The job market in the US is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ grim for IT,software tech in general

[BigBallinChester]

I'm usually optimistic about this country but when it comes to Jobs it's always been the absolute hellscape of a place. Getting an entry level(or even internship) IT or software job in the US is basically like being a senior level software position. I've actually looked at software jobs overseas just to compare.

Places like India just have basic HTML developers, and jobs with requirements that are "show up and dress nice". Granted they aren't paid as well as American jobs but I'd rather have a job with little requirements like them and pays 50-60K a year vs 100K a year for a job where I have to know every language under god.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Oprindeligt skrevet af xDDD:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dutchgamer1982:

usa wages are truelly insane...

my 2 brothers are both mastergrade educated IT specialists. with over 2 decades of experience
one even had it's own multi million buisnuis working on making online banking safe...
they are often headhunted..

yet both earn less than 60k a year.. and thats BEFORE our dutch 42% income tax is taken off that.

100k wages are INSANE like a few dentists and our prime minister may earn that.. but the medial wage is 42k which usually needs a bachalor or master degree and couple of years of experience to even get near..

Europeans get paid a lot less but also get a lot more worker benefits and also cost of living is significantly cheaper out there AFAIK.

well for dutch our house prices are insane (490k is average house sold.. even 2 median incomes combined cannot afford the morgage on that)..

but yeah.. not included in this amount is their pension buildup, that part is paid by their boss directly to the pension fund and not part of their wage.. that can easely add another 12-20%
and they do get a car from the buisnuiss on top of that salary
and have like 6 weeks full paid leave a year.

we cant be fired on the spot.. if our boss wants to fire us we are entittled 2 months notice with full pay.. plus when send away our employee needs to give a severage fee of 6 months wages+ 1 month per year worked with this compagny,
->
and when we than are unemployed.. our employer must also pay for 6 months +1 month per year worked upto 24 months 70% of our last years average monthly wage.. as benefit.. until we found a new job.

and if we fail getting a job in that time.. we get unemployed benefits by the state of roughly 70% of our minimumwage or 1400 a month (though with benefits it is not allowed to own savings, own your house or own a car... so generally you don't want to drop that far)

being fired here is like a free paid sabatical.

but a lot of the benefits.. have been scaved down...
***educational expenses are no longer tax deductable
**our education used to be free it aint no longer and the cost for wanting to do a second degree if you already completed a master or bachalor is astronomicly high
**healthcare once like 50 euro all covered.. now is 200 euro and halve of the things aint covered so you end up spending 2000 a year on top of that a year yourself for dentistry glasses and such not covered things.

lets say our goverment for decades now does the wrong policies imho.
we aint as bad as usa by a long shot.. but we moved way to much in that direction.

and we did NOT get lower taxes in return.. for the VAT has only went up.. and so did the income tax.
-we used to have a tax exempt barrier of 15k thats now 5k
-our lowest tax bracket was once 20% thats now 39%
-our second tax bracket was once 35% thats now 42%
-our third tax bracket (for that part of income over 60k) has been lowered from 50% to 42%
-and the fourth tax bracket for incomes over 100k of 60% has been scrapped

as said most earn well below that 60k.. so for almost everybody.. including most higher educated upper middleclass.. the taxburden only has gone up..
for poor even more so..
while a lot of the benefits we used to get in return for that have been cut down severely.

who does pay a lot less tax are corporations and the once 25% tax on divident has been scrapped to 0%.. and more nonsense like that.

[Utiviroo]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ohio?MoreLikeOhHellNo:

I'm usually optimistic about this country but when it comes to Jobs it's always been the absolute hellscape of a place. Getting an entry level(or even internship) IT or software job in the US is basically like being a senior level software position. I've actually looked at software jobs overseas just to compare.

Places like India just have basic HTML developers, and jobs with requirements that are "show up and dress nice". Granted they aren't paid as well as American jobs but I'd rather have a job with little requirements like them and pays 50-60K a year vs 100K a year for a job where I have to know every language under god.

The trick people started doing was something like.

Start own business, operate as front to collect project work and parcel out the work to places with cheaper labor rates.

So instead of you just getting work for yourself what you do is get work for 10-20 of yourself and then send the work to places like India or Eastern Europe (remote work), they get paid, you skim off the top, everyone wins. Kind of.

