Opinions on the 'dont say gay' law in florida

[fender jag]

This is going to get controversial and ill prolly get banned but screw it. they suck at baseball and lsu is arguably better

[RRW359]

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

Escrito originalmente por RRW359:

Saying people like eachother romantically isn't something that has to be sexual and pretty much all media meant for grade schoolers mentions or is sometimes reliant on the fact that people can be BF/GF.

I get that saying who you like may not be sexual, but why does anyone feel the need to talk to a kid about who they choose to like? I don't see how that isn't odd behavior. Straight, bi, lesbian, gay, or whatever—none of that stuff needs to even be brought up to little kids. I mean, I remember having one of the best teachers in grade school. You could tell that she was a butch lesbian by how she dressed and so on, but never once did she feel the need to talk to us about that.

Kids will talk to eachother about relationships and teachers will want to reference media they knew the kids have seen in order to better convey lessons. Imagine if a bio teacher couldn't reference lion king or bugs life because it showed people in some kind of intimate relationship.

[xAlphaStarOmegax]

Escrito originalmente por RRW359:

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

I get that saying who you like may not be sexual, but why does anyone feel the need to talk to a kid about who they choose to like? I don't see how that isn't odd behavior. Straight, bi, lesbian, gay, or whatever—none of that stuff needs to even be brought up to little kids. I mean, I remember having one of the best teachers in grade school. You could tell that she was a butch lesbian by how she dressed and so on, but never once did she feel the need to talk to us about that.

Kids will talk to eachother about relationships and teachers will want to reference media they knew the kids have seen in order to better convey lessons. Imagine if a bio teacher couldn't reference lion king or bugs life because it showed people in some kind of intimate relationship.

I think you know exactly what I mean. It's not about bringing up cartoons; it's about discussing sex, sexuality, and the like with little kids.

[Balsover]

Escrito originalmente por Kobs:

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

It's not a law against saying that word; that's just what the opponents of the law are calling it for some odd reason. It's just a law saying that teachers are not allowed to teach kids about sex, sexuality, and gender ideologies in general.

Here.... for an idea of what it is
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/florida-don-t-say-gay-bill-desantis-1.6400087

The CBC? Its state run propaganda. Its as trashy as CNN, or MSNBC.

[Not Big Surprise]

Escrito originalmente por =(^ ^)=:

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

"don't say gay" refers to a bill that bars "discussions about gender or sexuality" in schools

which at first glance sounds fine
but then you remember that, people are constantly being gender in a multitude of scenarios, including kids, and that kids see straight couples all the time, all over the place
that kids are shown this as the norm
and that causes issues when any kind of exception comes

a girl who likes girls, a boy who would like to wear dresses, a kid with two fathers, those things happen more often than the word "exception" would have you believe, and with this law in effect these things can't be talked about
of course, none of this would cause any confusion if this wasn't a strictly cisheteronormative society, if this wasn't a society that simply assumed everyone is cis and straight and that there's no need to consider any other scenario
but alas, this is where we are, these things end up needing to be explained sooner or later, and this law makes it so it can only be talked about later, leaving queer kids to figure themselves out through other means, assuming they realize they are queer and don't end up repressing any idea of it to be "healthy" or "normal"

Well, in this case we are talking about sexuality, and I don't think etero/homosexuality, whatever, should be discussed before you enter the puberty in the middle school.

what's so bad about kids learning that you can like more than just the opposite gender, or just not feel romance at all?

Escrito originalmente por SlowMango:

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

"don't say gay" refers to a bill that bars "discussions about gender or sexuality" in schools

which at first glance sounds fine
but then you remember that, people are constantly being gender in a multitude of scenarios, including kids, and that kids see straight couples all the time, all over the place
that kids are shown this as the norm
and that causes issues when any kind of exception comes

a girl who likes girls, a boy who would like to wear dresses, a kid with two fathers, those things happen more often than the word "exception" would have you believe, and with this law in effect these things can't be talked about
of course, none of this would cause any confusion if this wasn't a strictly cisheteronormative society, if this wasn't a society that simply assumed everyone is cis and straight and that there's no need to consider any other scenario
but alas, this is where we are, these things end up needing to be explained sooner or later, and this law makes it so it can only be talked about later, leaving queer kids to figure themselves out through other means, assuming they realize they are queer and don't end up repressing any idea of it to be "healthy" or "normal"

It doesn't prevent talking about it. It prevents having lessons on any sexuality below a certain age.

and yet heterosexuality is still very much presented to kids that age, implicitly or sometimes implicitly as how things "should" be

[TruebornJester]

Escrito originalmente por Sir Dookface McFerretballs:

It is really interesting when you actually read the law.

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

It basically says not to teach overly young children up to "3rd grade" about sexual relationships.

After that, there is no restriction.

I actually agree with this as a gay person.

You should NOT be teaching kids ANYTHING about sexuality until they are old enough to understand/beyond puberty.

So people freaking out over it think we should be teaching kids under 8 years old about sex. :SafeForWork:

Problem is most democrats/leftists don't read beyond the headline. They actually think the law prevents them from saying the word gay

[Not Big Surprise]

Escrito originalmente por TruebornJester:

Escrito originalmente por Sir Dookface McFerretballs:

It is really interesting when you actually read the law.

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

It basically says not to teach overly young children up to "3rd grade" about sexual relationships.

After that, there is no restriction.

I actually agree with this as a gay person.

You should NOT be teaching kids ANYTHING about sexuality until they are old enough to understand/beyond puberty.

