly implemented but unique co-op experience) but have tried pretty much every action RPG I have been able to get my hands on over the last 10 years. I have yet to play Wukong but I have not seen anything particularly new there.

Apart from the co-op, the appeal to me of Souls is the presence of very tough enemies, tricky areas to navigate, the potential to level up your character hundreds of times, as well as a huge weapon variety and weapon upgrades to tackle increasingly hard opponents.

The ideas here are mostly about an evolved Souls-like with fully implemented online co-op that is honestly tough but fair and does not employ From Software-like tactics to increase the difficulty.

The main points:

GENERAL DESIGN CONCEPTS
- We want a game, not a second job. An emphasis on QoL and streamlined user experience to facilitate long-term appeal and playability ( hundreds of level-ups) by removing time wasting designs and RPG tropes.

- NO OPEN WORLD. Demon’s Souls-like game world structure with a base hub from which all other areas can be eventually accessed. The hub is also the lobby for online play where the player can match with others for specific co-op missions, or PvP, which is not forced but opt-in.

-No dice rolls or procedurally generated content ! A large number of hand-crafted, compact but tricky areas to explore with meaningful rewards for risky exploration and meaningful rewards from tough encounters.

The base hub features streamlined level-up/merchant/weapon upgrade services in one menu, with animated merchant/trainer characters appearing next to the menu. No more running back and forth between shops to purchase upgrade materials then running to bring it to the blacksmith, etc. We want a game, not a second job. The hub can also house the player’s alternative characters, who can co-exist in the same playthrough.

-Checkpoints right in front of boss areas, that can be teleported to from the hub.

-NO GRAVITY DEATHS OR 3D PLATFORMING- Player character does not walk off cliffs and game world is not designed for platforming and getting the player to fall off the map. Platforming does not belong here.

-Enemies drop items consistent with what kind of creature they are… No Zweihanders from spiders!

-No Nioh-like trash generic loot system to deal with.

-NPCs that are accessed regularly such as the merchant and trainer and blacksmith do not repeat the same greeting every time. Option in settings to silence them completely.

-NO UNSKIPPABLE CUT SCENES.
Most dialogue and story/plot takes place in-game.

-No important NPCs moving away to obscure locations without real clues! No more From Software “puzzles” that have no rhyme or reason and will be “solved” by most people with a quick visit to YouTube.

DEATH
-Death/ defeat state is permadeath early in the game, with the player’s character after a certain point being able to be indefinitely revived after death without loss of XP, back in the hub. Game lore and story reflects this and the difficulty increases accordingly once the permadeath stage has been overcome.

-To avoid the Groundhog Day misery familiar to anyone who tried a Souls game, enemies do NOT automatically respawn upon death. They will respawn if the player travels to another area before defeating the area boss, as this is considered a quit. Travelling back to base before the boss may be something the player decides to do if the equipment they are carrying seems inadequate, but each area should contain equipment sufficient for the job.

Once the area boss has been defeated, it is locked into oblivion with a magical seal. This seal then appears at the hub, which allows the player to revive all the enemies AND boss of this area, with NG+ difficulty and giving more XP and/or better loot. This does NOT mean the game should require grinding but the option to re-fight enemies and bosses you already killed in the current playthrough should be there. XP rewards from killing the same enemy over and over should rapidly drop after the first time, to prevent premature and cheap over-levelling.

At the permadeath stage, the player upon death loses area progress and starts again at the character creation screen at level 1 and with the same choice of free starting equipment corresponding to the several builds/classes (heavy, rogue, archer, mage, etc), BUT can access a shared gear / gold storage from previous runs and purchase better gear straight away, if enough gold was kept in the storage.

XP and money are separate. Death does not result in the dropping of “Souls” (XP) , but in the dropping of all gear, items and any coins carried, which can be always be recovered from your corpse at any later time. (*see next point). This is not too bad as killed enemies do NOT respawn on death, but only if you decide to teleport back to base or travel to another area before defeating the boss. The enemy responsible for a player death may pick up and use the dropped items and gold (if they can), and then have to be defeated to recover all the gear / items and some of the coins. To avoid grief, enemies will not be able to use unique weapons that have been upgraded; also, if using gear that is not their own , they will not be able to use the full move set/ special attacks and will only benefit from the weapon’s base damage without the multipliers applied by player level. Starter gear will always will be available for free replacement at the hub and common items can be bought again and again.

