Do sociopaths deserve life?

[PsychoPsyops]

It’s not like they have feelings or anything. Literally overgrown bugs.

[Volfogg]

Escrito originalmente por hehexd:

Escrito originalmente por Volfogg:

Really? Is it 'everyone' or only 'you' with an excuse? You see an 'obstacle', you want it removed by any means necessary. We aren't so much different, which pains me greatly.

And yet you think you have some sort of "extreme morality license" to judge people.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and assuming I'm only looking out for myself, thats your own downfall and self-referencing, not mine. That "extreme morality license" is simply an unimpaired mind that knows radical societal reform is required to reduce a lot of suffering in others. The 'excuse' would be the damage they undeniably cause

I'm not convinced.

You mention 'harm' and 'suffering' a lot. Does it stem from some unresolved past issue or something?

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por Volfogg:

Escrito originalmente por hehexd:

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and assuming I'm only looking out for myself, thats your own downfall and self-referencing, not mine. That "extreme morality license" is simply an unimpaired mind that knows radical societal reform is required to reduce a lot of suffering in others. The 'excuse' would be the damage they undeniably cause

I'm not convinced.

You mention 'harm' and 'suffering' a lot. Does it stem from some unresolved past issue or something?

Of course, why would that detract from anything mentioned. Many others have been through situations like me being damaged by those with cluster B personalities. You're not really making any developmental points

[skOsH♥]

Escrito originalmente por Birds:

I think you're trying to ask whether criminals deserve life, or if Minority Report makes sense.

Kind of feel the same way

[Volfogg]

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Escrito originalmente por Volfogg:

I'm not convinced.

You mention 'harm' and 'suffering' a lot. Does it stem from some unresolved past issue or something?

Of course, why would that detract from anything mentioned. Many others have been through situations like me being damaged by those with cluster B personalities. You're not really making any developmental points

Hmm... "Many others" and "like me" might be actually key words explaining reason for such extreme behavior. Predictable. This is just getting more and more suspicious. And people think I'm the strange one.

[Pocahawtness]

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Escrito originalmente por Scary👻Pocah:

Of course you can.

There are plenty of people in this world who have bad labels, but who are law abiding, good citizen!

There is a deterrent aspect to the law and it certainly works.

Also, just because someone feels no empathy doesn't mean they don't listen to teachings that tell them it's wrong to kill.

That's why its not illegal to have a label.

Those people still manipulate and damage others, even if they dont murder them. For some reason people defend evil just because it doesnt physically murder the victim. Now thats insane

No they don't. You just can't go making assumptions like that and accusing people of crimes they may have never committed.

If you follow on the logic of your viewpoint, all people should be "assessed" by a psychiatrist at an early age and killed if they do not meet "your standard".

But as I have already said, many such people don't commit crimes. You can't kill people who according to the law have done nothing wrong. That makes you far worse than the people you are killing.

I mean I hate to be the one to tell you this, but did it occur to you that you have absolutely no empathy for these people, and that you, yourself, may fail the very test you would like to implement?

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por Volfogg:

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Of course, why would that detract from anything mentioned. Many others have been through situations like me being damaged by those with cluster B personalities. You're not really making any developmental points

Hmm... "Many others" and "like me" might be actually key words explaining reason for such extreme behavior. Predictable. This is just getting more and more suspicious. And people think I'm the strange one.

Nobody thinks you're strange other than your introjects of others you've created in your mind. The experiences might differ between persons, but trauma and the effect of it on the mind is very similar. If you have problems with change and view it as 'extreme' then you have some issues yourself you clearly need to work on. Society at large will change with time most likely anyway

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por Scary👻Pocah:

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Those people still manipulate and damage others, even if they dont murder them. For some reason people defend evil just because it doesnt physically murder the victim. Now thats insane

No they don't. You just can't go making assumptions like that and accusing people of crimes they may have never committed.

If you follow on the logic of your viewpoint, all people should be "assessed" by a psychiatrist at an early age and killed if they do not meet "your standard".

But as I have already said, many such people don't commit crimes. You can't kill people who according to the law have done nothing wrong. That makes you far worse than the people you are killing.

I mean I hate to be the one to tell you this, but did it occur to you that you have absolutely no empathy for these people, and that you, yourself, may fail the very test you would like to implement?

Nah you're making assumptions, i never said killed, youre not following my logic because youve shut yourself off. One can be abused and not become a narcissist, another can go through simular abuse and become one. The problem people need to be identified.

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por Scary👻Pocah:

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Those people still manipulate and damage others, even if they dont murder them. For some reason people defend evil just because it doesnt physically murder the victim. Now thats insane

No they don't. You just can't go making assumptions like that and accusing people of crimes they may have never committed.

