The Off Topic Philosophy Club - Intellectual Conversations

[Apexnexius]

Philosophy

Every human being ponders. Many of us have favorite philosophers.
Some like Schopenhauer others prefer Kant.
Some enjoy Aristotle others enjoy Kierkegaard.

What are your favorite philosophers and what philosophy do you yourself adhere to?

Feel free to contribute and ask interesting questions or perhaps try to answer them.

Keep it civil and enjoy the conversation. :)



EDIT: It took a few pages of replies, but finally we got the discussions going. Thank you to every scholar and like minded individual who are sharing from their thoughts and wisdom.

Very interesting and provocative indeed. Truthfully, many quality users in Off Topic responding and discussing.

[Saarath]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von K3-27:

You lower yourself to others, what purpose does this serve.

Is it to entertain, inform or something else? That being said, why even attempt to have an intelligent conversation if one is pulling their punches?

I don't lower myself, I merely express my sentiments, and expose others to opinions and ideas they may not be familiar with. This is the great project of cosmopolitanism, which I am a proponent of.

I'm not pulling punches, I simply think a modicum of civility in these forums is important.

Understood,

Hence I will presume 'Dead boring and pointless' is not actually the reason for your disagreement there must have been something more compelling.

I apologise for the digression I will leave you to it.

[Vendicator Senpai]

"Spaghetti" - Abraham Lincoln, The Art of War

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

I don't lower myself, as I am not in a higher position. I'm literally post #172 in this thread.

I merely express my sentiments, and expose others to opinions and ideas they may not be familiar with. This is the great project of cosmopolitanism, which I am a proponent of.

I'm not pulling punches, I simply think a modicum of civility in these forums is important.

Could you then acknowledge that others have a different viewpoint than you which could be valid even if you don’t agree with it?

Civility isn’t something you just force on other people, if ‘cosmopolitanism’ is the thing then I realize for one, that others know things I don’t. We all may be aware of things that others are not, and that seems to be one of the positive things going on here.

For me, your comment is what I consider 'appeal to an absolute ideal.' This means that you are figuring yourself and your ideas as an abstract universal and then arguing, as an attorney would, as though this pre-figured abstract universal is your client.

It's a sneaky way of keeping a rational face, while arguing for and on behalf of, utterly inane concepts and ideas. So no, I cannot acknowledge validity if it expresses itself in the form I have just described.

[Saarath]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

For me, your comment is what I consider 'appeal to an absolute ideal.' This means that you are figuring yourself and your ideas as an abstract universal and then arguing, as an attorney would, as though this pre-figured abstract universal is your client.

It's a sneaky way of keeping a rational face, while arguing for and on behalf of, utterly inane concepts and ideas. So no, I cannot acknowledge validity if it expresses itself in the form I have just described.

Uh okay, actually I'm pretty open to other ideas it's just I can't really fight for other people's ideas, so all I have to present are my own ones.

Well that's cool if you think so

Thanks.

Technically no one has a claim to an idea/concept, Who owns the concept of the wheel or a pantheon of deities?

If one adheres to a concept, they ought to be able to defend it rhetorically at minimum.

Or has your surface been scratched, revealing nothing but a hollow interior.

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

For me, your comment is what I consider 'appeal to an absolute ideal.' This means that you are figuring yourself and your ideas as an abstract universal and then arguing, as an attorney would, as though this pre-figured abstract universal is your client.

It's a sneaky way of keeping a rational face, while arguing for and on behalf of, utterly inane concepts and ideas. So no, I cannot acknowledge validity if it expresses itself in the form I have just described.

Uh okay, actually I'm pretty open to other ideas it's just I can't really fight for other people's ideas, so all I have to present are my own ones.

Well if that's what you think, that's cool

Thx.

I believe 2 other users were commenting earlier about how creating music is tricky because what you might think is an 'original' idea, is merely a repetition of some previously experienced musical earworm. Harold Bloom (an academic) calls this feeling "The anxiety of influence." This is what burdens us in the modern age given the advancements in archival storage.

I think the concept of 'original' is a highly suspect one, and perhaps the only thing that accurately describes "creation of the new" is the creation of difference. When I read someone use a term that I know is not theirs, like in your use of 'Oriental,' I take the time to point it out.

There is immense knowledge in the world, there should be no excuse for ignorance.

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von K3-27:

If one adheres to a concept, they ought to be able to defend it rhetorically at minimum.

