Unity, You Absolute Morons

Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico

OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle 13/set./2023 às 5:08

Unity, You Absolute Morons

https://www.techradar.com/gaming/unitys-plans-to-charge-per-game-install-has-developers-begging-gamers-not-to-download-their-games

Someone in the board meeting went, "Okay guys, how do we make sure that we lose as much trust and market share as possible?"

I might add that since some recent Nintendo titles have been on Unity, this has them picking a fight with a particularly tight-fisted and litigious opponent.

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Escrito originalmente por dumplingsoup:

Game-dev here, hope my response is helpful/ insightful for a lot of you.

To respond to a lot of people's comments, Unity built games makes up for like 35-40% of all games made. So there's a pretty high chance one of your top games is built with Unity, and so this game WILL effect you.

A lot of Unity's moves here will effect a lot of smaller games/ game studios (those using Unity Free and Unity Plus). So this move will greatly effect the indie market to develop their games. If they have any success with a small game they built, they'll have to start paying for installations, which when you're a small indie studio, every cent counts. This will also cost successful games more money as well.

Now a lot of you are saying "well, just use Unreal", it's not as easy to switch platforms as one might think. Almost every developer I know uses LOTS of different packages in their game to help with everything from visual assets, any game that uses networking will have some kind of package installed, there's state machines, and more. You'll likely not be able to have all of the same packages going from Unity to Unreal. Last point here is, Unreal uses C++ as their main language while Unity uses C#. It's very easy to go from Unreal/ C++ to Unity/ C#, but the reverse is MUCH harder and requires re-writing a lot of your code.

What does this mean for you gamers? You'll probably see less indie games when this change goes live. Very inexpensive games/ free games will likely start charging more.

Really disappointed with Unity on this move, it was some dumb executive who doesn't really understand the gaming eco-system and saw an easy move to make more money in the short run while hurting the company in the long run (that's a WHOLE other discussion). I hope community backlash makes them re-think this move. As for my team/ studio, we'll be looking at alternatives (like Unreal), because Unity just keeps spiraling out of control.

Last thoughts, I get that Unity needs to make money, you can't run a company without profit. Unity has tried quite a few things in the past to increase revenue but haven't had a lot of luck. There was hope Microsoft might buy them (which depending on how you look at it could've been good/bad). They went public and tried to raise money that way, but their valuation has been a rollercoaster to say the least. I know for a fact Unity has a lot of fat to trim in their organization, and they could likely cut costs by 1/3rd or more by becoming lean again, but they've gotten so big and bureaucratic with a lot of middlemen wanting to take a cut of the pie without really contributing that that'll never happen under current leadership.

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Exibindo comentários 31–45 de 197

OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle 13/set./2023 às 5:58

Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
Gamers lose their minds over the most pointless of things but this seriously takes the cake.

Do we really need a trillion threads about the monetization model between developers and the owner of an engine? This is so far beyond "announcement of a teaser for a trailer for a patch for a bugfix" that it's not even funny.

Coming from the originator of who knows how many random "be like" threads, if this counts as losing our minds then yours has already retreated to the end of the universe lol

#31

Devsman 13/set./2023 às 5:59

Escrito originalmente por GloriousZote:
Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
Gamers lose their minds over the most pointless of things but this seriously takes the cake.

Do we really need a trillion threads about the monetization model between developers and the owner of an engine? This is so far beyond "announcement of a teaser for a trailer for a patch for a bugfix" that it's not even funny.
I see one thread, and this is a serious topic.
If you don't like gamers, maybe Steam isn't the place for you.

I see two threads and a post about it in the Current Status thread. Which is basically trillions. I rounded, sue me.

#32

Out Of Bubblegum 13/set./2023 às 6:04

Might work well for them. The studios are geared up to use that engine. That is what their teams know. To switch to a different one would be very expensive. And push back development of new games a long time. Like how Bethesda keeps patching the one they know instead of switching to a better one.

#33

permanent name 13/set./2023 às 6:07

Escrito originalmente por kilésengati:
That's not true, here's Godot's licence:

...

MIT it self has licensing practices which supercede and inform those in the Godot license.

It's really quite sinister.

