Germany and Japan were the evil of the world in WW2

[LOKKD]

Germany and Japan were the evil of the world in WW2, but why didn't they drop the atomic bomb on Germany?

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Morkonan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh kingjames488:

cuz germany got stuck with the whole holocaust thing for the rest of human history apparently... despite the japanese doing the same sort of thing.

japan got the atom bombs, germany got all their scientist stolen and labeled as nazis forever.

Japan did not do the "same sort of thing." Nazi Germany industrialized the murder of civilians in purpose-built and professionally managed... human slaughterhouses.

Japanese soldiers could be brutal, especially towards the Chinese and others in conquered territories. Their treatment of prisoners is infamous, too. Though, they made some semblance at trying to treat Western PoWs less harshly, if that can be believed.

Several Japanese generals on the mainland actively ordered the sacking of cities. Knowing full well what that would entail, and the loss of military discipline it engendered.

Several more simply took no action to stop it, given that more-influential generals had already ordered sackings.

By the time they had western PoWs there was no organized belief regarding what to do about civillian populations or PoWs among Japan's high command, and as a result individual commanders were left up to their own devices. Although they did have direct orders from Hirohito to treat them as well as possible, and the people who listened were a mixed bag.

Unit 731 wound up with a few intelligence agents for example, most of whom didn't surive.

So this sounds like a technical "they didn't build the European-style genocide bins, so they didn't try to do it" rather than an explicit "they did no such things." Meanwhile nobody can agree on just how many Chinese civllians they killed, some saying upwards of 30 or 40m, some saying literally only 100,000 because that's all the generals cared to report.

[Xero_Daxter]

Is it justified to kill innocent people to prevent more deaths?

Hypothetically if you were given a choice to kill 10 innocent people to prevent 100 deaths would you do it?

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Xero_Daxter:

Is it justified to kill innocent people to prevent more deaths?

Hypothetically if you were given a choice to kill 10 innocent people to prevent 100 deaths would you do it?

Given the context of the war as a global population reduction measure, no. That's not the right answer, those 100 deaths are only being threatened due to poor management and this is never going to be a solution to that.

But in an abstract form, sure. Killing 10 or 20 specific Japanese generals might have prevented the coup which lead to the war. Although there'd be another 10 or 20 in a few years, so probably not.

[Morkonan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Birds:

...
So this sounds like a technical "they didn't build the European-style genocide bins, so they didn't try to do it" rather than an explicit "they did no such things." Meanwhile nobody can agree on just how many Chinese civllians they killed, some saying upwards of 30 or 40m, some saying literally only 100,000 because that's all the generals cared to report.

The treatment of PoWs is separate from their treatment of civilian populations - That is very true. AFAIK. IMO,, all death tolls from all wars, no matter how meticulous (and there's little reason for it to be) are under-reported.

But, Japan was still conscious of the need to protect.. its "image" when it came down to the treatment of PoWs. Japanese commanders, for the most part I think, were well-aware of the potential for being accused of "war crimes" by fellow combatants. But, where civilians were concerned that was less of a problem. No witnesses, no evidence... And, if potential witnesses have guns pointed at their head, so much the better.

There's also wartime expediency to consider and one's notion of that can differ, depending on interpretation and values...

The problem wasn't "orders," Some practices don't need "orders" to be evidenced. it was simply that anyone who wasn't Japanese wasn't really... well... wasn't more than a "foreign devil." (Hijacking what was more of the later Chinese Communist sentiment, here.) The cultural meme of their time was that Japanese were a divine race led by what amounted to a living god. While I don't know how many actually believed that, it did lead to practices that treated others as less than human, which is required to justify the most heinous acts imaginable. Once someone is dehumanized, that's when the Bad Things start.

But, Japanese soldiers towards the end of the war may have been in much the same situation as some PoWs in terms of available facilities, supplies, medicine/etc. In their eyes, prisoners may have been treated well by comparison, considering they were prisoners. Their feelings about being subjected to that status are pretty clear and very personal.

Medical experimentation on prisoners did occur. I don't recall if any combatant PoWs were used. But, despite the results being horrifying, it wasn't a systematically approached imperative like the "Death Camps" were in Nazi Germany.

They're not comparable, IMO. That there are instances where the outcomes were similar due to similar attitudes/beliefs don't make them "the same." ("Atrocities" often have similar results, but different motivations.)

PS: Just pulling stuff from my brainstuffs, so it's all just opinion. I think sources would support it, though, otherwise I would have dug for refs. :)

Also PPS - I am aware of the trend to demonize the enemy losers and celebrate the righteous allied victors, and try to guard against that sort of thing.