Precisely.

[sleeps]

i want to look up marcus aero idk his name, his book named meditations and want to learn more about stoicism. it seems like self control to an extra. i heard that you can't control your past but you can control what is present now (or something like that) so i think it's quite insightful

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von K3-27:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

I don't lower myself, I merely express my sentiments, and expose others to opinions and ideas they may not be familiar with. This is the great project of cosmopolitanism, which I am a proponent of.

I'm not pulling punches, I simply think a modicum of civility in these forums is important.

Understood,

Hence I will presume 'Dead boring and pointless' is not actually the reason for your disagreement there must have been something more compelling.

I apologise for the digression I will leave you to it.

Apology not needed. I'll explain why I vehemently disagreed.

A rock is never just a rock. It is always a part of an array of objects -- a field of stone, a paved road, a marker for someone's grave, something thrown through a window. To disregard that a simple rock is in play with other objects, which changes the meaning of the rock itself, is borderline you-know-what.

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

I believe 2 other users were commenting earlier about how creating music is tricky because what you might think is an 'original' idea, is merely a repetition of some previously experienced musical earworm. Harold Bloom (an academic) calls this feeling "The anxiety of influence." This is what burdens us in the modern age given the advancements in archival storage.

I think the concept of 'original' is a highly suspect one, and perhaps the only thing that accurately describes "creation the new" is the creation of difference. When I read someone use a term that I know is not theirs, like in your use of 'Oriental,' I take the time to point it out.

There is immense knowledge in the world, there should be no excuse for ignorance.

Just I am not sure... Where to even begin to talk about what I referenced because usually people don't talk about these Asian 'philosophies' and the one I mainly utilize would be Zen. What your basis is for saying their inane, I don't know when what I find is there is a lot of practicality in its usage in my every day life.

Although I don't go around saying I'm a "Zen" person, what I have learned so far I pretty much have integrated into my life, so it's not something I really have to defend..

I don't think modern day USA culture is a place you can practice actual Zen.

But, let's presume I'm wrong. Zen works through koans, stories that are meant to create great doubt in Zen practitioners.

List 2 koans please.

[Saarath]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von K3-27:

Understood,

Hence I will presume 'Dead boring and pointless' is not actually the reason for your disagreement there must have been something more compelling.

I apologise for the digression I will leave you to it.

Apology not needed. I'll explain why I vehemently disagreed.

A rock is never just a rock. It is always a part of an array of objects -- a field of stone, a paved road, a marker for someone's grave, something thrown through a window. To disregard that a simple rock is in play with other objects, which changes the meaning of the rock itself, is borderline you-know-what.

Seconded.

[Holografix]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

You're not actually supposed to teach Zen, by the way.

"He who knows, does not say, he who says does not know"

To me those 'teachings' I spoke of are about understanding and knowing reality in our experience, being able to deal with difficulties and not being stopped or just to go on.

I don't say that I'm a formal student, tbh I would probably not want to be a formal student.

In any case, thank you for the discussion and I hope that has been adequate

Fair enough. I did enjoy the koans.

But here are some modern day koans from the movie Mystery Men:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5I94bT23cQ

The Sphinx speaks!

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grynn:

...
Nihilism is freedom.

If I oversimplify things a bit, then imo :

Choice is freedom.
and
if someone's choice is commitment,
then commitment is that someone's personal freedom.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.
(Yes, there's some nuance to it.)

---

So, about the nuance...

imo. Freely selected-choice is freedom,
particularly the consequences that come AFTER externally unfettered choice prior to selection

(ie. the consequences of an un-pressured choice and after all imposed values and expectations have been rejected, and additionally all options are made available, rather than just settling for what is accessible, allowing one to review their options and internalize whichever values that they would truly choose for their self)

Same concept with confinement and restrictions as with commitment.
...which "things like ... ideals, morality, value, ... religion" fit into those 3 concepts, and can be someone's personal freedom if that is what they want.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grynn:

... Well nihilism rejects all that. It's like a spring-cleaning of the mind. You'll never be burdened with things like meaning, purpose, ideals, morality, value, philosophy, religion, etc again.
...

I'm sure that it's freeing to live in an empty or minimalist house if that's what, where, and how someone wants to be living but in that regard, they're making a choice to commit to rejection of "burdens", which can become a burden of its own for anyone who actually is fond of those "burdens" - and is a choice that others would not make because, for many, it's not what they would want.

