Abortion is a woman's right and must not be taken away from her

[Bobbyk]

Abortion is a woman's right and must not be taken away from her, she has a right to decide about her body. Abortion up to 12 weeks should be legal.

[Skkooomer Lord]

Someone has to look after the child. The payment is for the child.

All based on nuclear family.

[Zoopy]

引用自 Dom：

The man should've thought about wanting or not wanting when they decided to give their fluids leading to pregnancy.

And the woman should have decided on wanting or not wanting a baby before she decided to let the man slide between her legs.

Again, this goes both ways. It takes two people to have intercourse and make a baby. You're making it sound like the woman has no say in the matter or can't make an informed decision. That's weird.

[Dom]

引用自 Zoopy：

引用自 Dom：

The man should've thought about wanting or not wanting when they decided to give their fluids leading to pregnancy.

And the woman should have decided on wanting or not wanting a baby before she decided to let the man slide between her legs.

Again, this goes both ways. It takes two people to have intercourse and make a baby. You're making it sound like the woman has no say in the matter or can't make an informed decision. That's weird.

You're making it sound like the man should have no responsibilities when it comes to sharing their fluids. That there should be some kind of opt-out mechanism afterwards.

Women have a huge responsibility, already. In both scenarios they have to go through quite a heavy medical procedure (birth or abortion).

You want men to have none, while women have... that. Yikes.

[Boblin the Goblin]

引用自 Dom：

引用自 Zoopy：

And the woman should have decided on wanting or not wanting a baby before she decided to let the man slide between her legs.

Again, this goes both ways. It takes two people to have intercourse and make a baby. You're making it sound like the woman has no say in the matter or can't make an informed decision. That's weird.

You're making it sound like the man should have no responsibilities when it comes to sharing their fluids. That there should be some kind of opt-out mechanism afterwards.

Women have a huge responsibility, already. In both scenarios they have to go through quite a heavy medical procedure (birth or abortion).

You want men to have none, while women have... that. Yikes.

He literally didn't say that.

[videomike_Ultimate_Plushie]

引用自 Dom：

引用自 videomike_Ultimate_Plushie：

No men don't, at all. If a woman gets ahold of his sperm and gets pregnant with it, guess who now has to pay child support. Why do you think Sperm Banks have a full contract that says "you are not responsible for a resulting child." We don't have autonomy. Now let's parrot your own words back at you.

"The woman have bodily autonomy when it comes to sleeping with a man and taking the thing into that box without protection (contraception)."

If you demand that this line can't be used against a woman demanding an abortion, then you don't get to use the same line against a man wanting right of paternal abandonment that woman have by means of abortion.I hope you aren't going to try and be openly sexist to try and defend this state.

The woman cannot have an abortion once a certain stage has passed, other than in special occasions (such as life being in danger). They do not have a full control of the situation & developments either.

There's a contract so that it makes things clearer. Assuming the man has decided to get the woman pregnant, fully consensual - but later on just decides that they do not want to become a father, or take care of the child. This obviously is not OK.
The contract proves that there was understanding (lack of responsibility) from the beginning and works as legal defense.

Likewise I don't think man should have to pay child support if they were raped. Unfortunately, there are cases where this has happened - I think that is wrong. But as long as the man has, with full consent, done it - I think they bear the responsibility. Women cannot get pregnant without men's natural resources, remember.

So men are on the giving end, so obviously their role is a bit different too.

Okay, again, so in your belief telling a woman she must deal with the consequences of having sex by potentially risking a 9 month state of suffering to birth the child, is grossly unacceptable to the point that government should force doctors to give proceedures and/or treatments they may disagree with.....but telling the man that he must deal with the consequences of having sex by face an 18 year wage slavery is somehow perfectly fine by you?!

Stopping here, there is no further discussion. This is open discrimination against one gender over the other. Plain and simple misandry, you can make up whatever broad conceptual moralization you want but you are demanding the man must face a risk of 18 year wage slavery every time he has sex, but a woman need not suffer even 9 months to the point it should be given the same level as freedom of speech and right to not be experimented on by the government!

Do you grasp the gross misandry here?

[Dom]

引用自 videomike_Ultimate_Plushie：

引用自 Dom：

The woman cannot have an abortion once a certain stage has passed, other than in special occasions (such as life being in danger). They do not have a full control of the situation & developments either.

There's a contract so that it makes things clearer. Assuming the man has decided to get the woman pregnant, fully consensual - but later on just decides that they do not want to become a father, or take care of the child. This obviously is not OK.
The contract proves that there was understanding (lack of responsibility) from the beginning and works as legal defense.