Congratulations now you are in the same boat as the big tech, but you are still small business.

Doing the taxes/payroll for that setup is a bit of balls ache but, for those that could, it was very worth it.

Not that is easy to set all that up, but that is what a good number of people with the right skill set to pull off did.

Dunno if that is still viable to just start, but certainly was 10+ years ago.

[xDDD]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dutchgamer1982:

Oprindeligt skrevet af xDDD:

Europeans get paid a lot less but also get a lot more worker benefits and also cost of living is significantly cheaper out there AFAIK.

well for dutch our house prices are insane (490k is average house sold.. even 2 median incomes combined cannot afford the morgage on that)..

but yeah.. not included in this amount is their pension buildup, that part is paid by their boss directly to the pension fund and not part of their wage.. that can easely add another 12-20%
and they do get a car from the buisnuiss on top of that salary
and have like 6 weeks full paid leave a year.

we cant be fired on the spot.. if our boss wants to fire us we are entittled 2 months notice with full pay.. plus when send away our employee needs to give a severage fee of 6 months wages+ 1 month per year worked with this compagny,
->
and when we than are unemployed.. our employer must also pay for 6 months +1 month per year worked upto 24 months 70% of our last years average monthly wage.. as benefit.. until we found a new job.

and if we fail getting a job in that time.. we get unemployed benefits by the state of roughly 70% of our minimumwage or 1400 a month (though with benefits it is not allowed to own savings, own your house or own a car... so generally you don't want to drop that far)

being fired here is like a free paid sabatical.

Sheeeesh....
Yeah you guys have awesome labor laws. I have it good and I only get like 2 weeks off paid per year. Although if you count holidays and sick time it's closer to 5 weeks I guess
We can be fired on the spot for any reason. We still do get unemployment for a while, assuming the firing wasn't over us doing something awful
Not being able to save the benefits is similar here with disability. Although to be honest I don't know why people on that don't just hoard silver and/or gold (that is essentially saving your money in a different form)

$490k is pretty reasonable for a home. Can't buy much for that here aside from maybe a double-wide trailer or a crackhouse in a high-crime area.

And don't even get me started on the student loan debt.

[xDDD]

Oprindeligt skrevet af m662:

Oprindeligt skrevet af xDDD:

Buying apartments in cities cost a ton of money everywhere dude.

But from a quick search on the rental costs I'm seeing, I'd KILL to have rent that low. On average it's probably about 2x more.

Well here is the thing it might be cheap in comparison but not when looking at how much it has increased here.

I rent a 80 square meter livable space apartment in a medium dense city.
I have negotiated a price starting from 650 when I rented it to now 875 euro a month in 5 years span

But if you would look for it now as starter that same apartment it would cost you about 1500 in my city and 2300 in Amsterdam a month.

LOL
In my entire region it is nearly impossible to find a place cheaper than $2000/month unless you rent out a bedroom in someone's private home. And to find a decent place that isn't a roach motel in a high-crime area you're probably looking at $2600/month.
The city is more like $3000-5000/month.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Oprindeligt skrevet af xDDD:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dutchgamer1982:

well for dutch our house prices are insane (490k is average house sold.. even 2 median incomes combined cannot afford the morgage on that)..

but yeah.. not included in this amount is their pension buildup, that part is paid by their boss directly to the pension fund and not part of their wage.. that can easely add another 12-20%
and they do get a car from the buisnuiss on top of that salary
and have like 6 weeks full paid leave a year.

we cant be fired on the spot.. if our boss wants to fire us we are entittled 2 months notice with full pay.. plus when send away our employee needs to give a severage fee of 6 months wages+ 1 month per year worked with this compagny,
->
and when we than are unemployed.. our employer must also pay for 6 months +1 month per year worked upto 24 months 70% of our last years average monthly wage.. as benefit.. until we found a new job.

and if we fail getting a job in that time.. we get unemployed benefits by the state of roughly 70% of our minimumwage or 1400 a month (though with benefits it is not allowed to own savings, own your house or own a car... so generally you don't want to drop that far)

being fired here is like a free paid sabatical.