#34

GloriousZote 13/set./2023 às 6:09

Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
Escrito originalmente por Your_White_Knight:

Says "Gamers lose their minds over the most pointless of things" then says "trillions of threads"

:lunar2019crylaughingpig:

Now ~that's~ funny...
What can I say; I'm a gamer.

Are you, though?

#35

hypercybermegatron 13/set./2023 às 6:14

With this new system you could quite easily screw the developer by repeatedly uninstalling then reinstalling game.

The cut Unity gets is on a per install basis. Crazy!

#36

kilésengati 13/set./2023 às 6:15

Escrito originalmente por permanent name:
Escrito originalmente por kilésengati:
That's not true, here's Godot's licence:

...

MIT it self has licensing practices which supercede and inform those in the Godot license.

It's really quite sinister.

What gives. This has nothing to do with the licence itself. If you have an issue with the MIT, an alternative name for the licence in question is Expat Licence.

#37

Tonepoet 13/set./2023 às 6:24

Charging on a per install basis rather than a per-sale basis sounds like control freak behavior to me, could hypothetically lead to a developer losing money from a sale if somebody reinstalls the game enough times, plus it's likely going to necessitate that spyware be built right into the engine to tell them when Unity is installed, unless Epic, G.O.G., Origin, Steam and company are sharing their own collected metrics. Could lead to developers taking actual losses from piracy too, rather than just theoretical losses from profits.

I could imagine somebody trying to bankrupt E.A. or Ubisoft just by having computer scripts uninstall and reinstall games using an ex-crypto mining farm rig or something, or even just tricking the system into thinking the system into thinking the game is installed more times than it really is.

I imagine this situation could lead to us being nickeled and dimed for game installs.

I wonder what the legal situation is regarding old games with old licensing terms with prior versions of the engine too.

In any case, I am not a game developer or even a programmer, but I think if I were to become one I would use the Godot game engine, in part because it is F.O.S.S. software. I hear it is a good choice for indie developers and two dimensional games in particular, although it does have three dimensional rendering capabilities too.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/404790/Godot_Engine

#38

Your_White_Knight 13/set./2023 às 6:33

Escrito originalmente por kilésengati:
Escrito originalmente por Your_White_Knight:

True...

But I underestimated the scope of this... that list was only a partial list...

" ..The Gaming Report 2022 draws on fresh, original data from the 230,000 developers who make and operate over

750,000 games using the Unity Engine

and the Unity Gaming Services portfolio of products... "

Escape from Tarkov, Cult of the Lamb, Fall Guys, Wasteland 3... it's a huge list of popular games

Yes, unfortunately there a lot of games running Unity. It's the Adobe Creative Cloud of indie game development - and that's by far not a compliment.

Cities: Skylines, one of my favorite game runs on Unity and so will CSL2, despite it being terribly limited for a city-builder of such scope.............

Well that's pretty much it...

This is just "We decided we need a bigger piece of the pie... everyone give one slice" because everything was fine when it was smaller game companies using their Engine for small games... but now that bigger game Developers and just bigger games ( look how Escape from Tarkov, Cult of the Lamb, Fall Guys, Cup Head took off ) and they realized that they were getting the same amount of money for making more for the Developers...

It's basically just greed...

Escrito originalmente por Out Of Bubblegum:
Might work well for them. The studios are geared up to use that engine. That is what their teams know. To switch to a different one would be very expensive. And push back development of new games a long time. Like how Bethesda keeps patching the one they know instead of switching to a better one.

Might backfire big time too...

Unity isn't the only Engine out there... there's plenty of them, some even freeware and some even more easy and stable to use... get too greedy and there's plenty of other options for new games Developers to go to...

They might have a captive corner on some big games now... but it might bite them in the long run.

Time will tell...

Última edição por Your_White_Knight; 13/set./2023 às 6:38

#39

Your_White_Knight 13/set./2023 às 6:37

Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
Escrito originalmente por Your_White_Knight:

Says "Gamers lose their minds over the most pointless of things" then says "trillions of threads"

Now ~that's~ funny...
What can I say; I'm a gamer.

Riiiiiiight:

Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
I see two threads and a post about it in the Current Status thread. Which is basically trillions. I rounded, sue me.

