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Samurai vs Knight
If a Samurai and a Knight fought each other, who would win? Both have time to prepare and both have all the conventional equipment they had during their respective heydays. Also, neither are on horseback.
Автор сообщения: Hammer Of Evil:
Автор сообщения: Scurrybt
If a Samurai and a Knight fought each other, who would win? Both have time to prepare and both have all the conventional equipment they had during their respective heydays. Also, neither are on horseback.

hi scurry

> am a subject matter expert in metallurgy, among two other fields.

the reason so much work has to be put into japanese katana is because japan is a volcanic geostrata. meaning that the iron ore you mine there is very low purity.

what does purity really mean in the world of metallurgy? well without giving you a 8 hour lecture on deleterious inclusions in a given metallurgical microstructure, volcanic geostrata contains lots of PHOSPHOROUS and SULPHUR - both of these are VERY, VERY bad if they are inside of your iron or steel.

japanese folks found out you had to fold the steel to literally beat the daylights out of the metal enough to form a proper edge that wouldn't snap like a twig (which is what P and S do to your metal, make it super brittle.)

while the process may be honorable, the number of actual swords you can make per hour goes down to like zero. it took them days, weeks, to pound steel to the point where all the sulphur and phosphorous was out of the core.

so, other nations that had access to higher purity iron ore naturally (which is like everywhere else in the world, japan's is unfortunately some of the worst ore you can get) didn't have to put a quarter as much work into their iron to decarbeurize it (remove carbon, which is what makes steel.) enough to make it strong and tough to withstand blows.

unfortunately if you take warriors from both timeperiods and pit them against eachother, the japanese sword would probably not break the knight's armor, and the knights standard longsword would likely fold the katana in half, with the first blow struck.

its just, unfortunately, a product of nature in this regard.
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Автор сообщения: Stakanov
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Generally speaking the double edged cruciform longsword is much more fragile than the single edged curved blade.

It depends on the forging technique, and in medieval times, knights' swords were known to be heavy and wide, because there were fights between knights.

The Japanese had light clothes and forged very thin blades, focusing on speed and sharpness.

The only advantage of samurai is dexterity, but in the end the advantages of knights are too important with strength, professionalism, competence,...
In my eyes knight against samurai it will end like this:
https://youtu.be/WRYM6B7CTs8?t=43

I precise that I study the medieval times and the weapons that they used

For the most part the average knight vs knight fight ends with them falling on eachother and crushing eachother with the weight of their armor. There were also at best 10 heavy knights for every several hundred lighter equipped soldiers, predominantly wearing leather armor and a helmet.

When Japan did engage in conscription practices every single peasant conscript had lamellar scale armor.

Furthermore, europeans tended to target and destroy smiths as strategic resources. So the average sword was unnecessarily broad and wide due to the unskilled smiths producing them, who often did little more than pour steel into a mold. If they were especially talented or knowledgeable they might heat temper the blade, but more often they weren’t and any form of quenching would shatter the blade.
Отредактировано permanent name; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 3:14
Автор сообщения: Ulfrinn
Автор сообщения: Good Night Owl
Everyone is making the "equipment" argument, when the samurai themselves would have been better trained based in their culture. If a Samurai couldn't win in gear, they would go martial arts, and win on that front.

It's the warrior that counts, not the weapons and armors.... Unless it's guns, OK? I think it's the warrior that counts unless the other guy has a gun.

Yeah, sure, because fighters in Europe didn't learn martial arts, or hand to hand combat, they couldn't throw out hadoukens or kamehamehas either. If you find my sarcasm offensive, it should make you feel better that I made my eyes hurt a little with as hard as I rolled them.

I don't care about your dismissive emotional disposition. Roll away.

I actually expect it, because you spend 99% of your time on this forum arguing with someone.
Отредактировано Good Night Owl; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 3:20
I think that even a Norman Knight from 1066 would give a samurai a run for his money, let alone one with full plate armor. At least a bow would be effective against the armor of that time period, but I don't see a real advantage in hand to hand, since chain mail was very resistant to slashing attacks from a sword.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJAsVZGDS0

Sabre, longsword and rapier against katana, two rounds each. 6-0 to Europe.
Автор сообщения: steven1mac
I think that even a Norman Knight from 1066 would give a samurai a run for his money, let alone one with full plate armor. At least a bow would be effective against the armor of that time period, but I don't see a real advantage in hand to hand, since chain mail was very resistant to slashing attacks from a sword.

Chain mail is basically terrible and doesn’t provide protection from swords. Just cutting edges and knives. It did okay on Assyrian cataphracts, but they were wearing like four or five layers of the stuff and couldn’t actually move without their horse.

