Rings of Power and toxic Tolkien fandom.

[Apexnexius]

I'm so sad seeing the Lord of the Rings Tolkien community now turning Tolkien into a toxic fandom.
So many Tolkien fans are now showing their true colors.

The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and Silmarillion is for everyone, not just for some people.
..Middle-earth is also for women, people of color, non binary, transgender LGBTQ and other communities.

We should all support Amazon's new show Rings of Power.
Tall proud dark and/or black people in Númenor is not dangerous to Tolkien's work. It actually enriches the lore.

Again, we should all support Rings of Power and be more positive to each other.
I'm sure both J. R. R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien wanted it this way.


Friday 22nd of July Edit:

New The Rings of Power - SDCC Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnQDsaxHZU


Edit 2:
On the behalf of the whole community I would like to thank everyone who has come to the defense of Amazon's decision to make Lord of the Rings more inclusive.
And it is needed !

Oprindeligt skrevet af MistyMountainHop:

So Sauron is an edgy twink Eminem.

Forget it. I'm out.

Just look at the horrendous comment above from this person.
Twink is a derogatory slur against queers. Read the lore in Silmarillion. Sauron had many shapes throughout the ages in MIddle-earth.

Tolkien was never about normative feelings. Just look at Frodo and Sam.
And Gandalf, played by Ian McKellen, is actually gay.
Please do not feel threatened by change.

J. R. R. Tolkien's universe is in good hands.



August 7th Super Edit:
@The Quartering, jeremo (at 6:53 in his/her video below)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp5OS1JE-Y4
Gandalf the Grey has 'de facto' cheerful gay happy feelings towards Hobbits, read the books for god's sake !
Also, Gandalf actually transitions several times (according to Tolkien lore).
One of the many times he transitioned, Gandalf transitioned from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. Tolkien is all about change and transitioning.
J. R. R. Tolkien went through World War 1 and came out as a different man. A changed man.

Amazon is doing the right thing here. It's all fabulous.



Edit 4:
If Gollum were to suddenly jump up from the river, sword in hand, landing on Elrond's ship while screaming..
" ..It's Tolkien Time precious ! "

That would be completely fine. You see, we are actually tolerant Tolkien fans.



Edit August 10th:
This was the most fun Steam Off Topic has ever been.
I'm leaving this thread open for those of you still interested in discussing Amazon's Rings of Power.
But I'm gonna have to unsubscribe. I lost interest early on, the very moment Amazon announced that they were involved.

If we are all wrong and it turns out the show is exciting (I highly doubt it) then I might start a subscription to Amazon Prime.

That's it !
Time to buy some Steam PC Games. Europa Universalis 4 here I come !

Game On dweebs !



-This thread is $150.000 dollar college degree certified-

[ChaffyExpert]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af DasWulf:

I'd argue its not very subjective, as much as it requires a visual library of the typical range of looks Europeans had in the region, as well as their social classes. A lack of understanding mixed with literal interpretations and conclusions based on international peoples is clearly a jump too far from the intended description.

The actor that played Sam, like many actors, was simply the byproduct of an actors life style. Some might even call it pampered. Thus its not surprising he looked that way, though I agree they should have toiled him up a bit to make him fit the role better. Have him plow a field for a week or two.

I'd say Sean Bean's complexion in this picture is more on point with the browner of skin Tolkien was describing: https://static.accessonline.com/uploads/147440.jpg

Middle-Earth is a fantasy world, it is not Europe.
That is the point of the debate here, its a fantasy world, sure it takes inspiration (and changes them a lot) from various sagas and such.... Norse in particular (obviously)

But the discriptions made in the book, clearly do state they are not fair skinned.
Then we can always argue, what "browner" entails, that can be extremely subjective and sure, I would even go with your take here, but that is not how it pans out in the adaption and nobody cares, becuase... well.. bias..

