Инсталирайте Steam
вход
|
език
Опростен китайски (简体中文)
Традиционен китайски (繁體中文)
Японски (日本語)
Корейски (한국어)
Тайландски (ไทย)
Чешки (Čeština)
Датски (Dansk)
Немски (Deutsch)
Английски (English)
Испански — Испания (Español — España)
Испански — Латинска Америка (Español — Latinoamérica)
Гръцки (Ελληνικά)
Френски (Français)
Италиански (Italiano)
Индонезийски (Bahasa Indonesia)
Унгарски (Magyar)
Холандски (Nederlands)
Норвежки (Norsk)
Полски (Polski)
Португалски (Português)
Бразилски португалски (Português — Brasil)
Румънски (Română)
Руски (Русский)
Финландски (Suomi)
Шведски (Svenska)
Турски (Türkçe)
Виетнамски (Tiếng Việt)
Украински (Українська)
Докладване на проблем с превода
Правила и насоки за дискусии
Докладване на публикацията
Bring on the the crazy Harris.
https://youtu.be/tdSLh_GP9L8
Personally, to me, describing with type of nationalism they are in is subjective. For instance, that Jewish organisation I cited earlier said Project 2025 has an agenda full of christian nationalist polices. Anti-porn, wanting Christianity beliefs taught in schools. Which is undeniably true. And christian nationalism is not civic nationalism and at odds with the civic part. So the label that Project 2025 is civic nationalists just doesn't really matter when it's full of holes like that.
The source we both used said the current immigration process is planned to be demolished. Being replaced with a new non-existent one means the old one is getting demolished. Getting rid of most forms of it entirely so none of the process can work properly as the end goal. Getting rid of all whitelisted countries America accepts select amounts of legal immigration from each year.
What's more, the source both you and I used said that this was nothing like the Republican's current stance on immigration where republicans want merit based selective legal immigration, stuff like highly skilled workers. So what you originally tried to say was Project 2025's immigration is like traditional republican immigration when the report said the problem with it's new policy is that it's not like their traditional stances at all.
Yes, I will admit I was somewhat wrong about this. I originally had the impression Project 2025 immigration policy plans would make use the exceptions and manual processes for the countries they liked. Because some of their policies certainly suggested that would be the route. But I have since changed my opinion. The source I used changed my opinion because it's analysis of PJ 2025 basically stated those exceptions they carved out won't matter. That the plan it too outright gut all legal and merit based immigration for an indefinite period of time.
So yeah, the original claim here was the nazis were 100% anti-immigration and that Project 2025 is for sensible legal immigration. But the facts suggest the nazis were mostly anti-immigration and Project 2025 are the ones who are actually 100% anti-immigration.
This is a false dichotomy fallacy. There is a combination of concern for personal liberty and health. So that part is true. But there is also other parts to this dichotomy that aren't invalidated by those first two concerns. The elements of believing as people we should develop a natural immunity through exposure and death to the disease itself. Aka Darwinism. As well as conspiracies theories surrounding vaccines and autism specifically. Which the movement has long history with that myth. As evidenced by my source here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789217/
I mean, it does kind of discredit what you said because PJ 2025 believes in welfare more broaldy. Just welfare that only benefits their Volksgemeinschaft, the corporations, the middle class, and the farmers.
It's just the poors and the minorities are the only ones PJ 2025 doesn't want getting welfare. I wonder if there was some other country with a political party in the 1930s that believed in welfare, but only for their Volksgemeinschaft as well? If they did exist it seems they would have very similar views on welfare to PJ 2025.
Christians, specifically the more extreme ones like the evangelic base are not pro-Jewish. They're pro Israel and anti-Jewish is most cases because Isreal has benefits to antisemitism or anti-Jewishness beliefs. The first benefit being Jewish people having a nation that isn't America where they can go means they can leave America. This is why many neo-nazis like Richard Spencer are pro-Israel. Because he wants them gone from America. The second being evangelicals believe in the rapture. Yes, they want to help give Jewish people a home hoping Jewish people can burn in hell for all eternity and Christians can all go to heaven. Which is a pro-Israel belief that isn't pro-Jewish when you think about it.
Another thing. I'm happy I got to bring this source up again. Because I forget to mention something funny about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism
This wiki actually has a whole section dedicated to this phenomenon in the US specifically. And here is the kicker. People like Glenn Beck and John Hagee mentioned in that section for their antisemitism and being pro-Israel. They are also pro-Project 2025 (like they defend PJ 2025 when the left attacks it to be more specific).