Even then it wasn’t that effective against spears or even just clubs.

Normans could give most people a run for their money, and did. Often people with superior equipment and numbers, as they focused primarily on the reliability of their standardized equipment over the kinds of cost matching practices which led to leather men at arms with maces and shields fighting armored knights too financially valuable to actually kill.

Also since spearmen tend to be the be all end all of conflicts samurai’s superior spear design would likely provide an edge, as the yari often had lengths which rivaled pikes but were light and versatile enough to be used in melee.
Отредактировано permanent name; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 4:23
Автор сообщения: permanent name
Автор сообщения: steven1mac
I think that even a Norman Knight from 1066 would give a samurai a run for his money, let alone one with full plate armor. At least a bow would be effective against the armor of that time period, but I don't see a real advantage in hand to hand, since chain mail was very resistant to slashing attacks from a sword.

Chain mail is basically terrible and doesn’t provide protection from swords. Just cutting edges and knives. It did okay on Assyrian cataphracts, but they were wearing like four or five layers of the stuff and couldn’t actually move without their horse.

Normans could give most people a run for their money, and did. Often people with superior equipment and numbers, as they focused primarily on the reliability of their standardized equipment over the kinda of cost matching practices which led to leather men at arms with maces and shields fighting armored knights too financially valuable to actually kill.

Chain was effective against swords, it wasn't good against crushing or piercing, but used additional materiel like a padded gambeson when wearing the mail. Could you thrust a sword through the mail, yes, although swords used by the Japaneses were not the most efficient design for it. Bodkin arrow were specifically designed to penetrate chain, if you look at the arrow you will see it is long an narrow, to penetrate the links in the mail.

I hate this example, but it does get the point across. The reality is the sword should be slightly more effective if hit had a body underneath to increase the impact, and a few rinds would be damaged by being hit.
https://youtu.be/RFu11mSutd0
Отредактировано steven1mac; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 4:33
Simply smacking someone in the shoulder with a longsword is probably enough to cause a sprain, dislocation, or break through chain and gambeson.

Without something to spread and homogenize the force, like a cuirass, the edge of the sword impacting the armor would act as a wedge to direct force down and into the body.

Also most samurai armor was built around a plate cuirass, particularly for lords and heavy shock troops. The swords were able to stand up to repeated impacts on such surfaces, although the articulated joints of the early renaissance never became particularly common due to iron scarcity and a focus on mounted combat. Which articulated plate still couldn’t defend against. So targeting joints in the armor was just as common as during the hundreds of years of history where full back and front protection didn’t exist. As compared to the little one to two hundred year pocket where it did during the late gothic era.

Again, a thin sturdy sword provides a viable blunt edge against armor for all the same reasons a flanged mace or a pick did.
Отредактировано permanent name; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 4:38
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Автор сообщения: Stakanov
A samurai has no chance against a knight in armor.
The samurai's sword is certainly sharp but fragile and light, against a knight's armor it can do nothing.
The knights also undergo extreme training and handle their weapon with perfection where anyone can claim to be a samurai.

Generally speaking the double edged cruciform longsword is much more fragile than the single edged curved blade.

No it wasn't. Japanese metal was trash. They were built thick to resist bending when impacted. This is also why a 28" blade is as heavy as a European longsword with a 40" blade, while being less likely to be usable after hitting it against something. You sure as heck won't be "cleaving helmets" with it either.
Отредактировано Ulfrinn; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 4:37
Автор сообщения: Ulfrinn
Автор сообщения: permanent name

Generally speaking the double edged cruciform longsword is much more fragile than the single edged curved blade.

No it wasn't. Japanese metal was trash. They were built thick to resist bending when impacted. This is also why a 28" blade is as heavy as a European longsword with a 40" blade, while being less likely to be usable after hitting it against something. You sure as heck won't be "cleaving helmets" with it either.

The extra length of european blades meant that less than half of the edge was usable for cutting, known as the forte.

The extra length was only really useful for poking at lightly armored targets over the shoulders of shieldmen, as any impact or contact with another blade past the forte was guaranteed to snap or bend the entire blade.

Helmet cutting is a time honored practice, and a demonstration of skill. Not everyone could do it, but it was common enough and there are many historical accounts of it occurring on the battlefield. It requires a 45 degree angle of contact, and essentially isn’t possible with a straight blade due to its more fragile construction. Although there are some (dubious) accounts of famous knights with wootz steel swords accomplishing it. Most of which were curved.
Отредактировано permanent name; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 4:44
Автор сообщения: Munithe EXT
Автор сообщения: permanent name

For the most part the average knight vs knight fight ends with them falling on eachother and crushing eachother with the weight of their armor. There were also at best 10 heavy knights for every several hundred lighter equipped soldiers, predominantly wearing leather armor and a helmet.

