Gender, gender identity, expression and all that gender stuff.

[Shodan]

Alright, just what the ♥♥♥♥ is going on here?

No, this is not your usual garbage like "GOD ONLY MADE MEN AND WOMEN!!! YOU WOKE!!!" or some ♥♥♥♥ like that. I'm trying to get philosophical here. Key word: trying.

Here goes:

Why would there be such a thing as gender identity / expression? What exactly is this supposed to mean? Why not simply identity and expression? What has this got to do with being male or female? Adding "gender" in front of identity / expression makes it sound like you support gender stereotypes, like if you identify a certain way, then you must be male / female, as if it's an exclusive thing based on what you're born as. I thought the whole point here was to end such stereotypes?

Gender is a separate thing from sex, right? What exactly is it then? How could gender, gender identity and expression even be a thing if they're not even consistent throughout history and in different cultures around the world? If it's not universal and constant, then how can it be a gender thing rather than just a matter of changing trends and different cultures?

What exactly is it even supposed to mean to "feel" and "identify" as male or female? How would you even define feeling and identifying as male or female? What kind of a feeling is it and what's the difference, keeping in mind what I said in the previous paragraph?

Apparently, I'm someone whose gender identifies with the sex assigned at birth or the other way round, whatever. As someone like that (apparently), I have no idea what that's even supposed to mean and I have never seen a clear explanation for it, just people stating that this is simply the way it is and that's it, deal with it. So, what is it that I'm supposed to feel? What does that even mean? How would I know if they do or don't align, based on what? What is there to even align or not align anyway? Why does it matter what I'm born as? Either way, I have my own interests, preferences, personality and so on. This has nothing to do with what I'm born as.

How would you even define gay people anymore? Is it people with penises who are attracted to people with penises? People born male who are attracted to people born male? People who express and identify as men who are attracted to people who express and identify as men?

If it depends on what someone chooses to identify as, which pronouns they choose and so on, and it's offensive to "assume" these things based on however we "assume" them, then how come no one questions the same thing about, say, historical figures who aren't alive to confirm what they identify as and what their pronouns are? How come it's universally agreed that Adolf Hitler (pardon the example) was a man / male and that he / him pronouns are appropriate for... him, yet in other cases, doing such a thing would be an offensive assumption?

If you want to wear different clothes, why not just wear them? If it fits you and you like how it looks, so what? I have some "women's" socks which are the most comfortable and warmest I've ever worn, plus they look perfectly normal and they're perfectly fitting. So, why not? Does this suddenly make me less male and more female now? It's an entirely artificial label. The socks are made from the same materials as "men's" ones, in the same factories and by the same people.

Basically, why can't you just do whichever things you wish to do differently (I'm all for that and I do the same thing myself), but by leaving out the whole gender aspect out of it? Just how is gender relevant to any of that? I've seen "feminine women" at races and I've seen "masculine women" at races, as well as "masculine men" and "feminine men", so, again, why would this be a men's, male or masculine activity, for example? What has gender got to do with it? Isn't that just stereotypical?

If everyone has different interpretations of these things, such as my example of defining a gay person, and no one can provide clear answers, then something is clearly very wrong with this vocabulary, don't you think? Don't you think something is wrong when it's too confusing to answer even the most simple and elementary things like what is a gay person?

When it comes to this entire topic, I've only ever seen nonanswers which just state these things as facts without ever actually explaining them at all. Some people just brush you off and others actually write long "answers" which, in the end, still don't actually answer a single thing at all, instead they just list a bunch of claims and that's it.

I probably forgot about some points I wanted to make, but this should be way more than enough. Oh, by the way, today I watched Barbie and thought it was great, better than I expected. The day before, I watched a movie about rallying and enjoyed that too.

[Triple G]

Escrito originalmente por Shodan:

What's the point of something like "they / them" pronouns?

It´s when You don´t know the correct pronoun. Imho that´s a point at which language is taken a bit too serious, and again works different in English, than in other languages, as in English most of the accompanying nouns wouldn´t change. Like a teacher is a teacher, no matter if it´s male, female or neutral.

But here it´s like instead of using the standard male form - using the female form, which is longer and expands on the male form, while we can´t use "they", as any of the pronouns has actually a use, while "they" would also be the same word than "she", with the difference that the latter is used for one person, and the former for many people.