Your original idea was Nazis = antisemetic, Project 2025 = pro-Jewish". However, you are only reaching that conclusion by an improper conflation between pro-Isreal and pro-Jewish. Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu believes in this conflation too. Which is funny because he also believes the Nazis were not antisemitic because they would have been pro-Israel if it had existed back then.
Netanyahu has even said he did not believe Hitler was responsible for the holocaust (he blames the commies) and the only thing Hitler wanted to do was deport the Jews. Netanyahu suggesting that if the nation of Israel had existed back then the holocaust never would have happened. On some level Netanyahu is right, if the nation of Israel had existed back the nazis would have been pro-Israel, and then by your definition that means they also would have been pro-Jewish.
I stand by
Nazi Germany = antisemitic
Project 2025 = antisemitic
The zionist antisemitism source is more than enough to establish this and refute the baseless pro-Israel = pro-Jewish narrative. But if you want we can change that to the conflated version anyway.
Nazi Germany = would have been Pro-Israel had it existed back then
Project 2025 = also is Pro-Israel
This isn't about what it is "personally to you". You're equating people with Nazis when they are not. Civic nationalism is the exact opposite kind of nationalism from ethnonationalism. You can't make an argument that Christianity is ethonationalism because there is no "ethno" part. A quick stroll around the internet and you can find no shortage of homophobic Christians of color from the US. It is not ethnonationalism as there is no ethnicity and it's not a subjective issue for you to arbitrate on. "Ethno" means ethnicity/race. That is the sole and literal definition. It's not up to your interpretation. This argument of yours is defunct. Drop it.
Exactly, the source said it's being demolished. I guess anything anyone types on the internet is true, huh? "Demolished" is what's actually subjective. Capitalism runs this country and the wealthy love immigration, so it will never be "demolished". What is proposed in P2025 is more accurately a reform, but "demolished" is used to convey false severity.
Your original argument is that the immigration policy is ethnocentric and that has been proven wrong as the policy explicitly rejects immigrants from Russia and Ukraine, the overwhelming majority of which would be White. This is what determines if the immigration policy is racist or "Nazist" or not and it's evident that it's not ethnocentric in nature. If you want to make an argument that P2025 is anti-immigration, that's fine, but you can't call them Nazis for it because you and I have proven it's not about race. The irony is that the Nazis actually did allow some non-White immigration into Germany during their time and there were actually a few Black people who lived and visited there. Since the immigration policy of P2025 is factually not ethnocentric, let's cross it off the list and move on.
The problem with this is that you're proposing that the natural immunity aspect is the prime rationale for being anti-vaccine when we both know it's not. The vast majority were protesting against it because they saw it as an overreach of government. My mother is highly sensitive to pharmaceutical drugs and a vaccine could potentially kill her. If you think my opposition to mandated vaccines is because of some eugenic ideal and not that, you're off your rocker. The anti-vax argument is nowhere near Nazist and despite propaganda, was supported by people across the entire political spectrum, not just conservatives.
It doesn't and the Volksgemeinschaft was nearly everyone in Nazi Germany. Even in Mein Kampf, Hitler advocated for reforming people with criminal histories and helping the poor (Germans). That stands in very stark contrast to the average Republican policy, especially P2025. Again, you are disregarding any degree of separation and nuance that disproves your assertion. The Republican party is lock them up and throw away the key and ♥♥♥♥ anyone that isn't rich. The Nazis were the opposite of this. This argument has now been debunked and it is another one off the list for you.
Another instance of you ignoring any degree of nuance and separation to suit your agenda. First of all, the average evangelist Christian loves Jews. This is displayed in their submissiveness to the AJC and their affection outweighs any periphery antisemitism. Second, there is no Republican policy encouraging Jews to leave the US and go to Israel. As I noted earlier, it's quite the opposite, with Republicans continually creating and enforcing policies that make Jews a privileged group in the US. Third, you're lumping people like Spencer in with Evangelist Christians which is both wrong and dishonest. Spencer and others are not Evangelist Christians. They support Israel for purely pragmatic reasons, unlike Evangelist Christians who do it because of their religious beliefs that puts Jews on a pedastal. The two are not the same and you are being dishonest to conflate and equate them.
And we know that Glenn Beck and John Hagee are in the clear minority. The overwhelming majority of the Republican party is factually not antisemitic; they are Semitophiles. I'm not denying that there are some periphery antisemitic elements in the conservative camp, but the point is that they are a small minority. Nazism is very thoroughly antisemitic and again, this is a matter of degree and severity and one which does not tilt in your argument's favor, but against it. Also I'd like to see you point out exactly where in P2025 that says it will rollback privileges for Jews, please.