If you follow on the logic of your viewpoint, all people should be "assessed" by a psychiatrist at an early age and killed if they do not meet "your standard".

But as I have already said, many such people don't commit crimes. You can't kill people who according to the law have done nothing wrong. That makes you far worse than the people you are killing.

I mean I hate to be the one to tell you this, but did it occur to you that you have absolutely no empathy for these people, and that you, yourself, may fail the very test you would like to implement?

Silent crimes exist, manipulation, gaslighting, all abuse other than physical happens all the time on the daily. Does a mother or father who got abused have the right to do that to their kid? If you have empathy for people who cant change or learn then you actually need mental help

[Dutchgamer1982]

someone framed sociopaths as by defenition "evil"

this is not true.

if I take the defenition of sociopath :
- a sociopath lacks emphaty
**this means that where most humans suffer if they see others suffer an sociopath does not

they do have emotions, their own emotions.
they still can rationally grasp how their actions injure others, but they just don't feel emotions like remorse, they can still have rational thoughts of resposibility.

they still can be thought don't do onto others what you not want to happen unto you.
and in a way they can sometimes even be nicer to others.. doing so.

we humans tend to have great emphaty with those close to us.. but be brutally cold when strangers suffer.. a sociopath would rationally see both his mother dying and that stranger in some third world nation dying equally bad.

where sociopaths get dangerious is if they are also egocentric or worse narcistic.
**"

egocentrics are basicly the main player in their own life story, everybody and everything around them is vieuwed from them. they will still have emphaty, but find it harder to accept somebody does not like something they do like or visa versa.. all humans compare others to what is seen as normal.. it is just egocentrics see their own isolated vieuw as normal not that of the society they live in.

now strip the emphaty of a egocentric and you get a very dangerous individual akin to a banker or investor ruining many lives, oblivious to the damage, as he is in his own little bubble without the emphaty to relate.

narcists.. those are worse.. they actually believe their own lies.
where egocentrics merely look at the world from their own vieuw.. narcists only care about themselves.. others are just a way to reach their desires.
-> thinking of it.. narciscism may be what happens if you mix egocentrism with sociopath..
though not fully... narcicists still feel pain.. they are just very manipulative.. they overestimate what they can, believing their lies.. demand to be loved than blame others and turn violent on those who thought themselves to be their friends.. and again and again this cycle goes.
but narciscist.. still very much LOVE to hear how great they are.. (they cannot stand criticims)
a sociopath narcicist may no longer need that...
and become truelly only driven by whatever it gives itselfs please..

those are the murders who murder not for hate or lust but "cause I liked the sound of it"

***
just being (a mild) sociopath aka a bit of a loner.. does not make one evil.. or not care for others..
for example a doctor needs to be calm and calculated doing triage in a crisis deciding to save the most lives..
or an undertaker can't be all emotional when he cleans the bodies and prepares them for their last resting place and needs to run a financial responsible buisnuiss not grow soft and do it all for free..

you help people.. but it is a bit sociopathic cause you cannot be emotional involved.

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏:

Escrito originalmente por hehexd:

...
Not necessarily killed. Just identified, tagged and unable to access society at large such as the workplace.

I don't think that they should be segregated unless they actually commit violence (which is a crime, and therefore the law already says should result in segregation via prison), and I say this as someone who was actually negatively impacted by someone with BPD who took actions that most likely caused the cascade of events that came right after and were very damaging to me (still are).

The underlying approach here is also flawed for a few different reasons.

Not everyone who has these conditions will actually get identified in the first place, plus mis-classification can happen. Oh, and also, doctors tend to go to great lengths to avoid officially documenting or listing any conditions that could negatively impact their patients if they were to be included on their paperwork.

There are also people who cause the same problems yet have different conditions.

I think that a better approach would be for people to recognize that anyone with a "black hole personality" (not just cluster B disorders) should probably just be avoided, or at least only addressed in a professional context rather than a personal context, for their own well-being because you can't really trust your boss, teacher, authorities, or peers, to be responsible enough to do the next thing that I'm about to suggest :

I think that a better approach would include society in-general recognizing that people aren't always reasonable and not every loud complaint or expression of distress is actually going to be reasonable or have a valid basis to back it up. With that in mind, proper mediation tactics should be taught, implemented, and actually used to de-escalate conflicts, first and foremost, followed by proper contextualization and investigations into any claims made.