Sheeeesh....
Yeah you guys have awesome labor laws. I have it good and I only get like 2 weeks off paid per year. Although if you count holidays and sick time it's closer to 5 weeks I guess
We can be fired on the spot for any reason. We still do get unemployment for a while, assuming the firing wasn't over us doing something awful
Not being able to save the benefits is similar here with disability. Although to be honest I don't know why people on that don't just hoard silver and/or gold (that is essentially saving your money in a different form)

$490k is pretty reasonable for a home. Can't buy much for that here aside from maybe a double-wide trailer or a crackhouse in a high-crime area.

And don't even get me started on the student loan debt.

yeah usa education prices are insane..

still it has gone bad here in netherlands too.

what we used to have :
***the best performing education system in the world (average rating) many nobelprize winners amongtst those who went to school in the 70s and 80s in our nation.
***a welfare grand for student that was large enough to fully cover all their study cost.
-housing, food, tuturide, books & study materials
**a pass for public transport that had no limits so unlimited free use of all public transport
**no age restrictions.. you could start at any age.. and study for as many years as you wanted...
------
this worked VERY well as stated....
but granted there was the issue of some "eternal students' who just spend 2 decades in the same class never progressing.. always partying.. as being a student ofcourse had more status than being on welfare.. even though welfare.. without the costs of a college likely would give you a little nicer life..
BUT in reality this never was much of an issue.. sure many would party and waste a year or two.. but most people eventually want their life going.. and would get their degree..
ANY studycosts you paid that were not covered by all this were fully tax deductable.
------

in many steps this has severely cut back.
now it is :

**college fees are still 1200-1500 euro a year.. but thats only if you don't have already a bachalor or master.. if you already have one the fees are 15000-18000 a year..
(this has made getting a second degree unafordable for most)
-> much of the dutch nobelprize winners was due them being educated in 2 or 3 different diciplines alowing them to combine them into new science. this has now dried up
***the student welfare has been limited to just 5 years... and only for people upto 30.,. meaning older people can't really go study anymore.
***it is now also a loan.. while it will be turned in a gift if you get your degree within 10 years of starting your study.. so you better pass.. or your down in the hole anyway)
***it is now also much lower.. it now no longer is enough to fully cover the costs of tutoridge + books... meaning you need another source of income to provide your costs of living or loan for that... (and that loan for cost of living is NOT turned into a gift ever)
***the tax deduction has been scrapped completely
**the free public transport pass has been limited.. you now only get weekens OR weekdays.. and any holidays are exempt as are many types of public transport.. severely limiting your freedom of mobility.. it also has been turned in an 160 euro a month loan
**a sick performance bar has been added.. if you don't pass 80% of classes in 1st year.. and complete the remaining 20% fully in the year after it.. you get kicked out and barred from doing that study for at least 5 years... meaning in most cases.. you end up having to pay back the loan..
even if you have totally valid reasons like sickness for falling below this 80% bar.. it can mean your dream of doing a certain profession die..


I very much want my nation to return to how studies were funded in the 70s and 80s.. it worked..

the current system.. means many young dutch are left with 20-30k in loans
and if you screwed up your degree once you are essentially doomed to flip burgers forever.. as the chance to get one after 30 or reschool if your current one has no job perspective is virually made impossible.
I get you want people to put in efford.. but how it is now is way to restrictive..

as a teacher myself.. I much rather have a few thousant eternal students profiting of the system... and a much better educated general population.. without debt burden..
than the current unforgiving restrictive insanity..

not all people get their education imedialty right.. and people may screw up... and they may feel they have to.. but you need to offer them a realistic way to dig themselves back out that hole..
it is ok to give screwups a slap.. make them feel they have screwed up..
but no need to basicly tell them.. there is no hope ever to fix that ever again.. even if your just 25 or 30..

for this stressing system also means excelence is punished... students who get max grades usually waste time.. and thus will not pass all classes (cause they spend so much time on passing the ones they do with excelent grades.. they are good in learning but the system has such a workload it essentially eneds you to pass everything barely to not get swamped .. timewise.. the best students generally aint the one with that kind of organisising skills..
thus I see a very high dropout percentage of the students I personally see the most potential in.. while all the crappy mediocre ones.. stay in class..

I much rather have a student who did 7 years over a 4 years study.. but is the best there is..
than another mediocre one who passed everything just barely.. and completed it in 4-5 years.
**but thats not what our current policy produces..