So people freaking out over it think we should be teaching kids under 8 years old about sex. :SafeForWork:

Problem is most democrats/leftists don't read beyond the headline. They actually think the law prevents them from saying the word gay

literally the only people i've ever seen thinking that are a few people who came to this thread with zero prior knowledge on the subject

[Ulfrinn]

Escrito originalmente por RRW359:

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

It's not a law against saying that word; that's just what the opponents of the law are calling it for some odd reason. It's just a law saying that teachers are not allowed to teach kids about sex, sexuality, and gender ideologies in general.

And if they do? If the government mandates that the school do something in responce to something a teacher said that sounds a lot like the government trying to control what you are allowed to say. We have an ammendment that says wheather the government is allowed to do that.

Teachers are government employees. They're not random people speaking an opinion in private or public. They are people hired to perform a job and rules have always existed as to what they are and aren't allowed to teach. So yeah, if a teacher attempts to do something against the law, they're going to lose that job, if not face legal penalties as well.

[Volfogg]

I thought people are normally getting used to whatever happens in Florida? And since lots of odd things happen there... well... wait... Florida has a baseball team?

[xAlphaStarOmegax]

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

what's so bad about kids learning that you can like more than just the opposite gender, or just not feel romance at all?

If I may? In my view, there's nothing wrong with it, but that should be taught at home, not in public schools. It's like, even with politics, I didn't go to school for any of that. And no, I'm not bigoted at all; my answer has nothing to do with anyone's sexual preference whatsoever. I mean, my goodness, I'm bi, and one of my favorite teachers was a butch lesbian. But she never once tried to discuss her sexual preference or private love life with us grade schoolers; she just did her job and taught us history and stuff.

[Ulfrinn]

Escrito originalmente por Dom:

Escrito originalmente por Ulfrinn:

I hate to break it to you, but "gender minority" is not a phrase that ever actually comes up in the bill. You lied. You made yet another bad faith argument. So yes, it is quite literally the side you are making excuses for who can't leave kids alone to the point you have to lie about the content of a bill to try to gain more unfettered access to them. You are spreading disinformation.

For everyone else, the full text of the bill is here.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF

You know exactly what I'm talking about. You just like to deflect.

I know you intentionally lied, and that's not a deflection. It shows the only arguments against the bill so far had been nothing but bad-faith arguments and disinformation.

[talemore]

yes

[Dom]

Escrito originalmente por Ulfrinn:

Escrito originalmente por Dom:

You know exactly what I'm talking about. You just like to deflect.

I know you intentionally lied, and that's not a deflection. It shows the only arguments against the bill so far had been nothing but bad-faith arguments and disinformation.

It mentions gender identity which disproportionately affects gender minorities. You know that. You just pretend that you don't, because you like to deflect and derail. There is zero disinformation in that, only your desperate attempts to invalidate what others say with personal attacks; claiming that they are "acting in bad faith" or "spreading disinformation". When you are completely aware of what they mean.

[Not Big Surprise]

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

what's so bad about kids learning that you can like more than just the opposite gender, or just not feel romance at all?

If I may? In my view, there's nothing wrong with it, but that should be taught at home, not in public schools. It's like, even with politics, I didn't go to school for any of that. And no, I'm not bigoted at all; my answer has nothing to do with anyone's sexual preference whatsoever. I mean, my goodness, I'm bi, and one of my favorite teachers was a butch lesbian. But she never once tried to discuss her sexual preference or private love life with us grade schoolers; she just did her job and taught us history and stuff.

but why? why can't the subject be talked about at school just like any other subject could?

arguably it would be better to talk about it imo, for reasons i already brought up

[Sarge the Erdrick dog dawg]

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

arguably it would be better to talk about it imo, for reasons i already brought up

They taught us Sex Ed in high school, why do we need more than that?

[xAlphaStarOmegax]

Escrito originalmente por Not Big Surprise:

Escrito originalmente por xAlphaStarOmegax:

If I may? In my view, there's nothing wrong with it, but that should be taught at home, not in public schools. It's like, even with politics, I didn't go to school for any of that. And no, I'm not bigoted at all; my answer has nothing to do with anyone's sexual preference whatsoever. I mean, my goodness, I'm bi, and one of my favorite teachers was a butch lesbian. But she never once tried to discuss her sexual preference or private love life with us grade schoolers; she just did her job and taught us history and stuff.

but why? why can't the subject be talked about at school just like any other subject could?

arguably it would be better to talk about it imo, for reasons i already brought up

I really think it should be up to the parents. Having teachers talk about that stuff with their young students can lead to grooming-type behavior. A lot of grade school kids don't like hearing that stuff. I know because I was once a grade schooler. I remember being in middle school and hoping and praying that I wouldn't have to see any sex-ed classes; thankfully, I didn't since I never even entered high school. I actually recently saw a cellphone video of students who were recording their teacher trying to show them a video and have discussions about sex and sexuality, and the students were booing them and asking the teacher why they were even trying to talk about that stuff with them. So, there are many people—actual students (not just parents)—out there who think this is inappropriate.

Edit: The students who were booing the teacher and extremely grossed out about it were high school students; even they thought it was inappropriate. You could hear in the video that a student asked the teacher why she was showing this to kids, and the teacher threatened them that if they were going to be inappropriate about it, she would make them all spend every Saturday in school for like a year. The truth is, she was the one being inappropriate; the students were only voicing how they felt uncomfortable, yet she forced them to continue watching that video. So, I am glad that states are starting to bring this law about, where if a teacher tries to have these discussions with their students, they or the school can be sued.