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Morkonan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Birds:

...
So this sounds like a technical "they didn't build the European-style genocide bins, so they didn't try to do it" rather than an explicit "they did no such things." Meanwhile nobody can agree on just how many Chinese civllians they killed, some saying upwards of 30 or 40m, some saying literally only 100,000 because that's all the generals cared to report.

The treatment of PoWs is separate from their treatment of civilian populations - That is very true. AFAIK. IMO,, all death tolls from all wars, no matter how meticulous (and there's little reason for it to be) are under-reported.

But, Japan was still conscious of the need to protect.. its "image" when it came down to the treatment of PoWs. Japanese commanders, for the most part I think, were well-aware of the potential for being accused of "war crimes" by fellow combatants. But, where civilians were concerned that was less of a problem. No witnesses, no evidence... And, if potential witnesses have guns pointed at their head, so much the better.

There's also wartime expediency to consider and one's notion of that can differ, depending on interpretation and values...

The problem wasn't "orders," Some practices don't need "orders" to be evidenced. it was simply that anyone who wasn't Japanese wasn't really... well... wasn't more than a "foreign devil." (Hijacking what was more of the later Chinese Communist sentiment, here.) The cultural meme of their time was that Japanese were a divine race led by what amounted to a living god. While I don't know how many actually believed that, it did lead to practices that treated others as less than human, which is required to justify the most heinous acts imaginable. Once someone is dehumanized, that's when the Bad Things start.

But, Japanese soldiers towards the end of the war may have been in much the same situation as some PoWs in terms of available facilities, supplies, medicine/etc. In their eyes, prisoners may have been treated well by comparison, considering they were prisoners. Their feelings about being subjected to that status are pretty clear and very personal.

Medical experimentation on prisoners did occur. I don't recall if any combatant PoWs were used. But, despite the results being horrifying, it wasn't a systematically approached imperative like the "Death Camps" were in Nazi Germany.

They're not comparable, IMO. That there are instances where the outcomes were similar due to similar attitudes/beliefs don't make them "the same." ("Atrocities" often have similar results, but different motivations.)

PS: Just pulling stuff from my brainstuffs, so it's all just opinion. I think sources would support it, though, otherwise I would have dug for refs. :)

Also PPS - I am aware of the trend to demonize the enemy losers and celebrate the righteous allied victors, and try to guard against that sort of thing.

As far as I understand it, Hirohito specifically said that Japan should treat its PoWs well for the sake of Japanese PoWs. The response from the independent confederation of generals that ran the country was a mixture of "nah they don't care about us anyway" and "I don't really have control over my unit" and "well okay I'll tell them." So saying anything unified about their response or their reasoning is circumspect, imo.

So on the subject of "orders," there was no military hierarchy present. There was a political one playing itself out in the military, and that utterly ruined its unified purpose. Saying "Japan" did anything during this time period is difficult, as it's much closer to a conglomeration of extremist factions and clan interests. Most of which were corporate, like the United Fruit Company was.

Thus why many of the anti-war clans were attempting to halt Germany by assisting Russia, to remove the warhawk's justifications and allies.

In that context Japan's army behaved in line with other 'leaderless' armies of raiders.

For all its apparent unity Germany suffered from similar issues. It's hard to view the nazi's control of the bureaucracy as any different from a clan war causing a coup, and the systemization of the slaughter just another series of sackings happening. This time on their own turf. Just like in a civil war.

Confiscating Jewish people's goods and services was the entire point of the practice, just like the Japanese interment camps on the US' west coast.

[Bagel]

Diposting pertama kali oleh 76561199496528836:

Germany and Japan were the evil of the world in WW2, but why didn't they drop the atomic bomb on Germany?

Because unlike today, people back then knew who the bigger evil is.

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Donut:

Diposting pertama kali oleh 76561199496528836:

Germany and Japan were the evil of the world in WW2, but why didn't they drop the atomic bomb on Germany?

Because unlike today, people back then knew who the bigger evil is.

yeah, me personally.

[Paratech2008]

I guess kidnapping and gang ♥♥♥♥♥♥ comfort women never happened, even though decades later it was admitted.

[Arthur, King of the Britons]

They touched our boats.

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tex:

Nuking fascists isn't a crime.

well they missed the fascists, who were in a different city entirely, and just "randomly" bombed the anti-war faction and a city full of civillians.