People take stuff much too seriously and compare it to real life way to much.. accept that art is manipulated to suit the current trends of society, if you do not, then you wont find any peace, nor or in the future.

You're the one saying Sam is too white, for all we know Hotfoots are slightly lighter skinned than Spanish or Greeks, or the color of your average Englishman working outside.

So, you are the one saying LOTR is inaccurate because Sam is "too white" , and thus, your own argument proves your point wrong. If we don't know for sure, if it's subjective, then how do you know Sam is too white?

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Traror:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Middle-Earth is a fantasy world, it is not Europe.
That is the point of the debate here, its a fantasy world, sure it takes inspiration (and changes them a lot) from various sagas and such.... Norse in particular (obviously)

But the discriptions made in the book, clearly do state they are not fair skinned.
Then we can always argue, what "browner" entails, that can be extremely subjective and sure, I would even go with your take here, but that is not how it pans out in the adaption and nobody cares, becuase... well.. bias..

People take stuff much too seriously and compare it to real life way to much.. accept that art is manipulated to suit the current trends of society, if you do not, then you wont find any peace, nor or in the future.

You're the one saying Sam is too white, for all we know Hotfoots are slightly lighter skinned than Spanish or Greeks, or the color of your average Englishman working outside.

So, you are the one saying LOTR is inaccurate because Sam is "too white" , and thus, your own argument proves your point wrong. If we don't know for sure, if it's subjective, then how do you know Sam is too white?

I really need to go to bed, so this will be a short reply.

What I said, is that if you nitpick about stuff in this adaption, but not in the other, then you are a hypocrite. That is what I am saying. Personally I don´t care about whatever physical apperence the various characters and monsters have, as long as its within reasonable belieability and logically excuted.. (I don´t care about Sam´s apperence, nor about the dark skinned Harfoot in this new show)

That is the entire point, either you feel relaxed about (and don´t care about anything) the lore or you want it to be somewhat belieable and logical to the source or you want to nitpick..

What many do in this thread, is nitpicking and focusing on rather small creative freedoms, that should not really disturb most people, unless.. your bias is so extreme, that you don´t care about lore, but instead a specific thing (like ie, not wanting to see a specific gender, eye colour or monster from the lore, being included) Whatever bias it is..

So make up your mind, do you hate all of the adaption and actually just wants to read the books again? or do you accept the belieable creative changes or are you relaxed about whatever..

Goodnight

[DasWulf]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Middle-Earth is a fantasy world, it is not Europe.

Middle-Earth is Europe. Tolkien purposefully wrote it that way as well. He was very interested in providing and adding to the myths and legends for his beloved country, England and its people. The shire for example was literally based off the English countryside. Also keep in mind the British Isles were once connected to the rest of Europe, and some of Europe's most ancient people existed in the lands now submerged under water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmqDjPW6kxU

It is fascinating to think of what was going through Tolkien's mind when mapping out a larger Europe as Middle Earth, because is what it is.

[Your_White_Knight]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

...What I said, is that if you nitpick about stuff in this adaption, but not in the other, then you are a hypocrite...

That's like saying "one or two things were wrong ( and even that is debatable ) in the the other movies... so having EVERYTHING wrong in this one is fine... stop "nitpicking" is a joke...

It's been a long road from where people were calling Tolkien a "racist" and then trying to say that Tolkien had written "gay" characters you have to "read between the lines".... to just throwing Tolkien out of his own works and making up what they couldn't prove before in their own version of "Tolkien" and still trying to call it "Tolkien"... to just admiring it's all just their made up "diversity" agenda...

Comparing the other movies to this show... is like trying to compare ant hills to mountains of wrong... Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit weren't perfect.. but they were WAY closer then this Rings of Power garbage that is a mirror opposite of what he wrote.

Talk about being a hypocrite...

Oprindeligt skrevet af DasWulf:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Middle-Earth is a fantasy world, it is not Europe.

