Triple G 2023 年 6 月 2 日 上午 7:23
2
Let´s talk about the Western Left...
I just watched a video in in the "last thing You have watched on Youtube" thread and thought it´s a good opportunity to open a thread myself for a change. (Will probably remain the only one, so no worries)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozS6qFfcHM0

Answering, or commenting it there seemed a bit off, so here we go. I´m interested in Your take on it, what You think about it, what could be done, what they do wrong - things like that. If possible without too many insults, or derailing into some trans or religious topic...

My initial take, which made me decide to do it here, was:

"That is actually a good on point video. The problem is, when others don´t play fair to get more followers for their ideas - which means You would also need to play unfair, to raise Your numbers. Which defeats the point in being left. A dilemma. That´s why a stronger right is a better indicator that something is wrong within a society - as both, left and right, try to tackle the same problem. If You´ve got a center that is, as the majority would default to the center."

But that doesn´t give an answer - so i´m a bit clueless.

Anyway:
Have a good time. ;o)
引用自 Ganger:
These left winger wants a soviet style system with a few at the top holding all the power, wealth on privilege while the rest of us suffer in silence.
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Yew Nough 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:22 
People have learned to enjoy the next level of stereotyping instead of finding the time to understand the people in front of them.

There is far more to everyone outside of politics and 'what you like to do with your private parts', but somehow its become popular to believe these things take priority in the measure of a person.

It's lazy thinking. An inability to navigate an actual dialectical conversation. Social devolution.


As for initiating a fix: Worry about your community, not the entire world.
It is impossible to have legitimate empathy for and affect on the entire world vs the former.
最後修改者:Yew Nough; 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 6:41
kilésengati 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:25 
I don't know man, that five minute video felt like going through an entire 1½ lecture, and a boring one at that.

The video claims only the revolutionary left is the real left… mkay, let's roll with that I guess?

The problem of revolutionary/extremist movements is that most people simply want certainty in their lives. Revolution is a big unknown with great risk and uncertainty for them and their loved ones.
People get killed in revolutions, that's the nature of them. And no sane person wants that unless their and their loved ones' lives are immediately threatened or they are out for revenge or (unfortunately) guaranteed profits.

Honestly, that the world isn't full of revolutionaries and ideologues, but most folks still see individual people when they walk about town, even when they disagree, is a good thing.
Though I can see how such mindset and naïvity can unfortunately lead to corruption and be abused by power-hungry loonies, which end up creating life-threatening situations either wilfully or through incompetence. But we are not there yet, and hopefully not soon.
Triple G 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:43 
引用自 kilésengati
The problem of revolutionary/extremist movements is that most people simply want certainty in their lives. Revolution is a big unknown with great risk and uncertainty for them and their loved ones.
I see. Nonetheless the whole traditions we have, and the systems we live in, and democracy, or freedom we may or may not have - is there thanks to revolutionary extremists of their time. But it´s not the end of the line - and on top it leads nowhere. As i said earlier You can´t have eternal growth when You have limited resources. There needs to be a complete change in the direction sooner or later anyway. Why wait till there´s no other way around it? It would be smarter to do it in a controlled way, no? To prevent revolutionary extremists to do it.

引用自 kilésengati
The video claims only the revolutionary left is the real left… mkay, let's roll with that I guess?
If it´s about opposing capitalism as it is. I asked earlier here, if there´s another approach, but i haven´t got an answer. If You have one - i´m all ears, or eyes in that case...
最後修改者:Triple G; 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:43
Saarath 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:50 
Do not let those Marxists divide you.

As an individualist I recommend, that you should only focus on your own self-interest and perhaps family and friends, but only if you choose to deem them worthy.

Be a free-thinker.
最後修改者:Saarath; 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:51
ZZZZZ 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 4:57 
theres no left government on earth so they indeed dont exist
Triple G 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 5:05 
引用自 K3-27
As an individualist I recommend, that you should only focus on your own self-interest and perhaps family and friends, but only if you choose to deem them worthy.

Be a free-thinker.
The free thinker in me says this means survival of the fittest. I guess there´s a fine line between being an individualist or an egoist.
最後修改者:Triple G; 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 5:06
EASY PETE 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 5:14 
Im forward wing
Saarath 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 5:22 
引用自 Triple G
引用自 K3-27
As an individualist I recommend, that you should only focus on your own self-interest and perhaps family and friends, but only if you choose to deem them worthy.