For this reason, while I find nihilism useful, I don't equate it to freedom - not universally anyways, but maybe to someone's personal freedom.
I do equate it to the process of freeing ones self, but only where it is either used temporarily as a tool for achieving that process and / or where it becomes the freely-selected commitment that one makes after rejecting external pressures.

There's a saying, "the heart wants what the heart wants",
and denying one's self either simple pleasures or commitments that they continue to desire within themselves, is a burden of its own.
One who lives such a life but does not have the desire to do so, will always be free to go everywhere that they don't want to and only everywhere that they don't want to.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GunsForBucks:

https://youtu.be/1kDso5ElFRg
...

...

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Holografix:

...a rock is a rock, is dead boring and pointless.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grynn:

...
You see? Humans will never be satisfied with reality, so we look for something that isn't there.
...

Imagination allows people to impose their will and impose change upon reality
...more or less; the deeper truth is that even this is a part of reality itself.

Ideas exist in a strange state in-between real and not real. They aren't tangible objects in the tangible world, but they do correspond with data stored in tangible objects in the tangible world, and that data can manifest itself as a change in an environment of reality.

So yes, a rock is a rock, but if you throw it then it becomes a projectile and if you could carefully crack it open and hollow it out, it would become a container.
All that is, is exactly as it first appears, but also has the potential to become... more.

...this isn't to say that one can't have baseless beliefs that are false or purely preferential, and make up things like spirituality, but there are some truths that go beyond the immediate world-state of how things are and those are the options for how things could be changed.

[kbiz]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Agent Smith:

A philosopher, a mathematician, and a physicist were at Starbucks.

The mathematician turns to the physicist sitting next to him and says "You know, physics is just applied mathematics..."

They all have a good laugh, at which point the philosopher interjects from across the table. "And mathematics is just applied philosophy!"

The laughter roars even louder, and then the physicist turns to the philosopher.... "Shut the ♥♥♥♥ up and make my coffee."

Shh. Your placement of a joke right in the middle of a serious club discussiion was out of line.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grynn:

...
You see? Humans will never be satisfied with reality, so we look for something that isn't there.

At the end of the day we're just animals howling in the dark because it's better than silence. And despite how hard you imagine different you'll never be more than what you are.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

... We might be animals howling in the dark, but I believe it is possible for animals to have some calm, some peace of being and enjoy themselves. ...

...like howling to varied pitches and rhythms, in order to create music.
...and this music thing becomes a game, and that game is meaning within itself;
something that exists because we created it and will continue to exist for as long as we choose to keep it going. ..except it might actually exist if evolution is real and IF the rest of the universe actually exists because some other alien life-form might "invent" it even after we abandon it.

So, does this music "game" represent some value or truth about the universe?
...maybe... we are a part of the universe after-all.
We're probably governed by the same patterns as all of the rest of existence, which appears to be vast. We can't know that for sure.

If we want to put a label to it, I don't know that I am when it comes to philosophy and religion.
I'd be some sort of mix between agnostic, solipsistic, and active-nihilist, and something else, I guess.

Understanding the "is ought problem" or "hume's guillotine"[en.wikipedia.org]
(named after David Hume, who I only pay attention to because of this important philosophical problem that has relevant application to A.I. creation & safety concerns)
...seems to give some resolution to the existential crisis that people feel when they enter a state of nihilism, though.

While there might not be some innate force or value in the universe that says how things should be, there are such values within each conscious mind that has preferences over world-states.
So, consequently, there IS meaning to things ...and it's the meaning which you create.

It can be alarming at first to come to the realization that you have terminal goals that are essentially programming within yourself and the only reason that you want anything is because you're programmed to want it and (probably) not because it's actually something that has any intrinsic value to reality (although the rest of reality created you so... maybe?), but this can also be liberating as you come to terms with the fact that there's technically nothing you can do wrong as long as you can continue without regret.

Do you value stamps and want to collect all of the stamps in the world? You can do that!
Want to turn the entire world and all of the people in it into stamps? Y- you can do that!

Technically, it's only wrong because other living beings are programmed to say that it's wrong.

You might want to pop the hood and try to understand your own hidden internal code before turning everyone into stamps, though, because you might find that you actually did value people and killing everyone actually goes against your truth. It's not something you can undo if you suddenly realize that you don't like your decision afterwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mattmoo:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Grynn:

...

That’s one way of looking at it, another way might be simply making the most out of our time and life.
...