Middle-Earth is Europe. Tolkien purposefully wrote it that way as well. He was very interested in providing and adding to the myths and legends for his beloved country, England and its people. The shire for example was literally based off the English countryside. Also keep in mind the British Isles were once connected to the rest of Europe, and some of Europe's most ancient people existed in the lands now submerged under water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DECwfQQqRzo

It is fascinating to think of what was going through Tolkien's mind when mapping out a larger Europe as Middle Earth, because is what it is.

Pretty much...

Like the old saying goes "you write what you know"... yes he wrote a fantasy and not a history book but he wrote it like it ~was~ history... the kind of history his country would have, not the entire world's.

Just because some few people think everything should be about the world and it's current day issues... doesn't mean it has to be in a FANTASY story.

I swear if anyone says "yEs bUt iT iS fAnTaSy sO tHeN aNyThInG gOeS..." again...

Read
his
writings

It's not there.. it never was... and it never should be.

Edit;

Right... I'm off to see a movie...

[Apexnexius]

Everyone should relax a little. Tolkien made up everything in his books. There is literally nothing at stake here. It's just fantasy.
Not serious sci-fi.

Most academics does not even consider Tolkien to be literature.
Fantasy is the lowest of the lowest genre.

You all discuss black hobbit harefoots like they exist for gods sake !

You can make up anything you want in fantasy, that's just how fantasy works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbgJLVEqSo

[ChaffyExpert]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Traror:

You're the one saying Sam is too white, for all we know Hotfoots are slightly lighter skinned than Spanish or Greeks, or the color of your average Englishman working outside.

So, you are the one saying LOTR is inaccurate because Sam is "too white" , and thus, your own argument proves your point wrong. If we don't know for sure, if it's subjective, then how do you know Sam is too white?

I really need to go to bed, so this will be a short reply.

What I said, is that if you nitpick about stuff in this adaption, but not in the other, then you are a hypocrite. That is what I am saying. Personally I don´t care about whatever physical apperence the various characters and monsters have, as long as its within reasonable belieability and logically excuted.. (I don´t care about Sam´s apperence, nor about the dark skinned Harfoot in this new show)

That is the entire point, either you feel relaxed about (and don´t care about anything) the lore or you want it to be somewhat belieable and logical to the source or you want to nitpick..

What many do in this thread, is nitpicking and focusing on rather small creative freedoms, that should not really disturb most people, unless.. your bias is so extreme, that you don´t care about lore, but instead a specific thing (like ie, not wanting to see a specific gender, eye colour or monster from the lore, being included) Whatever bias it is..

So make up your mind, do you hate all of the adaption and actually just wants to read the books again? or do you accept the belieable creative changes or are you relaxed about whatever..

Goodnight

No it's not hypocritical, Sam's skin color established in LOTR movies as a harfoot establishes them as somewhat white, that is canon.So, Amazon is changing canon, since Tokien didn't specify a skin-color.

[ambi]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Perquisitore:

+800 posts, I hope I can see it going for +1000.

it just proves that watching Rings of Power burn to the ground is more fun than the show itself.

[Silverlight]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Apexnexius:

Most academics does not even consider Tolkien to be literature.
Fantasy is the lowest of the lowest genre.

*oof*

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Your_White_Knight:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

...What I said, is that if you nitpick about stuff in this adaption, but not in the other, then you are a hypocrite...

That's like saying "one or two things were wrong ( and even that is debatable ) in the the other movies... so having EVERYTHING wrong in this one is fine... stop "nitpicking" is a joke...

It's been a long road from where people were calling Tolkien a "racist" and then trying to say that Tolkien had written "gay" characters you have to "read between the lines".... to just throwing Tolkien out of his own works and making up what they couldn't prove before in their own version of "Tolkien" and still trying to call it "Tolkien"... to just admiring it's all just their made up "diversity" agenda...