I agree with this and it is a fact. The problem is again degree and nuance. The virtual totality of the Nazi party was antisemitic and it was a core of their ideology. This isn't remotely true for the Republican party. A small minority does not represent the majority.
Except you've done nothing to prove P2025 is antisemitic. There is nothing that says the FBI wouldn't care to Jews and the social policies would be supported by a great number of traditionalist Jews and actually align with what's written in the Torah.
Likewise, book burning predates nazis. The Chinese did it first I think. Christians did it some point later too. When people do book burnings though, this activity can be heavily associated with nazism and can be considered a point towards establishing that someone is acting like that of the nazi party who wanted to burn books on transgender studies/healthcare first and foremost. Hey look, I tied it back to the nazis specifically being VERY anti-trans like Project 2025.
The problem is you haven't really quantified in what specific ways you think they are civic nationalists. Looking it up, "civic nationalism adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights, and is not based on ethnocentrism". So how does this apply to Project 2025? They definitely don't emanate liberal values imo.
Project 2025 being against transgender rights is clearly antithetical to civic nationalism as I thought it was earlier. Because opposing equal rights for LGBT people is specifically against the equality and individual rights part that civic nationalism definition. What's more, wanting to fire civil servants who won't swear loyalty to Trump is definitely against liberal values of freedom and individual rights as well. That's just authoritarianism, which is the opposite of liberal values.
I'd love to hear of where you think Project 2025 demonstrates civic nationalist values. But keep in mind you'd need to list a lot of them to make up for all the ways in which Project 2025 is anti-liberalism and anti-equality.
Before you or I cited the source, I had originally read that exact document a bit (skimmed through it). It's literally why I chose to use the word "demolish" in the first place. You disagreed with the word choice "demolish", but proceeded to use the exact source 1 paragraph later that formed it. Heck, the URL directly had the word "demolish immigration" in it, but you cited it anyway.
Russia and Ukraine immigrants being excluded aren't exactly a good argument to make about perceived whiteness. Because the concept of whiteness isn't ideologically inconsistent.
Jewish people aren't considered white by white supremacists. What's more, immigrants like the Irish and Germans weren't considered white back then either, Heck, Benjamin Franklin quotes exist where he called the German immigrants back in the day "swarthy". He said German immigrants were swarthy, as in they had dark or black skin tones. Dude was saying these brown german immigrants don't belong in America back then. How is that for modern day sensibility whiplash?
I don't think ever proposed that it's the prime reason for anti-vaccine hesitancy? My original statement was;
Which I think I backed up this statement quite well in hindsight.
Anti-vax is definitely not nazism. The overall point of my original statement was that eugenics as a belief is largely extinct now.
No one in the modern day and age can meet the standard of being eugenicists precisely because it's basically a dead belief on a political scale. Project 2025 and anti-vax is closer to this extinct belief than your average organisation though because some shared ancestry of Darwinism. It's literally the closest connection anyone can make even if it is a spurious connection as I've said here.
Two things. They stuck a lot of other kinds of people in the camps besides Jewish people. So you could say there were a lot of people they didn't consider volksgemeinshaft. They stuck in ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, LGBT people, lawyers (this one makes sense), political rivals, autistic people, etc.
Second thing, not a lot of people use social welfare. This would go for both 1930s Germany or modern day America. Most I could find for Nazi Germany was the VSP with 6.6% of it's population. In America, 21% of people use social welfare. 13.75% of Germans died in the camps, which is twice as much as it's VSP members.
Literally the only thing that is different is the contempt for the poor. And hey, guess who is disproportionately poor and more likely to need social welfare because of red lining policies?
Fact of the matter is they're trying to give forms of welfare to the white middle class. Farmers too. Like farmers aren't exactly the billionaire corporate class. They're usually middle class white people. Trying to give benefits to traditionally married couples as well.
Gonna cite a study about christian nationalism and it's links to antisemitism.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ssqu.13248
Results: "Christian nationalists tend to believe in more antisemitic tropes, primarily because of their investment in the social dominance of Christians. However, their antisemitism is part of a broader set of negative views toward all minorities, which we find with experimental evidence. We also find a link between Christian nationalism and antisemitism that boosts belief in QAnon."
Of course, the study never went into it as well, but Christianity has a history with antisemitism that dates way back too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Christianity
There doesn't need to be forced exodus for antisemitic people to consider the option of them having a place to leave to be a good thing.
I never said Richard Spencer is an evangelist. I said he's a neo nazi who is pro-Israel. This was to highlight that beliefs could exist where Israel is considered a boon even to literal neo-nazis and that Evangelicals can have those same motivations for why they're pro Israel too.