Yeah I agree with all that, well said. Black hole personality is a good way to describe them too, they didnt get to develop a proper ego

[Dutchgamer1982]

Escrito originalmente por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏:

Escrito originalmente por hehexd:

...
Not necessarily killed. Just identified, tagged and unable to access society at large such as the workplace.

I don't think that they should be segregated unless they actually commit violence (which is a crime, and therefore the law already says should result in segregation via prison), and I say this as someone who was actually negatively impacted by someone with BPD who took actions that most likely caused the cascade of events that came right after and were very damaging to me (still are).

The underlying approach here is also flawed for a few different reasons.

Not everyone who has these conditions will actually get identified in the first place, plus mis-classification can happen. Oh, and also, doctors tend to go to great lengths to avoid officially documenting or listing any conditions that could negatively impact their patients if they were to be included on their paperwork.

There are also people who cause the same problems yet have different conditions.

I think that a better approach would be for people to recognize that anyone with a "black hole personality" (not just cluster B disorders) should probably just be avoided, or at least only addressed in a professional context rather than a personal context, for their own well-being because you can't really trust your boss, teacher, authorities, or peers, to be responsible enough to do the next thing that I'm about to suggest :

I think that a better approach would include society in-general recognizing that people aren't always reasonable and not every loud complaint or expression of distress is actually going to be reasonable or have a valid basis to back it up. With that in mind, proper mediation tactics should be taught, implemented, and actually used to de-escalate conflicts, first and foremost, followed by proper contextualization and investigations into any claims made.

well on the one hand :

I think jails should serve to rrehabilitate NOT to punish

I even 1 up that and say the criminal code should not punish on what you did in the past but what you likely will do in future..

-if you did the most horrible crime, but there is 0 risk you do another than it is pointless for society to lock you up
-if you did nothing wrong, but there is a high risk you will do crime aka harm to society in the future, than you need to be locked up.

not all sociopaths are bad people.. but some are.. and thouse may need treatment before they can function in society.

ofcourse what is dangerous.. where to draw the line.... once you give a goverment the power to do that.. whats keeping them from rehabilitating people who merely protest gay rights or don't agree with woke policies, or any other opposition for that matter.

it is not ment for that.. but it could easely be abused for that..

judges are usually included to 1 on 1 copy the recomendation of a psychiatrist.. but psyiatrists have been proven to have clearly their own bias too.

[GunsForBucks]

Sociopaths don't walk around in cloak holding daggers. They are people like us who just have more ambition and ego.

My father is a good example. Genius graduated highschool at 12 back when they taught the classics and graduating highschool meant something. He would be 100 if still alive.

Ambitious and struggled out of the depression in NYC going off to war before pearl harbor because he thought it was right.

end of war married my mother, he was aiming for the diplomatic core and needed a wife for party hostess duty etc,

She got MS before they knew what it was and instead of my father believing in her due to love, he turned on her thinking she was just trying to sabotage his position.

Even after they discover MS and he finds out the truth... she was a liability to his ambition.
He drives her crazy with anger to appear insane in front of us kids so he won't have to pay child support.
Then, the real kicker to me, he comes to me crying telling me its my fault he has to suffer so much since he can't get a divorce because I am too young to be left at home.
He was trying to get me to kill myself... even set the room up dark and came in knowing I was depressed .. genius.

Later after the break up and living with him ... vacation time, but the dr said I need braces. Well he comes to me and makes me decide..."do you want to spoil the vacation for the whole family or get braces?" Found out later he did this to all my siblings as well.

The guy was so much of a coward he couldn't just make the decision and forces it on a kid.

The one time I called his bluff he was like "oh but I never thought you would pick that" Just a manipulator.

But if you didn't stand in his way? A charming man with lots of charisma, super intelligent and kept up on all the current events and acted all wise and philosophical. Even wrote a book on reincarnation.

I am sure he had no idea just how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up a human being he was. Most of my family does not see it either. They see the parts they saw but not the whole thing. I didn't realize how much I was messed up until I became disabled and my own success couldn't bury it anymore.

In many cases the sociopaths are us... always be on guard

I don't even talk to the new wife about this. All she has remarked on was his stubbornness when he wanted something, he made sure to get it. But I am sure he treated her well since he needed the young wife to care for him at home in the end. No need to spoil here love of him and she would probably think I am crazy for even thinking it.

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por GunsForBucks:

Sociopaths don't walk around in cloak holding daggers. They are people like us who just have more ambition and ego.

My father is a good example. Genius graduated highschool at 12 back when they taught the classics and graduating highschool meant something. He would be 100 if still alive.