Comparing the other movies to this show... is like trying to compare ant hills to mountains of wrong... Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit weren't perfect.. but they were WAY closer then this Rings of Power garbage that is a mirror opposite of what he wrote.

Talk about being a hypocrite...

Oprindeligt skrevet af DasWulf:

Middle-Earth is Europe. Tolkien purposefully wrote it that way as well. He was very interested in providing and adding to the myths and legends for his beloved country, England and its people. The shire for example was literally based off the English countryside. Also keep in mind the British Isles were once connected to the rest of Europe, and some of Europe's most ancient people existed in the lands now submerged under water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DECwfQQqRzo

It is fascinating to think of what was going through Tolkien's mind when mapping out a larger Europe as Middle Earth, because is what it is.

Pretty much...

Like the old saying goes "you write what you know"... yes he wrote a fantasy and not a history book but he wrote it like it ~was~ history... the kind of history his country would have, not the entire world's.

Just because some few people think everything should be about the world and it's current day issues... doesn't mean it has to be in a FANTASY story.

I swear if anyone says "yEs bUt iT iS fAnTaSy sO tHeN aNyThInG gOeS..." again...

Read
his
writings

It's not there.. it never was... and it never should be.

Edit;

Right... I'm off to see a movie...

No. not just one or two thing, a lot of stuff were out of lore and a lot of things had been changed to project values.. you might likely don´t see it, but it is actually rather easy to spot.
This happens in all art ofc, so it is not really an issue.. the fun thing is when people only complain about the adaptations or even rewriting of stuff they dislike.

Again we both agree, this is pure fantasy. He took sagas from the real world, made up his own world and own struggles (many of them directly copied but with a modern take for that time)


The point here is, that Tolkiens entire point, was to project society and his views into his fantasy story... (that is why cats are hated so much in the series) and plenty of other things..
The first adaptation to the screen, was ofc also tainted by bias of the current world image, so was the last adaptation.. and so is this new show.

But basically, the only argument against the changes I see is "I don´t agree with this world view, so its propaganda" I am yet to see more meritted attacks on the changes, inspirations and such.. I am perfectly fine about people wanting the books lore to be 100% represented, but then my advice would be to stick with the book (most book adaptions to screen is awful)

Much of Tolkiens mindset is actually rather Victorian if you ask me.


The story is not very complex and have your usual heroes and villians, while also having a "they swing both ways" party and more neutral tones.. (selfish some may say)
But overall, it is about coming together and overcoming together... If anything, Tolkien was actually more inclined to moral, rather than boxing via apperences... unless ofc.. we talk about the "evil" that is always "evil" but that is common in art, there always is an "enemy"


However.. when we "judge" and try to find "reason" in other people´s art, then we also project our own bias into the mixture, something many people forget, if we wanted, we could find a lot of things and even logically argue for it.. that is why you see claims about Tolkiens work being discriminative and "racist" some have him as a anti racist and jolly fellow, some have him as a complicated neutral portrayer, some..... your own bias plays more into this, than anything.. like with just about any art.



But let me tell you this at the end, if you only want close to source or fully true adaptations from books to screen, then you will be hard pressed in most cases and be better off just sticking to the original source.... Even with much older art, we still mass debate just about anything.. I mean.. we still can´t even agree upon what "Good" and "Evil" is... infact I would argue, that most people can´t even agree on what a chair is.

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Traror:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

I really need to go to bed, so this will be a short reply.

What I said, is that if you nitpick about stuff in this adaption, but not in the other, then you are a hypocrite. That is what I am saying. Personally I don´t care about whatever physical apperence the various characters and monsters have, as long as its within reasonable belieability and logically excuted.. (I don´t care about Sam´s apperence, nor about the dark skinned Harfoot in this new show)

That is the entire point, either you feel relaxed about (and don´t care about anything) the lore or you want it to be somewhat belieable and logical to the source or you want to nitpick..