The premise that being pro-Israel means you can't be anti-Jewish and thus can't be a nazi is flawed by that man's very existence too. Because he is undeniably a neo nazi (one of the more famous ones in America), and yet he is pro-Israel.
Well, luckily I'm not making the argument the Republican party is antisemitic. I do think Republicans have a disproportionate amount of antisemitic voters. But that is coming from white supremists being right wing voters, nazis and neo-nazis being right wing voters, and Evangelicals being right wing voters.
To that end, Project 2025 is antisemitic or at least has an antisemitic lean because it was made by and for christian nationalists. The fact is Project 2025 wants policies based on and to support their christian nationalist beliefs. And I already linked that study about Christian Nationalism being antisemitic. To that end, sure, Glenn Beck and John Hagee are a minority of the Republican party, but people like them are not the minority of Project 2025. The document that leaked was written by Christian Nationals or evangelicals.
Except I did make arguments that Project 2025 was antisemitic. And your entire rebuttal was "this is not possible because Project 2025 is pro-Israel".
That made it illegal to disagree with the government.
People need to lean to read these things, that was a 500 page document they pulled out overnight and pretty much pressganged the reps to sign or seem like they weren't Patriots ha ha ha
The lies make me sick honestly on both sides.
The republicans gotta have a better candidate than Trump. No one seems to even care about character anymore, whoever can lie the best is politics today
Both sides are crooked
You need to ask the right questions and find the right people who will reverse these laws. Nothing will change without that. they are practically out of control now. We are running out of time here.
but he watched the daily show in 2002!
Do you think Harris is more fit?
What about JFK?
No you want to see Jasmine Sherman as president right? or maybe Lucifer “Justin Case” Everylove
First of all, you're using Wikipedia's definition. Second, every government violates the rights of some group in some way. Regardless, every definition of civic nationalism is defined by an opposition to ethnonationalism. Again, trans people are not an ethnicity. This isn't about your "opinion"; it's about what words factually mean. "Civic" is used to denote a non-racial/ethnic type of nationalism, hence why we have the term "ethnonationalism". If the two were interchangeable, we wouldn't have two different definitions. Enough of your nonsense.
Civic nationalism =/= anti-authority, despite what a Wikipedia definition says. "Civic" denotes a lack of ethnic identity, which is exactly what P2025 has, no ethnicity.
Yes, and? I'm not using them as an authority on their opinion, but as a source for the actual policy.
I constantly see this horrendous argument repeated ad nauseum when trying to discredit the existence of White people. First of all, most the of these Republican guys have no connection to their European roots and thus I doubt they're secretly debating about the Whiteness of Slavs. Second, when they're the ones that push the civic nationalist agenda down White people's throats in this country to try and make them ignore their heritage, it's ridiculous for you to insinuate that these guys wouldn't call some blonde haired, blue eyed Ukrainian White. This isn't the 1800's. This is 2024 and we all know and accept that they are if you're being honest.
Well, not all Jewish people are White. The original Jews are a Semitic people, which means they're closely related to Arabs. The irony being that genetic studies have found that the average Israeli is most closely related to.....Palestinians. If you're referring to Ashkenazi Jews, which are mostly European, many of them do not consider themselves White because they identify more with Judaism and disown their European heritage. Judaism is a religion that stresses that Jews are an ethnicity, regardless of their actual background, so if some people don't consider them White, that is mostly the product of their own insistence.
It's 2024. Feel free to join us when you're ready. Or go on indulging a dead man's autistic Anglo-Saxon chauvinism, your choice.
You're being so intellectually dishonest that it's unreal. The vast, VAST majority, including the authors of P2025 are not anti-vax because of eugenics. There is literally no evidence that they support eugenics and the fact that they're adamantly anti-abortion proves they don't, especially when they explicitly want to cut abortion promotion programs to colored people in the 3rd World. Do I have to spell it out for you? P2025 is explicitly encouraging poor people of color to have more children. Enough of your dishonest eugenics crap.
Yes, and? They still provided for those they considered their's. P2025 only considers you "their's" if you're middle to upper class, regardless of color. This is a stark contrast to the NSDAP's agenda of social welfare. Ironically, we are back to the Nazis unironically treating a higher ratio of poor people better than Republicans do, lol.