[↑↑↓↓←→←→BASelect]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Fake:

Wendy's is hiring. Feel free to grab a job application.

Just don't fill it out with your real info then proceed to rob the place. Someone actually did that.

[Skkooomer Lord]

Don't worry, when the world was fighting for a higher position to feed it's greed and inhumanity, the real workers on the ground making the show go around will have the last laugh and pay off.

[Chalupacabaras]

I was hired as a tech support specialist in 2022, strictly based on self-learning and experience. No certifications, no degrees, just a knack for troubleshooting.

The weirdest thing is that I can't code worth a lick, but I can read code and tell you what it does. Used to drive my high school computer sciences teacher insane because he knew I copy-pasted the answers from my classmates' work but couldn't prove I cheated.

There's a few other talents I've developed since then, but the point is that you don't need a piece of paper to be successful in Big Tech. Save the money for after you've hit burnout and ditch the industry within the first 18 months of getting the job.

[Alaskan Catfish Hike]

The IT bubble is going to burst soon. all of a sudden, those cushy jobs where you don't do anything and are paid well will be worth what my baseball card from 3rd grade is worth.

[Chalupacabaras]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alaskan Catfish Hike:

The IT bubble is going to burst soon. all of a sudden, those cushy jobs where you don't do anything and are paid well will be worth what my baseball card from 3rd grade is worth.

Already happening. Google had to layoff the "personal massage team" and remove the desk-side feeding troughs last year as a cost-cutting measure.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alaskan Catfish Hike:

The IT bubble is going to burst soon. all of a sudden, those cushy jobs where you don't do anything and are paid well will be worth what my baseball card from 3rd grade is worth.

nah it aint bursting...
but demand for highly educated (bachalor and master grade) IT specialists remains high.

but people who only had college degree IT skills or who only have highschool and some programming knowledge and are paid to build wesites in drupal or something basic like that.. yeah those jobs will be gone...

what is hard is to GET the experience.. for example while people with the education my brothers had is insanely high... that specific education does not excist anymore.. it is hard to grasp machine coding etc.. if you were not handling computers in the dos era before they became mainstream.. EVEN if you tried too.. can't properly replace period accurate knowhow... having lived trough it is something IT bosses do value... so unless you have been working in IT since before 2000... your less in demand.. as their is just to many gaps in your knowdledge


the demand for real proper IT employees still is very high... but just cause you can do office and build your parents pc and installed windows and drivers on it for them.. does not guarantee a job as it did in 1995

nor does just cause you can use some lego-pieces like drag and drop simplistic coding language will guarantee a job.. AI can soon translate the customers demand and dro that dragging for them.

but real coding as in actually wringing new function.. yes that will remain a skill in demand.. but those experts are far fewers.

how do I explain the difference..
a lot of IT workers these day essentially have learned how to colour in a colouring book quite skillfully. but the skill thats needed it the ability the actually draw new things from scratch as ai can do that colouring in just fine now.

[Alaskan Catfish Hike]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dutchgamer1982:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alaskan Catfish Hike:

The IT bubble is going to burst soon. all of a sudden, those cushy jobs where you don't do anything and are paid well will be worth what my baseball card from 3rd grade is worth.

nah it aint bursting...
but demand for highly educated (bachalor and master grade) IT specialists remains high.

but people who only had college degree IT skills or who only have highschool and some programming knowledge and are paid to build wesites in drupal or something basic like that.. yeah those jobs will be gone...

what is hard is to GET the experience.. for example while people with the education my brothers had is insanely high... that specific education does not excist anymore.. it is hard to grasp machine coding etc.. if you were not handling computers in the dos era before they became mainstream.. EVEN if you tried too.. can't properly replace period accurate knowhow... having lived trough it is something IT bosses do value... so unless you have been working in IT since before 2000... your less in demand.. as their is just to many gaps in your knowdledge


the demand for real proper IT employees still is very high... but just cause you can do office and build your parents pc and installed windows and drivers on it for them.. does not guarantee a job as it did in 1995

nor does just cause you can use some lego-pieces like drag and drop simplistic coding language will guarantee a job.. AI can soon translate the customers demand and dro that dragging for them.

but real coding as in actually wringing new function.. yes that will remain a skill in demand.. but those experts are far fewers.

how do I explain the difference..
a lot of IT workers these day essentially have learned how to colour in a colouring book quite skillfully. but the skill thats needed it the ability the actually draw new things from scratch as ai can do that colouring in just fine now.