What many do in this thread, is nitpicking and focusing on rather small creative freedoms, that should not really disturb most people, unless.. your bias is so extreme, that you don´t care about lore, but instead a specific thing (like ie, not wanting to see a specific gender, eye colour or monster from the lore, being included) Whatever bias it is..

So make up your mind, do you hate all of the adaption and actually just wants to read the books again? or do you accept the belieable creative changes or are you relaxed about whatever..

Goodnight

No it's not hypocritical, Sam's skin color established in LOTR movies as a harfoot establishes them as somewhat white, that is canon.So, Amazon is changing canon, since Tokien didn't specify a skin-color.

Canon is that they are not fair skinned, they are more Brown, than the two other tribes.
So being extremely fair skinned (almost milky) is not very canon.
That being said, it is extremely "loose" in the description, as I mentioned to the other poster earlier and that is the key point here.. it is up to "you" to analyse and argue a logical and belieable take on what is what and how is how.

My point her ebeing, that with such loose description, even kan be logically inserted and often will be, often in the image of society (that is just how art work)

But again.. being more brownish than a Fallowhide, can really mean a lot ofc.. it is always up for debate.



Whatever our take or projection, I will say this.
We always have a chance, nobody is forcing us to watch this show or not too.. People can make up their own mind, if they want to hear this new "creative" story, taken from the lore of LotR. Some might find it boring, some fun, it is a matter of subjectivity.

Don´t expect this to be a true adaptation of the books......... even the movies meant to do this was not...

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Apexnexius:

Everyone should relax a little. Tolkien made up everything in his books. There is literally nothing at stake here. It's just fantasy.
Not serious sci-fi.

Most academics does not even consider Tolkien to be literature.
Fantasy is the lowest of the lowest genre.

You all discuss black hobbit harefoots like they exist for gods sake !

You can make up anything you want in fantasy, that's just how fantasy works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbgJLVEqSo

That is the entire point.

It is just fantasy and fantasy is often made in the image of society or struggles there. That is what fantasy is good at, it takes us away from the real world and lets us talk about real issues in society or struggles, while not offending anyone..


Now excuse me.. I need to play some Baldur´s Gate III... I wish I could replay with this character, so far this was my favourite to "try and break" the game with, (its in EA)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2833670748

Playing a deep gnome have been extremely interesting.
(hint hint... D&D also takes inspiration from a few things.. guess what)

[Dracoco OwO]

Oprindeligt skrevet af DasWulf:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Naru, The Unceasing Advance:

See? Valve, the world's first defacto monopoly holders on the PC games market, donated $29,000 to a politician who claims inflation is just theoretical.

On a side note, Valve, for as much as people praise their platform, is the biggest reason PC gamers can't enjoy physical copy games anymore. Its definitely not all roses and rainbows with Valve.

That's actually absolutely true.

[76561198278961361]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Traror:

Oprindeligt skrevet af under construction:

our existence isn't something you can "agree" or "disagree" with, we simply exist, we simply are who we are
what you're saying makes as much sense as saying "not everyone agrees with the whole black people thing"

and no, having lgbt characters in a show won't make your kids lgbt
for that matter i'm not sure the lotr franchise would qualify as "for kids" anyway
even still, i don't think it'd be a bad thing for kids to be aware that you can be more than just cishet and that there's nothing wrong with that– personally i would've loved to know i was trans before i had to go through a whole puberty, as that would've given me a chance to set that puberty straight instead of having to meddle with a second puberty in order to get my body to suit me

Actually it is, again, not everybody agrees with that/

Well something is, because the LGBTQ+ community is extremely regional. In any case, somebody that doesn't agree with the LGBTQ+ stuff isn't going to watch, nor should they have to. It's like forcing jews to watch Nazi propaganda.

lgbt people aren't regional, acceptance and knowledge about us is
those are not the same things

and if you think seeing lgbt people exist in a show you don't need to watch is comparable to jewish people being made to watch nazi propaganda about how they're the lowest kind of human, i think that's more an issue with you and how you perceive lgbt people

[hodgicus]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum 2.0:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Morkonan:

Sadly, I've never played it. IIRC, it's still mod-restricted and can't be modded... which is what I'd love to do to it. Plus, it's got that "online" thing, right?