While we use this by default as the formal pronoun to talk to people. You would ask "Do they want more?" instead of "Do You want more?" if You don´t know the adult person and haven´t agreed on "You", while usually the older person, or the one who is higher in the hierarchy would offer to address them with "You" - or ask for it. If it´s about being conservative with it - which isn´t as strict nowadays any more, and people would more often use "You" by default, which is nice...

Else i still think there´s a lot of overthinking involved in it.

[Abaddon the Despoiler]

Not enough people have real problems to deal with anymore, so they make them up instead.

[Holografix]

Escrito originalmente por Shodan:

Escrito originalmente por Holografix:

so your thread is not actually abut 'gender.' its about your politics.

This, including what you quoted, obviously has everything to do with gender and what you did is a great way to take something entirely out of context and dismiss everything else I said, such as what I said about myself in terms of stereotypes and the last 2 or 3 paragraphs.

You're just being incredibly dishonest in an attempt to prove a baseless assumption. Like I said, I think complaints about "WOKE" are a bunch of meaningless nonsense which never have good intentions and so on, so I don't get why you're trying so hard to portray me as one of those people. Where did I even say anything about politics? How would you know what kind of politics I support? Well, actually, you should know because I literally said it in my previous comment, maybe you should read it.

Now that I clarified this yet again, which I did just in case someone else assumes the same things, I'm seriously done replying to these useless comments. I don't know what else to say.

perhaps i was a bit hasty in that comment. after thinking about it, i realized that 'gender' is tied to language as 'inscriptions upon a body' and that terms like 'they/them' are ways of 're-inscripting' a body in culture.

so, those terms are indeed important because if:
"Gender is the repeated stylization of the body, a set of repeated acts within a highly rigid regulatory frame that congeal over time to produce the appearance of substance, of a natural sort of being" (judith butler, gender trouble),

terms like 'they/them' and language are important in understanding 'gender' as a discursive effect.

[Sixtyfivekills]

I uhh....

Escrito originalmente por Shodan:

Oh, by the way, today I watched Barbie and thought it was great, better than I expected.

It was a real fun movie, aesthetics were spot on. Now I wish I could get a horrible movie tie in game like in old days.

[Ȼħⱥꞥꞥēł8753452]

Escrito originalmente por Apteryx:

I'm a trans girl and honestly female clothes are so much more comfortable than male clothing.

Although I do agree that gender stereotypes and standards are very dumb. If I could control what people think ( that's a bad idea, by the way. Don't give me that kind of power), I would eliminate gender standards. If a girl wants to wear jeans that don't have more holes in them than swiss cheese, then so be it. She doesn't need to be called a tomboy or a lesbian (unless she is lesbian, which is fine). If a guy wants to wear a skirt because he thinks it's cute, let him. It doesn't automatically make him gay or a bottom or whatever they say now.

Gender norms have even leaked into gaming culture. We've all seen the memes about what happens when a girl joins the voice chat of a competitive game, yet why can't a girl sit down and play some Call of Duty with her friends? Why was one of my friends called a gay femboy because he played Stardew Valley? None of this makes sense, although I am biased. Maybe there is a reason behind all of this that I'm not seeing. If there is, please let me know

I suppose the idea was that men and women are inclined to certain habits and things.

Though in reality it's not so black and white. Some women are more masculine, some men more feminine.

Imho, people shouldn't try and meddle with peoples habits, just let people naturally gravitate towards things and don't try and force people into linear paths.

Let people live by their nature and that very nature will lead them where things need to be.

Most people dislike snobs who stick their noses into everything. These people need to go.

[Shodan]

Escrito originalmente por Triple G:

Escrito originalmente por Shodan:

What's the point of something like "they / them" pronouns?

It´s when You don´t know the correct pronoun. Imho that´s a point at which language is taken a bit too serious, and again works different in English, than in other languages, as in English most of the accompanying nouns wouldn´t change. Like a teacher is a teacher, no matter if it´s male, female or neutral.

But here it´s like instead of using the standard male form - using the female form, which is longer and expands on the male form, while we can´t use "they", as any of the pronouns has actually a use, while "they" would also be the same word than "she", with the difference that the latter is used for one person, and the former for many people.

While we use this by default as the formal pronoun to talk to people. You would ask "Do they want more?" instead of "Do You want more?" if You don´t know the adult person and haven´t agreed on "You", while usually the older person, or the one who is higher in the hierarchy would offer to address them with "You" - or ask for it. If it´s about being conservative with it - which isn´t as strict nowadays any more, and people would more often use "You" by default, which is nice...