When Japan did engage in conscription practices every single peasant conscript had lamellar scale armor.

Furthermore, europeans tended to target and destroy smiths as strategic resources. So the average sword was unnecessarily broad and wide due to the unskilled smiths producing them, who often did little more than pour steel into a mold. If they were especially talented or knowledgeable they might heat temper the blade, but more often they weren’t and any form of quenching would shatter the blade.
Why would you need to be talented to temper a blade? It's one of the easiest parts of smithing.

It’s the hardest if you don’t know how steel works, didn’t bloom your own, and probably didn’t have properly made steel. There were several times that influential warlords decided that destroying the steel industry to gain dominance was worth the cost, so simple things like understanding steel temperatures was beyond the average smith.

Автор сообщения: Munithe EXT
Samurai wouldn't usually use their swords anyway, they were mostly a back up weapon. Last resort before death.

The same is fundamentally true of europeans as well, and as such the arming sword was almost twenty times as common as the longsword.

The short length helped make up for their awful steel industry.
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Автор сообщения: Ulfrinn

No it wasn't. Japanese metal was trash. They were built thick to resist bending when impacted. This is also why a 28" blade is as heavy as a European longsword with a 40" blade, while being less likely to be usable after hitting it against something. You sure as heck won't be "cleaving helmets" with it either.

The extra length of european blades meant that less than half of the edge was usable for cutting, known as the forte.

The extra length was only really useful for poking at lightly armored targets over the shoulders of shieldmen, as any impact or contact with another blade past the forte was guaranteed to snap or bend the entire blade.

Helmet cutting is a time honored practice, and a demonstration of skill. Not everyone could do it, but it was common enough and there are many historical accounts of it occurring on the battlefield. It requires a 45 degree angle of contact, and essentially isn’t possible with a straight blade due to its more fragile construction. Although there are some (dubious) accounts of famous knights with wootz steel swords accomplishing it. Most of which were curved.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not cutting a plate steel helmet, with any sword. And longswords didn't easily break or bend, at least not permanently. They were tempered like a spring, designed to be flexible to absorb impacts that would otherwise permanently bend an inferior Japanese weapon, which used steel closer resembling what Romans used in Europe 1,000 years before any knights appeared.
Автор сообщения: Ulfrinn
Автор сообщения: permanent name

The extra length of european blades meant that less than half of the edge was usable for cutting, known as the forte.

The extra length was only really useful for poking at lightly armored targets over the shoulders of shieldmen, as any impact or contact with another blade past the forte was guaranteed to snap or bend the entire blade.

Helmet cutting is a time honored practice, and a demonstration of skill. Not everyone could do it, but it was common enough and there are many historical accounts of it occurring on the battlefield. It requires a 45 degree angle of contact, and essentially isn’t possible with a straight blade due to its more fragile construction. Although there are some (dubious) accounts of famous knights with wootz steel swords accomplishing it. Most of which were curved.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not cutting a plate steel helmet, with any sword. And longswords didn't easily break or bend, at least not permanently. They were tempered like a spring, designed to be flexible to absorb impacts that would otherwise permanently bend an inferior Japanese weapon, which used steel closer resembling what Romans used in Europe 1,000 years before any knights appeared.

I’m afraid europe repeatedly destroyed its steel industry as well as the steel industry of their neighbors, and that at many time periods used steel so bad it was less effective than regular wrought iron would have been. It was more likely for the blade to bend and for the tip to snap off and spring away.

Again, the average samurai helmet was equal to the best examples of european plate helmets, and achieved that status hundreds of years before them. The historical accounts are quite clear, and many still practice helmet cutting today.
Автор сообщения: Munithe EXT
No one has mentioned horses either. Japanese samurai had slow weak ponies, English would have had Thoroughbreds.
Interesting! What is the evidence that they were weak?
Автор сообщения: Munithe EXT
They are ponies, not horses.
LMAO, I just realized that after asking!
Автор сообщения: Scurrybt
Автор сообщения: Munithe EXT
They are ponies, not horses.
LMAO, I just realized that after asking!

Yeah, if you want an example of the kind of horse a knight would have had, look up the Percheron. They are the embodiment of raw power.
Отредактировано Ulfrinn; 9 мар. 2023 г. в 6:30
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