It can be modded, but I have no idea how much and in what ways because why would you even mod it, especially if you've never played it before? It's awesome as it is. I'll get back to mods in a bit. Online thing as in the multiplayer mode? That isn't too good, not really worth bothering with at all despite the game being in my top 3 of all time. Yeah, it requires the stupid Rockstar Launcher and Internet connection only to start up the game. By "only", I mean, it still sucks, but it could've been worse.

Now, back to mods. I replay Fallout 3, NV and 4 religiously (and 1 and 2, but that's a different story), I never get tired of them, I've never touched a single mod and I don't intend to, ever. Apparently, the games are "garbage" and "too buggy to be playable", but I never had issues other than just one quest which stopped progressing, then I simply entered a console command to trigger the next objective manually, then it was as if nothing happened. That's all. I replayed them far too many times, I had save files with hundreds of hours on them on many occasions and never any issues at all. The games are some of the most fun I've ever played and no matter how many times I replay them, they're always simply awesome. I beat Skyrim a couple of times, not exactly a big fan of the game, but literally zero issues there as well.

I went from Red Dead Redemption 2 which has the best graphics of all games, straight to System Shock 2 (yes, the one from my profile picture), Thief Gold and Thief 2 which I never played until a few months ago. Embarrassing, I know, but better late than never, I guess. Now, I played these games with their 1999, 1998 and 2000 graphics respectively and I never even noticed an issue at all. All 3 ended up being some of my favorites (Thief games in top 10, System Shock 2 in top 3 along with Alien: Isolation and Red Dead Redemption 2) regardless. I didn't touch a single mod for textures or anything because there's just no need and it would look weird, it would just stand out too much and wouldn't feel authentic. Again, I went from Red Dead Redemption 2 graphics directly to these games and they still ended up being some of my favorites, completely unmodded.

I'm a huge purist when it comes to mods in games and cars, I find them a disgrace and I want everything in the original state, or at least with necessary patches for games to run on mdoern hardware properly without altering anything at all. I think it's disrespectful as well because surely the original developers with the original vision and idea behind the whole thing must know better than some random self-proclaimed Internet "experts". I love these games and I appreciate them as they are, so I don't want to turn them into something they're not supposed to be. Fallout 3 has the iconic green tint post-processing effect and that's what makes Fallout 3 Fallout 3 to me. When I see gameplay on YouTube with mods that remove that green tint, it's just not Fallout 3 anymore, I don't care if it's more realistic, it's not Fallout 3 and I find that to be a disgrace. Or when I look up videos of 50s American cars, then I see a generic Chinese knock-off "racing" steering wheel from eBay instead of the original massive colorful ones, it just makes me want to shoot myself. Might as well just drive some generic modern car if you want that kind of a thing, I don't get why ruin these old ones. A massive, red steering wheel with those metal rings on the inside is a major reason why I love these cars so much and I wouldn't even want to test drive one with a modern steering wheel because it would just feel like crap.

So, yeah, all the most notorious and ancient games are 100% fine in their original state in 2022, even if you've never played them before, let alone Red Dead Redemption 2. I get you might want to mess around for fun or something, but nothing is perfect and you'd get your money's worth with the game regardless, that's for sure. The game has the longest singleplayer campaign I've ever seen, yet it's also the most quality one I've ever experienced. That insane amount of quality and quantity at the exact same time is truly a miracle.

How the Vvardenfel did this poster end up banned? One of the most sane voices on here, imo.

[Fire Angel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af hodgicus:

How the Vvardenfel did this poster end up banned? One of the most sane voices on here, imo.

He said he liked controversial threads and drama which resulted in a one month ban.