Be a free-thinker.
The free thinker in me says this means survival of the fittest. I guess there´s a fine line between being an individualist or an egoist.

I can not see it.
Triple G 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 5:55 
引用自 K3-27
I can not see it.
The line? As an individualist You can also care about the other individuals, so they have an easier time being themselves - which enables everyone to be an individualist if they want to be one, within certain limits. Ideally with equal rights.

As an egoist You don´t need to care. Which means survival of the fittest. And to be successful You need to do it like the other successful people do it - or You´re exceptionally lucky or talented. Which harms individualism, as it´s more like how the people picture those left ideas, with the difference that it´s on a voluntary basis, because You always have the choice to be unsuccessful or poor. While ignoring that some people will be left behind no matter what, as they can´t keep up with the rest, even if they give everything they have.
Jackie Daytona 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 6:14 
引用自 Triple G
I just watched a video in in the "last thing You have watched on Youtube" thread and thought it´s a good opportunity to open a thread myself for a change. (Will probably remain the only one, so no worries)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozS6qFfcHM0
The person that made that video is insane. He doesn't understand politics at all. He speaks complete nonsense.

He seems to think that leftism is the one and only thing anyone should believe in. That's not how the world works. You cannot be in constant revolution against everything at all times.

You have to be a reasonable human being. Which means accepting that there are people unlike you. With opinions you don't agree with.

The only real solution is to have everyone come to the center. Find common ground. Things we can all agree on. Leave the extremist views to the side.

Modern day politicians don't see it that way. It's extremism or nothing. Which is destroying society. Rapidly.
Triple G 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 6:48 
引用自 Jackie Daytona
The person that made that video is insane. He doesn't understand politics at all. He speaks complete nonsense.
...
The only real solution is to have everyone come to the center. Find common ground. Things we can all agree on. Leave the extremist views to the side.
I don´t know that person - and it doesn´t matter much to me what else he does. The video was short. And the main question is why not more people are into the left and what is there to improve our systems we live in - because when i compare it to the situation here, usually those people who would benefit from it, prefer to choose the right-wing. Against EU. Against immigration. Deny climate changes. You name it. Some figures which are fascist. 18% here on a national level according to actual surveys the time i started the topic. That seems more insane to me.

And "find common ground" doesn´t really work, when arguments and facts can easily be ignored - and You can´t really talk to the people, and questions You ask remain unanswered, and every petition is rejected with ridiculous arguments. That´s not how a democracy should work - but that´s how it works. And the thing the center does is either to say: "Oh no - these are Nazis, we can´t work with them." in best hopes the problems solves itself - or even worse, they try to adapt the same ideas, in the hopes to get these voters. That seems also insane to me.
Jackie Daytona 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 8:26 
引用自 Triple G
引用自 Jackie Daytona
The person that made that video is insane. He doesn't understand politics at all. He speaks complete nonsense.
...
The only real solution is to have everyone come to the center. Find common ground. Things we can all agree on. Leave the extremist views to the side.
引用自 Triple G
I don´t know that person - and it doesn´t matter much to me what else he does.
And yet? You link to him and use as a source for your argument.
引用自 Triple G
And the main question is why not more people are into the left and what is there to improve our systems we live in -
False. He was talking about leftists talking to other leftists.
引用自 Triple G
because when i compare it to the situation here, usually those people who would benefit from it, prefer to choose the right-wing. Against EU.
Not everyone here is EU. Some of us are U.S. or Australia.
引用自 Triple G
Against immigration.
Yes. Look at Japan. A tiny nation. They reject most immigration. Why? Because they already have an overpopulation problem. As does England and the U.S. This needs to STOP.