Is this an updated version of the Rick & Morty "even though we both watch cartoons, I am better than you" copypasta?

[Dutchgamer1982]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alaskan Catfish Hike:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dutchgamer1982:

nah it aint bursting...
but demand for highly educated (bachalor and master grade) IT specialists remains high.

but people who only had college degree IT skills or who only have highschool and some programming knowledge and are paid to build wesites in drupal or something basic like that.. yeah those jobs will be gone...

what is hard is to GET the experience.. for example while people with the education my brothers had is insanely high... that specific education does not excist anymore.. it is hard to grasp machine coding etc.. if you were not handling computers in the dos era before they became mainstream.. EVEN if you tried too.. can't properly replace period accurate knowhow... having lived trough it is something IT bosses do value... so unless you have been working in IT since before 2000... your less in demand.. as their is just to many gaps in your knowdledge


the demand for real proper IT employees still is very high... but just cause you can do office and build your parents pc and installed windows and drivers on it for them.. does not guarantee a job as it did in 1995

nor does just cause you can use some lego-pieces like drag and drop simplistic coding language will guarantee a job.. AI can soon translate the customers demand and dro that dragging for them.

but real coding as in actually wringing new function.. yes that will remain a skill in demand.. but those experts are far fewers.

how do I explain the difference..
a lot of IT workers these day essentially have learned how to colour in a colouring book quite skillfully. but the skill thats needed it the ability the actually draw new things from scratch as ai can do that colouring in just fine now.

Is this an updated version of the Rick & Morty "even though we both watch cartoons, I am better than you" copypasta?

not at all I am a phsyics teacher.. it's my brothers who work in IT not me.

I was merely trying to express than the demand for IT staff is not on the decline far from it.. it still goes up and up as more and more things now have computers in them..
but that the specialisation of those where the demand is for.. has also gone up a lot.
basic skills don't cut it no more.

not all levels of IT work are afflicted the same...
getting your masters in IT still is pretty much a job guarantee for life.
and if you did get it 20 years ago.. than even more so.

but they aint recruiting people fresh in 1st year college with contracts anymore no..

[Dutchgamer1982]

Oprindeligt skrevet af m662:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Chalupacabaras:

I was hired as a tech support specialist in 2022, strictly based on self-learning and experience. No certifications, no degrees, just a knack for troubleshooting.

The weirdest thing is that I can't code worth a lick, but I can read code and tell you what it does. Used to drive my high school computer sciences teacher insane because he knew I copy-pasted the answers from my classmates' work but couldn't prove I cheated.

There's a few other talents I've developed since then, but the point is that you don't need a piece of paper to be successful in Big Tech. Save the money for after you've hit burnout and ditch the industry within the first 18 months of getting the job.

Nope and you also do indeed not have to code in some positions.
The only programming languages I really knew was Perl and Python
Could read PHP could code basic PHP hated it.

Now I have to be able to read Python and R data mostly. But we can use interpreters so that is easy. But myself I work exclusively in Bash if somethings needs to be coded it goes out of my hands.

I had my basic levels education in IT and that was it besides some useless study certs
Now a few career paths later I am at the age I am comfortable where I am and I do not need extra ambition fulfilled.

I did a lot of soft-skill training, project management methods (Prince-2 etc) but IT certs honestly waste of time. First few years I did go due to government requirements after that never set foot in a training center again. If i need a refresher of something I just fire up a webinar and done.

as my brother say it.
in IT they first look at your basic degree.
than your experience
only after that at your certificates.

certificates have value.. but only as addtatives to a master in a given IT direction...
just having a microsoft of java certificate without proper basic master.. makes you unhirable. while it can get you a job in 1 compagny.. if that job ever ends.. you will find it increditbly difficult to work anywhere else..

while with a master as basic.. you can swap jobs easely

[LQIM]

Sorry tech nerds but a lot of the time you're rejected it's because you sound weak and ineffectual. Sure, it comes with the territory of being a nerd, but if you can't sound confident for at least 20 minutes at a time you're not going anywhere in life