Talk about "is so far beyond"...

#40

permanent name 13/set./2023 às 6:38

Escrito originalmente por kilésengati:
Escrito originalmente por permanent name:

MIT it self has licensing practices which supercede and inform those in the Godot license.

It's really quite sinister.

What gives. This has nothing to do with the licence itself. If you have an issue with the MIT, an alternative name for the licence in question is Expat Licence.

Right, so, historically, the goal behind the expat license is to lure people into granting their contributions to unrelated entitites. For their own personal profit.

For reference i developed the theoretical and mathematical basis for minimum space in 1964, only to have my work attributed to a couple of willing stooges and released in 1994. I received USD $1M for my work, which has essentially formed the basis of Moore's Law as well as the mass-market applications of Elitzur–Vaidman's bomb tester, which is used to calculate how much you want pants you don't have.

These licenses are complete and utter ♥♥♥♥ designed to con you into granting the rights to your ideas to unrelated entitites. It's literally why they exist, historically and in actual modern fact.

#41

Just Simple 13/set./2023 às 6:38

As a person who has been learning how to use unity, I might end up using a different game engine like... idk, probably Godot or something, but I'm not sure as of right now (but I'm NOT gonna choose unreal because 1. I don't like Epic Games and 2. I don't think my pc can handle unreal engine, especially the more recent version of it), I honestly hope they realize how stupid charging developers fees for simply having people installed the developers game is, but that'll probably take them a really, REALLY long time
also wtf even nintendo is using unity now? Didn't know about that until I found this thread

Última edição por Just Simple; 13/set./2023 às 6:40

#42

Devsman 13/set./2023 às 6:40

Escrito originalmente por GloriousZote:
Escrito originalmente por Devsman:
What can I say; I'm a gamer.
Are you, though?

Are any of us? What is a gamer? How do you define gamer? Is there an ideal gamer, in the realm of ideal forms, that we are all imperfect projections of? Is this realm a real place, or only theoretical? How much can a gamer deviate from the ideal gamer and still qualify? What is the minimum body fat percentage to qualify as a gamer? Idea Cheeto to Dorito ratio? Minimum markup on chairs and accessories? Does my keyboard have to glow in the dark?

Perhaps the essence of the gamer is not about the physical but about the realm of complaints. Perhaps I don't complain enough to be a gamer. And that sucks.

#43

hypercybermegatron 13/set./2023 às 6:43

Escrito originalmente por Tonepoet:
Charging on a per install basis rather than a per-sale basis sounds like control freak behavior to me, could hypothetically lead to a developer losing money from a sale if somebody reinstalls the game enough times, plus it's likely going to necessitate that spyware be built right into the engine to tell them when Unity is installed, unless Epic, G.O.G., Origin, Steam and company are sharing their own collected metrics. Could lead to developers taking actual losses from piracy too, rather than just theoretical losses from profits.

I could imagine somebody trying to bankrupt E.A. or Ubisoft just by having computer scripts uninstall and reinstall games using an ex-crypto mining farm rig or something, or even just tricking the system into thinking the system into thinking the game is installed more times than it really is.

I imagine this situation could lead to us being nickeled and dimed for game installs.

I wonder what the legal situation is regarding old games with old licensing terms with prior versions of the engine too.

In any case, I am not a game developer or even a programmer, but I think if I were to become one I would use the Godot game engine, in part because it is F.O.S.S. software. I hear it is a good choice for indie developers and two dimensional games in particular, although it does have three dimensional rendering capabilities too.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/404790/Godot_Engine

Well Unity CEO John Riccitiello was previously resident ghoul at EA using the same tactics.

#44

Tonepoet 13/set./2023 às 6:43

Escrito originalmente por permanent name:
Escrito originalmente por kilésengati:
That's not true, here's Godot's licence:

...

MIT it self has licensing practices which supercede and inform those in the Godot license.

It's really quite sinister.

M.I.T. has various different licenses, but the license commonly referred to as the M.I.T. license is really rather old, and is not considered a copyleft license like the G.P.L., so in theory you should be able to make derivatives and redistribute those under a more proprietary license.

#45

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