-Magic mule : Picking up equipment that is over your carry limit, as well as picking up gold, will offer the option to leave it where you found it or send it back to base for safekeeping and for use in later runs/ other characters, with some kind of teleporting mule pet (perhaps acquired early on and later optionally replaced with found alternative forms that may also give minor assistance in battle). Stored equipment at the hub can be accessed by other characters the player creates, for less tedious alternate playthroughs.

-No invisible magic backpack. Player can only carry a limited amount of gear not much more that can realistically be carried by a human being (albeit a very strong one, lol), with the rest going to storage in the hub with the magic mule. Teleporting back to hub is always available but does respawn enemies.

- A large variety of weapons, weapon types, movesets and armor (at least as large as the Souls games) makes for lasting appeal and replayability and an almost endless variety of player builds, so that the online never becomes stale.

PLAYER STATS & PROGRESSION
-Player’s offensive and defensive power is primarily determined by equipment. Levelling up has a smaller effect but also unlocks more powerful moves. XP is immediately assimilated and is separate from currency (only one currency!)

Levelling up is automatic. Build choice comes from choice of equipment. Instead of choosing what to level up, stats level up automatically depending on equipment being used. For example, the more you use a dexterity weapon, the more Dex you get. This gradually unlocks more advanced moves for that weapon class, and a special attack. Wearing heavy armor increases your ability to carry heavier gear. Combined with gear stats, this keeps the player character in a certain class, so you cannot have effective heavily armoured mages using staves AND heavy melee weapons, or effective heavily armoured rapier users, for example (heavy armour slows down the rapier’s attack). Hybrid builds only become viable in the post end-game situation or through combinations of equipment that prevent over-powered builds.

-No instant re-spec, as it is a game device not consistent with realistic character building; to prevent tedium, alternate characters can quickly be created and access the items and gold stored at the hub. Alternatively, switching to a different weapon type and using it gradually increases the relevant stat at the cost of decreasing something else (e.g. strength vs dexterity or magic power). Most gear has no hard level requirements but advanced gear will not be fully effective by low-level players and cannot be given to other players, to prevent grifters. Weapon upgrade materials are not hard-limited and can allow for exploring several weapon types in one playthrough…

-No weapon durability, disease, hunger, curse, or other unfun survival game trappings.

COMBAT

-Combat should be taken in the opposite direction to which From Software has headed with Elden Ring, meaning a return to methodical and slower paced combat that is more about tactics, spacing and timing, than reaction times, foreknowledge of attack patterns, broken weapons and sheer luck. (Please take this argument to another thread).
-Every enemy can be beaten every time with skill and not luck. This means enemies do NOT just use RNG to choose from a list of possible moves resulting occasionally in combos that cannot be defended against. Each enemy has a certain behaviour which can be learned. Enemy variety and not RNG prevents tedium.

- A move away from tired Souls tropes.
This means:
-NO MORE DODGE ROLL! Enough is enough. A simple backstep or side-step are the only needed evasive options. A tight game engine should not rely on i-frames. More emphasis on blocking with directional inputs for successfully blocking different kind of attacks (swipes, overheads, straight pokes, etc). Less chaotic ganking and more emphasis on tight, methodical combat.

-Power fantasy takes precedence over weakness fantasy. This means that you are able to evolve your character from a weakling to a real badass.
-No enemy scaling.
-Late game enemies are not damage sponges but require both upgraded gear and skill to defeat or get past. Late game bosses do not require a prolonged battle of attrition or repeating the same and only tactic that works for a dozen times (or even more in the case of some From Software bosses).

-No uninterruptible execution/ backstab/ riposte animations interrupting the action! From Software can keep that combat design since they like it so much... There should be options to perform particularly punishing moves but this will leave you open to attack from other enemies. To keep things fun, this will mean thoughtful enemy placement and not gank squads around every corner.

Real world physics (mostly) and methodical combat. No anime katana instakill tropes or visual fx overload, and NO PHANTOM HITS. To keep things fun, make melee weapons big but keep the hitbox the same size as the visible weapon, FFS.

CO-OP

- Summon no more than 1-2 co-op players for a tight and challenging game.
-Perhaps the most important upgrade here is the ability for a summoned player (friend or foe) to stay on after death as a ghost, watching the rest of the session without being visible or able to interact in any way. Instead of immediately being sent back to their game they get a dialogue box with the option to keep watching as a ghost. This allows people to see the outcome of heated sessions!
-Placing co-op summon signs in the game world is one of the great Souls ideas and should be kept and improved. No more fog walls limiting co-op movement because of a severely limited game engine!
-Additional player lobby at the hub with comprehensive summon/ be summoned options including conditions, summon area or random summoning, boss fights or world exploration, custom text box for specific requests/ rules etc.

Can someone make this game please ?