Likewise I don't think man should have to pay child support if they were raped. Unfortunately, there are cases where this has happened - I think that is wrong. But as long as the man has, with full consent, done it - I think they bear the responsibility. Women cannot get pregnant without men's natural resources, remember.

So men are on the giving end, so obviously their role is a bit different too.

Okay, again, so in your belief telling a woman she must deal with the consequences of having sex by potentially risking a 9 month state of suffering to birth the child, is grossly unacceptable to the point that government should force doctors to give proceedures and/or treatments they may disagree with.....but telling the man that he must deal with the consequences of having sex by face an 18 year wage slavery is somehow perfectly fine by you?!

Stopping here, there is no further discussion. This is open discrimination against one gender over the other. Plain and simple misandry, you can make up whatever broad conceptual moralization you want but you are demanding the man must face a risk of 18 year wage slavery every time he has sex, but a woman need not suffer even 9 months to the point it should be given the same level as freedom of speech and right to not be experimented on by the government!

Do you grasp the gross misandry here?

The woman deals with the consequences quite harshly; they will have to go through a medical procedure, whether it's birth or abortion. Both of these are quite heavy ones.

Men have nothing like that. In fact, if we take the child support responsibility away, the man would then ultimately have no responsibilities, whereas the woman would still have to choose between those 2 medical procedures. It just wouldn't be fair from the standpoint of women.

This isn't discrimination. This is equality.

[Zoopy]

引用自 Dom：

You're making it sound like the man should have no responsibilities when it comes to sharing their fluids. That there should be some kind of opt-out mechanism afterwards.

Women have a huge responsibility, already. In both scenarios they have to go through quite a heavy medical procedure (birth or abortion).

You want men to have none, while women have... that. Yikes.

That's exactly what I'm saying. If a woman can decide whether to abort or not, a man should be able to decide whether he wants to support and raise a child for 18 years or not. Condoms break, the pill fails. It should not be a reason to have 18 years of your life ruined while you have no say in the matter.

I'm not saying that man should get off scott-free (and I've said this in a previous post), but beyond paying for the abortion or paying part of the pregnancy bills, it's not fair to force a child on a man who doesn't want it. Obviously the reality wouldn't be so simply and each case would have to be investigated on its own merits, but a blanket "you'll have a child and you'll have no say in the matter and you'll like it!!!" policy is not equality.

Everything you've said so far to justify your views applies to women as well. If a man needs to think twice before "spreading his fluids", then a woman needs to think twice before allowing the man to have sex with her. In a situation where two consenting adults (hopefully) have intercourse and accept the risks, it's unfair to imply that only one of them has the right to decide over the future for both of them.

You don't want equality. That much is clear. So to you I say double yikes.

[Zoopy]

A great quote from Wikipedia itself:

Laurie Shrage, professor of philosophy and women's and gender studies, questions whether men should be 'penalized for being sexually active', and she puts the subject in the perspective of feminists who had to fight the same idea with different gender portent, namely that consenting to sexual intercourse is not the same as consenting to parenthood. Furthermore, both men and children are punished, according to professor Shrage; children have to live with an absent father who never 'voluntarily' became a parent.[12][13]

[If] women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.

At most, according to Brake, men should be responsible for helping with the medical expenses and other costs of a pregnancy for which they are partly responsible.

Interestingly, there is overlap between masculists and feminists on this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_abortion

[videomike_Ultimate_Plushie]

引用自 Dom：

引用自 videomike_Ultimate_Plushie：

Okay, again, so in your belief telling a woman she must deal with the consequences of having sex by potentially risking a 9 month state of suffering to birth the child, is grossly unacceptable to the point that government should force doctors to give proceedures and/or treatments they may disagree with.....but telling the man that he must deal with the consequences of having sex by face an 18 year wage slavery is somehow perfectly fine by you?!

Stopping here, there is no further discussion. This is open discrimination against one gender over the other. Plain and simple misandry, you can make up whatever broad conceptual moralization you want but you are demanding the man must face a risk of 18 year wage slavery every time he has sex, but a woman need not suffer even 9 months to the point it should be given the same level as freedom of speech and right to not be experimented on by the government!

Do you grasp the gross misandry here?

The woman deals with the consequences quite harshly; they will have to go through a medical procedure, whether it's birth or abortion. Both of these are quite heavy ones.

Men have nothing like that. In fact, if we take the child support responsibility away, the man would then ultimately have no responsibilities, whereas the woman would still have to choose between those 2 medical procedures. It just wouldn't be fair from the standpoint of women.

This isn't discrimination. This is equality.