Yeah, no. Again, you need to watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qUMnPhR_Hk&t=21s
The National Socialist state had an extremely comprehensive welfare system, with everyone getting health insurance, increases to their pensions and lower taxes on the poor, among many other things. In fact, any attempt to raise taxes on the poor was repeatedly shot down by Hitler. Again, the NSDAP was a lot more prosocial than the Republicans, outside of their political enemies. The welfare state affected every area of society and touched every life. Also, 13.75% of Germans did not die in camps because Germans were not the only ones in the camps.
No, it's not the "literally the only thing different". I've been disproving your assertions wrong one after another. Enough.
First of all, there's people in the middle class besides White people. Indian-Americans, Jewish-Americans and Asian-Americans all have higher average incomes than White people in this country and would disproportionately benefit from such policies.
Not always, this is a diverse country and it has many farmers of color. Another irony about your nonsensical posting is that the agriculture industry has always been highly pro-immigration because it cheapens their labor. So, them supporting the agricultural industry directly works to continue making White people a smaller demographic group in this country and poorer. Imagine thinking that helping the capitalist system replace White people is some kind of White supremacist conspiracy, lol. "Hey, agriculture, we're going to help you reduce the White ratio of this country and also drive down wages for poor Whites. Yeah, this is totally good for White supremacy". SMDH.
And? Again, you're manufacturing connections out of thin air. White people aren't the only ones who get married in this country, FFS.
Thanks for the garbage study, allow me to refute it:
"Especially since 2016, observers have noted the presence of fringe symbols and ideas in mainstream American politics. Invited and retweeted by an outsider president, white nationalists were elevated to be “very fine people” despite, or perhaps because of, their chants of “Jews will not replace us” while marching with torches at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in August 20"
They're equivocating any antisemitism to Christian and White nationalism, which is false. First of all, many White Nationalists are not Christian. Second, many White Nationalists are not antisemitic and many antisemites are not White or Christian.
"According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) (2020), antisemitic incidents reached a four-decade high in 2019."
The ADL is a known hate organization and is about as credible as a rando's Twitter account. Groups across the entire political spectrum dismiss the ADL because it is nothing more than a hysterical outrage generator. Using the ADL as a source on antisemitism is like using a study on global warming by the oil industry.
Of course they do. Both Judaism and Christianity are supremacist cults, just like Islam. They all have a long history of being antisemitic, anti-Christian and anti-Muslim. The Abrahamic religions have feuded since their inceptions. Again, you may as well call Muslims, the Black Hebrew Israelites, and many anti-Zionist Jews themselves Nazis because they all express antisemitism (don't actually do that; that's stupid).
Unfortunately for your fantasy, we have tons of policies that Republicans (and Democrats) have put through that make Jewish people a privileged group in this country.
What's flawed is you acting like Richard Spencer is a representative of Republicans when he is not. He even endorsed Biden over Trump. I understand the point you're trying to make, but the problems are this: any antisemitism in the Republican party is a small minority, honestly probably even smaller than the Dems. 2, the Repubs have consistently passed policy to give domestic privileges to Jews here, thereby disproving your conspiracy theory about wanting to drive them to Israel.
Then you're contradicting yourself. You're telling me the Republicans who drew up P2025 are antisemitic, when there's no proof that they are (and no, some policies that some liberal Jews don't like is not antisemitism).
I disagree strongly. From what I've seen, the most antisemitism is coming from the Democrat supporters, especially over the Palestine issue, but who knows.
And Evangelicals come in all colors. Coincidentally, I work with a few of them and they are both very pro civic nationalism and like POC's. In fact, one of them is colored and another is married to someone colored. Sorry, but your forced stereotype of the majority of Evangelicals being WN's isn't accurate.
Again, you just manufacture and exaggerate connections to fit your narrative, even when it is inaccurate. "Oh, there's some antisemitism in the Republican party, so this is another example, despite there being not a single antisemitic thing in any of the policy". No, you're intellectually dishonest and antisemitism alone doesn't make someone a Nazi, but you are clearly desperate to put this square peg into the round hole.
And your arguments were all proven wrong. There is nothing antisemitic about P2025. Just because some liberal Jews with don't like some of the social policies doesn't mean it's antisemitic. The majority of traditional Jews will support them, as it aligns with their religion. Wanting to reform the FBI to be less "woke" is not antisemitic, either. You drew these things out of the ether and then exaggerated cherry picked subjects to try and establish a non-existent burden of guilt.
"Nazi" is not a catch all insult for you to use against authoritarian things that you do not like, so drop it.
Wasn't the op you quoted comparing P2025 to Nazism not because of book burning but because of its anti-trans agenda. I don't think the op considers book burning to be solely Nazism, as you said op listed other cultures/ time periods were books were burned. its just how the Nazis fulfilled their anti-trans agenda then?