These people need to solve their own problems rather than bringing them to other countries to fix.
引用自 Triple G
Deny climate changes.
Significant evidence shows that climate change models are inaccurate. In the 1990's, people believed that NYC and LA would be underwater in 10 years due to global warming. They lied. These people have no idea what they are talking about.
引用自 Triple G
Some figures which are fascist. 18% here on a national level according to actual surveys the time i started the topic. That seems more insane to me.
The only thing insane is the denial that these sorts of people exist.
引用自 Triple G
And "find common ground" doesn´t really work, when arguments and facts can easily be ignored - and You can´t really talk to the people, and questions You ask remain unanswered, and every petition is rejected with ridiculous arguments. That´s not how a democracy should work - but that´s how it works. And the thing the center does is either to say: "Oh no - these are Nazis, we can´t work with them." in best hopes the problems solves itself - or even worse, they try to adapt the same ideas, in the hopes to get these voters. That seems also insane to me.
Most people are motivated by what is best for all. Some are motivated by what is best for themselves.

Regardless of ideology, you have to have the conversation. Otherwise? Authoritarians and fascists rein supreme. And nobody wants that.
最後修改者:Jackie Daytona; 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 8:26
Masque 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 8:29 
REJECT DIVISION TACTICS. THERE IS NO RIGHT AND LEFT. ONLY US. WE NEED TO WAKE UP TO THE REALITY. THE World economic forum and global elites are against us and using the right and left to divide us. We are one people. we must unite
Awarded and agreed. :dscheer:
Ulfrinn 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 8:55 
引用自 Jackie Daytona
引用自 Triple G
I just watched a video in in the "last thing You have watched on Youtube" thread and thought it´s a good opportunity to open a thread myself for a change. (Will probably remain the only one, so no worries)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozS6qFfcHM0
The person that made that video is insane. He doesn't understand politics at all. He speaks complete nonsense.

He seems to think that leftism is the one and only thing anyone should believe in. That's not how the world works. You cannot be in constant revolution against everything at all times.

You have to be a reasonable human being. Which means accepting that there are people unlike you. With opinions you don't agree with.

The only real solution is to have everyone come to the center. Find common ground. Things we can all agree on. Leave the extremist views to the side.

Modern day politicians don't see it that way. It's extremism or nothing. Which is destroying society. Rapidly.

What is "center" is a constantly shifting goal post for many... Once you arrive at what is determined to be a center, extremism returns, and the center is now somewhere between that point, and the new position by the extremists. You only have to look back over the past 20-30 years to see that clear shift. For example, at one point, even democrats in the US supported secure borders. Now they call anyone who supports that idea a racist.
Uncle Sam 2023 年 6 月 2 日 下午 10:46 
Well it's most likely due lack of involvement in local politics on a neighborhood / city level. For some reason people tend to hyper-focus only on national level issues,

That alongside the political parties with most resources / "contacts" with standard corporations or corporate media** or other "special interest groups" that don't promote the candidate that actually gives a damn about what affects the common citizen across the many cities on a country. Thus "promoting" the candidates that will return the "favor" after they get into office to keep the cycle going.

In short the new left needs to start a genuine grassroot movement on a local level and grow from there (of course making alliances with other local political parties that share common ground be it for the short/medium/long term ideas regarding how to improve the workers class living standards while keeping a balance with climate change).

Also get into the media game kinda like how Jacobin does but in a per city / state basis, and once the movement has gained enough momentum on a per country basis.

In the meanwhile the current situation might end up being even more pro-Corporations and even more pro-Bourgeoisie aka the so self-called "elites" will get even more benefits than they got at the moment.

With that being said, I really like the idea of direct democracy if well implemented it can significally speed up the outdated bureocracy some govts have, regarding the average citizen concerns might be (i.e. Universal Health Care, Housing, Minimal Wage, Inflation, Civil Rights, etc)

Here two videos with English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vVEbCquMw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoP_mSIHqTY

** A post-data video about Corporate media:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34LGPIXvU5M

Bonus videos about what double-speak is (one of the many tools Corporations, politicans, uber-rich folks, etc use), 1st video a short summary of 8:40 min; the second video is a 1989 C-SPAN Interview with William Lutz about doublespeak it's a 59:16 min video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pk6Xb_BWew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ka2s9Ubs0

Also this "The New Left rightly struggled against bureaucracy and conservatism, but it failed to organize popular dissent into a new democratic mass party. That remains the key challenge for the Left. " from this article:

https://catalyst-journal.com/2023/03/the-left-needs-organizational-democracy

It's going to be an uphill battle of course given the current Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone" situation, but I say there's hope.
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張貼日期: 2023 年 6 月 2 日 上午 7:23
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