18, year, WAGE, SLAVERY. That is all. You can try and moralize it all you want but you are doing exactly what I said. You're telling one sex they dont so much as need to suffer 9 months of pregnancy as a risk of having sex, but tell the other half of the population you want them to be suffer 18 -years- of slavery as their risk of having sex. It open misandry, and no amount of trying to play god and enforcing your whim of suffering on someone is going to suddenly make that anything but grossly inhumane.

[Jefft]

As someone who is currently pregnant. I agree.

Gonna probably get hate for this too but I've also had an abortion before. It does play on my mind but I am grateful to be able to do so as it wasn't the right time in life. Now is a much better time, and this bubba is being kept and loved unconditionally when it's born. But I'm glad to be able to have made that choice.

[Zoopy]

And again, I'm not saying fathers should be able to get a paper abortion when the mother is 8 months pregnant. That right should only be guaranteed so long as it is possible for the woman to legally get an abortion.

[Dracoco OwO]

I think peoples are wrong to frame womens over the aborting they have done, i know personally of 2 womens who had to abort due to their love interest/husband and it took a toll on their mental health, they've been real sad to lose their kids, you have to understand it's still a sad decision but in several situations this is also a reasonable choice.

[Jefft]

引用自 videomike_Ultimate_Plushie：

引用自 Dom：

The woman deals with the consequences quite harshly; they will have to go through a medical procedure, whether it's birth or abortion. Both of these are quite heavy ones.

Men have nothing like that. In fact, if we take the child support responsibility away, the man would then ultimately have no responsibilities, whereas the woman would still have to choose between those 2 medical procedures. It just wouldn't be fair from the standpoint of women.

This isn't discrimination. This is equality.

18, year, WAGE, SLAVERY. That is all. You can try and moralize it all you want but you are doing exactly what I said. You're telling one sex they dont so much as need to suffer 9 months of pregnancy as a risk of having sex, but tell the other half of the population you want them to be suffer 18 -years- of slavery as their risk of having sex. It open misandry, and no amount of trying to play god and enforcing your whim of suffering on someone is going to suddenly make that anything but grossly inhumane.

I don't disagree with your point, but I'd like to add that it's not 'slavery'. Parenthood has its struggles but also quite fulfilling. You bet your ass I'm excited to have a little co op buddy as well as have something else to spend money on that's not my cat (who I've spent more on this month than myself..).

I'm totally prepared for it to be a selfless act, but its not slavery.

[Zoopy]

引用自 Jamie Skateboard：

I don't disagree with your point, but I'd like to add that it's not 'slavery'. Parenthood has its struggles but also quite fulfilling. You bet your ass I'm excited to have a little co op buddy as well as have something else to spend money on that's not my cat (who I've spent more on this month than myself..).

I'm totally prepared for it to be a selfless act, but its not slavery.

I think they're not saying parenthood is slavery, but rather that forcing a man to pay child support for a child he didn't want is slavery.

[Dom]

引用自 Zoopy：

引用自 Dom：

You're making it sound like the man should have no responsibilities when it comes to sharing their fluids. That there should be some kind of opt-out mechanism afterwards.

Women have a huge responsibility, already. In both scenarios they have to go through quite a heavy medical procedure (birth or abortion).

You want men to have none, while women have... that. Yikes.

That's exactly what I'm saying. If a woman can decide whether to abort or not, a man should be able to decide whether he wants to support and raise a child for 18 years or not. Condoms break, the pill fails. It should not be a reason to have 18 years of your life ruined while you have no say in the matter.

I'm not saying that man should get off scott-free (and I've said this in a previous post), but beyond paying for the abortion or paying part of the pregnancy bills, it's not fair to force a child on a man who doesn't want it. Obviously the reality wouldn't be so simply and each case would have to be investigated on its own merits, but a blanket "you'll have a child and you'll have no say in the matter and you'll like it!!!" policy is not equality.

Everything you've said so far to justify your views applies to women as well. If a man needs to think twice before "spreading his fluids", then a woman needs to think twice before allowing the man to have sex with her. In a situation where two consenting adults (hopefully) have intercourse and accept the risks, it's unfair to imply that only one of them has the right to decide over the future for both of them.

You don't want equality. That much is clear. So to you I say double yikes.

There's a possibility to find common solutions to rare situations where contraception may fail. The point is, the responsibility of the man shines during that intercourse and the responsibility of the woman shines after the intercourse.

The woman acknowledges that she has to go through a harsh medical procedure (either birth or abortion), and the man acknowledges that they may have to pay for the child support. Not to mention the woman has to pay as well if they choose to give birth. To me, that seems like an extremely fair balance where both sides have responsibilities and consequences once proceeded. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be fair.