Ambitious and struggled out of the depression in NYC going off to war before pearl harbor because he thought it was right.

end of war married my mother, he was aiming for the diplomatic core and needed a wife for party hostess duty etc,

She got MS before they knew what it was and instead of my father believing in her due to love, he turned on her thinking she was just trying to sabotage his position.

Even after they discover MS and he finds out the truth... she was a liability to his ambition.
He drives her crazy with anger to appear insane in front of us kids so he won't have to pay child support.
Then, the real kicker to me, he comes to me crying telling me its my fault he has to suffer so much since he can't get a divorce because I am too young to be left at home.
He was trying to get me to kill myself... even set the room up dark and came in knowing I was depressed .. genius.

Later after the break up and living with him ... vacation time, but the dr said I need braces. Well he comes to me and makes me decide..."do you want to spoil the vacation for the whole family or get braces?"

The guy was so much of a coward he couldn't just make the decision and forces it on a kid.

The one time I called his bluff he was like "oh but I never thought you would pick that" Just a manipulator.

But if you didn't stand in his way? A charming man with lots of charisma, super intelligent and kept up on all the current events and acted all wise and philosophical. Even wrote a book on reincarnation.

I am sure he had no idea just how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up a human being he was. Most of my family does not see it either. They see the parts they saw but not the whole thing. I didn't realize how much I was messed up until I became disabled and my own success couldn't bury it anymore.

In many cases the sociopaths are us... always be on guard

I don't even talk to the new wife about this. All she has remarked on was his stubbornness when he wanted something, he made sure to get it. But I am sure he treated her well since he needed the young wife to care for him at home in the end. No need to spoil here love of him and she would probably think I am crazy for even thinking it.

Yeah thats no father, thats an animal. Just because he served in the army doesnt mean he deserves respect either. Any idiot can head into conflict if they feel its right, me included. We have to parent ourselves in situations like that.

[GunsForBucks]

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Escrito originalmente por GunsForBucks:

Sociopaths don't walk around in cloak holding daggers. They are people like us who just have more ambition and ego.

My father is a good example. Genius graduated highschool at 12 back when they taught the classics and graduating highschool meant something. He would be 100 if still alive.

Ambitious and struggled out of the depression in NYC going off to war before pearl harbor because he thought it was right.

end of war married my mother, he was aiming for the diplomatic core and needed a wife for party hostess duty etc,

She got MS before they knew what it was and instead of my father believing in her due to love, he turned on her thinking she was just trying to sabotage his position.

Even after they discover MS and he finds out the truth... she was a liability to his ambition.
He drives her crazy with anger to appear insane in front of us kids so he won't have to pay child support.
Then, the real kicker to me, he comes to me crying telling me its my fault he has to suffer so much since he can't get a divorce because I am too young to be left at home.
He was trying to get me to kill myself... even set the room up dark and came in knowing I was depressed .. genius.

Later after the break up and living with him ... vacation time, but the dr said I need braces. Well he comes to me and makes me decide..."do you want to spoil the vacation for the whole family or get braces?"

The guy was so much of a coward he couldn't just make the decision and forces it on a kid.

The one time I called his bluff he was like "oh but I never thought you would pick that" Just a manipulator.

But if you didn't stand in his way? A charming man with lots of charisma, super intelligent and kept up on all the current events and acted all wise and philosophical. Even wrote a book on reincarnation.

I am sure he had no idea just how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up a human being he was. Most of my family does not see it either. They see the parts they saw but not the whole thing. I didn't realize how much I was messed up until I became disabled and my own success couldn't bury it anymore.

In many cases the sociopaths are us... always be on guard

I don't even talk to the new wife about this. All she has remarked on was his stubbornness when he wanted something, he made sure to get it. But I am sure he treated her well since he needed the young wife to care for him at home in the end. No need to spoil here love of him and she would probably think I am crazy for even thinking it.

Yeah thats no father, thats an animal. Just because he served in the army doesnt mean he deserves respect either. Any idiot can head into conflict if they feel its right, me included. We have to parent ourselves in situations like that.

I didn't want him dead or anything. He did a lot of good in his life as well.

But if he was buried in this country I would be tempted to defecate on his grave.

[hehexd]

Escrito originalmente por GunsForBucks:

Escrito originalmente por blahblah:

Yeah thats no father, thats an animal. Just because he served in the army doesnt mean he deserves respect either. Any idiot can head into conflict if they feel its right, me included. We have to parent ourselves in situations like that.

I didn't want him dead or anything. He did a lot of good in his life as well.

But if he was buried in this country I would be tempted to defecate on his grave.

My relative who recently molested his child also did good in his life, means nothing if theyre behaving stupidly as a grown up. I'd also do a similar defecating act on his grave lol