[Birds]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Paratech2008:

I guess kidnapping and gang ♥♥♥♥♥♥ comfort women never happened, even though decades later it was admitted.

nah they still deny that, and also deny they were japanese citizens. or koreans.

they won't talk about who they were though.

[Pocahawtness]

Diposting pertama kali oleh N3tRunn3r:

nuking japan was a "field test" and a crime

in meantime the invention of the nuke began in germany before .. but they could never finish it due to the war. and einstein and wernher von braun left germany during the war ... also germany developed the beautiful Nuclear Artillery[en.wikipedia.org] during the war, which then the US had stolen these blueprints from germany and finished its invention afterwards..

P.s.:

Japan surely wasnt the "Evil", they tried to get back their lands for centuries which are regions of within china today. china claims just everything to their own ...


If Churchill hadnt cried that much, the US would had never intervened in War as the US were allies/neutral to Germany, even after Germany shot US supply ships for the UK the US ignored that..

.. and the world would be a better world and a better place today ..


US-Germany coalition, and Japan against Communism !!

Well, no, not quite.

There was no real effort in Germany to invent the weapon. Hitler knew it was just too expensive. The same was true in Britain. It was Britain that pushed America to develop the bomb, because they couldn't afford the development and the USA could.

There were no German plans that would actually work. Germany was far less advanced than myth would have it.

Nope, America poured money and resources in to developing a bomb and they deserve the credit for it.

America was divided about joining the war. It was the Japanese who dragged america in, but once in, many American politicians wanted to help out in Europe.

I am not convinced that America saw the danger of Russia at the time. Maybe they did, but the British wanted to continue the war to push the Russians back, America didn't.

The Americans did need to drop the bomb. Japan had mobilised a force of 3 million who were prepared to fight to the death. Had they not dropped the bomb the casualties would have been far worse.

America changed the terms of surrender to try to get the Japanese to surrender but they actually took it the wrong way and saw it as a weakness. As such the Americans had no choice but to drop the bomb.

There was no need to test the bomb. America knew what it would do. Although it has to be said that they deliberately targeted cities with wooden buildings. They knew it would create a fire-storm and blow most of them down.

[xDDD]

Honestly every side did evil things during WW2
But nuking Germany was not necessary at all. They already firebombed and blew up a ton of dams, plus Germany was already losing.

[Birds]

Well, FDR really wanted into the war. He thought that what Germany was doing was reprehensible.

He also backed the English oil embargo that caused Japan to attack China, in turn causing Japan to attack the US. In an attack where only outdated warships were destroyed.

Saying he had a poor grasp of global economics is the only rational explanation that preserves his integrity.

The US was priming Japan against communism literally within one year of occupation, and the anti-war faction would have been considered communism-adjacent if they hadn't been nuked out of existence.

[De Hollandse Ezel]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dan Tucker:

Diposting pertama kali oleh De Hollandse Ezel:

oh they do.. and it is full of lies..

those who had parents actually IN that war know it was not as black and white.. many german soldiers were perfectly fine guys.. not doing any warcrimes.. and just caught in a bad situation.. many in the regulair wehrmacht hated the ss.. and what they did.

likewise the americans were not the heroes.. they clearly had their own agenda and they too did many warcrimes...

I just have to point at a black atlete of usa and how he experienced the games in berlin vs coming back home in usa.. as a small example...

amereica was far from all good and germany was far from all bad.
we should not let history be only written by the victor but tell the story at it was that wars are messy and good and evil excists on both sides..

Yeah nobody is innocent in war. It isn't the good vs. evil that it's made out to be but the allies definitely did good in removing Hitler. Still, the U.S and the allies did messed up stuff like hiring the remaining N4zis for cold war operations.

oh hitler, the ss and the holocaust were terrible..

but there was a large part of the german army many were just ww1 veterans.. who fought fair..
rommel was generally respected.. sure he was a foe.. but than again europeans are no stranger to trying to replace a border.. as long as you uphold the rules of war.. and not attack civillians or use any warcrimes.. one can be enemies and still respect the foe..

"the first nation occupied was germany itself"

I can list stories.. of germans soldiers who sneaked food the the starving people of my country.. who were very sad when they heared those vile americans bombed their children and wife to death...

who were on the recieving end of those warcrimes...
not ALL germans were ss or nazi.. even many were not that wore the uniform.
there was a big differerence between normal soldier and the ss..

likewise I believe many american soldiers fought with the best intentions.. but those who decieded and did bomb dresden.. or plotted and did drop those nukes on japan.. did warcrimes.. and should have been tried in a tribunal same as the german warcriminals..
there is a code of conduct even if war..