Else i still think there´s a lot of overthinking involved in it.

Oh, I know about singular they, that one exists since the Medieval era and there's nothing wrong with that. I meant, people who willingly declare that they always want to be referred to as "they / them" or even something like "he / they" and stuff like that.

Once again, if someone wants to do that and dress hwoever they want and so on and so on, whatever, I won't get in anyone's way as it's none of my business, but I'm just discussing it here since these are "Discussions" after all, that's all. I just find it unnecessarily complicated and confusing, and for what? Basically, I just think that all this sex, gender, pronoun and whatever stuff should be entirely disconnected from personality, interests, preferences, fashion sense and so on.

I feel like it would be simpler that way and less stereotypical because, after all, the whole purpose of all these changes is breaking stereotypes, apparently, but it's just that I don't see how this is breaking stereotypes instead of just further enforcing them, just with more flexibility to choose your stereotype among many of them instead of just being the one and only "assigned" one.

So yeah, more is "allowed" this way, that's a good thing, but I just find it so complicated and confusing with the whole terminology and all those pronouns and everything. Like I said in the original post, defining a gay person at this point could result in different answers depending on who you ask. By "who you ask", I'm thinking of people who actually support all this stuff, not some random ultra-conservatives or something.

Oh and, extra clarification:

I'm not talking about people with dysphoria who, in short, wish things were different and want to make such changes. I mean, someone who's been doing whatever they wanted to all along, no dysphoria, no hormone or any other therapy or surgery and so on, then all of a sudden, they announce "from now on, refer to me as they / them" and then proceed to do everything that they did before, still no therapy or surgery or anything. What's the point? Changing your pronouns doesn't suddenly let you to do things you couldn't do before.

[Xero_Daxter]

I hate it when people assume I am trans. I am not. I am just a boy who dresses up/cosplays as a girl.

[Abaddon the Despoiler]

Escrito originalmente por Xero_Daxter:

I hate it when people assume I am trans. I am not. I am just a boy who dresses up/cosplays as a girl.

And how are people supposed to know the difference, when a lot of "trans" people are just the same?

[Computer]

Scientists say there may be no human males in a few thousand years due to shrinking & extinction of Y chromosome.

https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/26/y-chromosome-vanishing-will-happen-men-20347731/

[Apteryx]

Honestly gender and gender norms are a thing entirely made up by society. The only concrete thing is anatomy, and nowadays even that can be changed. I can confirm since I have first hand experience with that. Do whatever you want. If you are biologically a thing that society defines as "a man" but you want to wear socks that are marketed towards what society has decided to be "a woman", then you do that.

Besides, the concept that skirts and pants are gendered articles of clothing is a recent concept. If you look at carvings from the roman era, for example, everyone wore flowy clothing that looked like dresses, and the armor of the roman legionnaires includes something that looks just like a skirt. In fact, skirts are better at hiding a guy's privates than pants, which is yet another reason why we should do way with gender norms

[Shodan]

Escrito originalmente por Apteryx:

Honestly gender and gender norms are a thing entirely made up by society. The only concrete thing is anatomy, and nowadays even that can be changed. I can confirm since I have first hand experience with that. Do whatever you want. If you are biologically a thing that society defines as "a man" but you want to wear socks that are marketed towards what society has decided to be "a woman", then you do that.

Besides, the concept that skirts and pants are gendered articles of clothing is a recent concept. If you look at carvings from the roman era, for example, everyone wore flowy clothing that looked like dresses, and the armor of the roman legionnaires includes something that looks just like a skirt. In fact, skirts are better at hiding a guy's privates than pants, which is yet another reason why we should do way with gender norms

I couldn't agree more. Yeah, skirts were common even for those really strict and brutal armies, then there were all kinds of fancy and long dresses for kings, then there's the Scottish tradition and so on. Long hair for men in the 70s and 80s, also Beatles in the 60s and so on. Also, I highly doubt they had proper pants in the Stone Age, just more like something you wrap around yourself. So, as I've been saying, if it changes with time and varies from culture to culture, then is it really a gender thing or just a matter of culture and trends? That's why I'm questioning this whole gender idea and redefining everything based on it. Either way, dysphoria is still a thing, of course, no matter what you call all the other stuff.

I read all other comments I didn't reply to, just don't see anything to add.

[Scott, President of Dominos]

Simple, people are searching for a physical identity before digital identity makes it obsolete.

The future isn’t in the human body, it’s in the machine.