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Apexnexius 2022 年 7 月 21 日 上午 9:58
22
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Rings of Power and toxic Tolkien fandom.
:nyanrainbow::RainSec:
I'm so sad seeing the Lord of the Rings Tolkien community now turning Tolkien into a toxic fandom.
So many Tolkien fans are now showing their true colors.

The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and Silmarillion is for everyone, not just for some people.
..Middle-earth is also for women, people of color, non binary, transgender LGBTQ and other communities.

We should all support Amazon's new show Rings of Power.
Tall proud dark and/or black people in Númenor is not dangerous to Tolkien's work. It actually enriches the lore.

Again, we should all support Rings of Power and be more positive to each other.
I'm sure both J. R. R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien wanted it this way. :p_heart: :lunar2020ratinablanket:


Friday 22nd of July Edit:

New The Rings of Power - SDCC Trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnQDsaxHZU


Edit 2:
On the behalf of the whole community I would like to thank everyone who has come to the defense of Amazon's decision to make Lord of the Rings more inclusive.
And it is needed !
引用自 MistyMountainHop
So Sauron is an edgy twink Eminem.

Forget it. I'm out.
Just look at the horrendous comment above from this person.
Twink is a derogatory slur against queers. Read the lore in Silmarillion. Sauron had many shapes throughout the ages in MIddle-earth.

Tolkien was never about normative feelings. Just look at Frodo and Sam. :bkira:
And Gandalf, played by Ian McKellen, is actually gay.
Please do not feel threatened by change.

J. R. R. Tolkien's universe is in good hands. :p_heart::p_heart:



August 7th Super Edit:
@The Quartering, jeremo (at 6:53 in his/her video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp5OS1JE-Y4
Gandalf the Grey has 'de facto' cheerful gay happy feelings towards Hobbits, read the books for god's sake !
Also, Gandalf actually transitions several times (according to Tolkien lore).
One of the many times he transitioned, Gandalf transitioned from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White. Tolkien is all about change and transitioning.
J. R. R. Tolkien went through World War 1 and came out as a different man. A changed man.

Amazon is doing the right thing here. It's all fabulous.



Edit 4:
If Gollum were to suddenly jump up from the river, sword in hand, landing on Elrond's ship while screaming..
" ..It's Tolkien Time precious ! "

That would be completely fine. You see, we are actually tolerant Tolkien fans. :Northmen:



Edit August 10th:
This was the most fun Steam Off Topic has ever been.
I'm leaving this thread open for those of you still interested in discussing Amazon's Rings of Power.
But I'm gonna have to unsubscribe. I lost interest early on, the very moment Amazon announced that they were involved.

If we are all wrong and it turns out the show is exciting (I highly doubt it) then I might start a subscription to Amazon Prime.

That's it !
Time to buy some Steam PC Games. Europa Universalis 4 here I come !

Game On dweebs !

:dealwithit:

-This thread is $150.000 dollar college degree certified-
最后由 Apexnexius 编辑于; 2022 年 8 月 14 日 上午 2:57
引用自 Silverlight:
引用自 Jazz
c'mon guys, this is some very thinly veiled bait
To quote Bilbo from the PJ LOTR "It was just a bit of fun!"
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正在显示第 61 - 75 条,共 1,137 条留言
AdahnGorion 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 12:02 
引用自 Battlekruse
I am looking for forward to the Lord of the Rings: Gollum video game.

I´ve heard that they have made Gollum, tall, slender and pale, to be more modern and inclusive.
After all.. the physical apperence matters not, only the personality and inclusion, most like you will not see any difference.
Apexnexius 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 2:33 
SDCC trailer out !
Kamiyama 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 2:42 
引用自 Gus the Crocodile
引用自 Kamiyama
You don't get to revise other people's literary works.
Of course you do. There are countless thousands of adaptations of Shakespeare.

It’s just as you say: what he wrote is what he wrote. New adaptations don’t delete what’s already there; anyone who wants to read the original works can just… do that instead.

It's wrong. It is historical revisionism and is evil.

Like trying to redefine marriage or when people say "that wasn't real communism"

If you don't like the someone else's work or idea you move on and find some other work or idea you like. Or make your own work or idea.

It is a grave disrespect to try and change someone else's work. I see this attitude becoming more prevalent and I think it's disgusting. Like people today don't believe in the sanctity of the truth of things. That nothing is untouchable and everything is subject to revision as long as it makes them feel good. It's a poisonous mindset to have.

So no. Tolkien is a work of literature and that's not even debatable. To say Tolkien's writings isn't a literary work the most obvious and absurd lie and I know why you would try to argue that because as long as you can reclassify something you have power over it. But I'm not going to let you lie this time.

Tolkien's work is literature. By the very definition of the term.

What is literature:
https://www.britannica.com/art/literature

The importance of the literary work of J.R.R. Tolkien:
https://lord-of-the-rings.org/tolkien/literary_work.html

Words have meanings and you don't get to twist them to suit your own ends.
ZZZZZ 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 2:43 
引用自 Battlekruse
I am looking more forward to the Lord of the Rings: Gollum video game.
bruh its so ugly, it should be illegal
Gus the Crocodile 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:16 
引用自 Kamiyama
It is a grave disrespect to try and change someone else's work.
They aren't changing Tolkein's work. The Lord of the Rings books are still right there the same as they ever were. Feel free to go and read them again!

引用自 Kamiyama
So no. Tolkien is a work of literature and that's not even debatable. To say Tolkien's writings isn't a literary work the most obvious and absurd lie and I know why you would try to argue that because as long as you can reclassify something you have power over it. But I'm not going to let you lie this time.

Tolkien's work is literature. By the very definition of the term.

What is literature:
https://www.britannica.com/art/literature

The importance of the literary work of J.R.R. Tolkien:
https://lord-of-the-rings.org/tolkien/literary_work.html

Words have meanings and you don't get to twist them to suit your own ends.
Uh, I am not the person who said Tolkein's writing isn't literature.
MinionJoe 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:24 
引用自 Gus the Crocodile
hey aren't changing Tolkein's work. The Lord of the Rings books are still right there the same as they ever were. Feel free to go and read them again!
Fair point. I believe I will go read them again instead of ever watching this small-screen travesty.
Morkonan 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:48 
引用自 Kamiyama
...
Tolkien's work is literature. By the very definition of the term.
...
Words have meanings and you don't get to twist them to suit your own ends.

I will show you an example of literature:

"I did teh poop and teh pee pee."

There ya go.

"Literature," while frequently used to refer to written works of noted quality... can refer to just about anything that's "written."

"Literature" doesn't have any legal definition.

It's wrong. It is historical revisionism and is evil.

IF a creator licenses the privilege from the IP holder, they can use another's creative work as the basis for their own creative, commercial, effort. If that license allows them a great degree of creative freedom, they can do whatever that licensing agreement says they can do with it.

If a work is outside of copyright, then it becomes "public domain." Why? Because then it allows other creators to create more stuff, maybe even using their own envisioning of the originally copyrighted work.

Your disgust is entirely misplaced. Works that move into the Public Domain ADD to the creative freedom and variety of creative works.

I do agree that some alterations can truly disrespect the work. But, at that point, it's that specific creator that should be criticized and not the action of Public Domain.

This is a pretty famous vid on the subject that brilliantly demonstrates many principles surrounding copyright, trademark, Fair Use and IP law:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo
Holografix 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:52 
引用自 Morkonan
I will show you an example of literature:

"I did teh poop and teh pee pee."
That's about on par with JRR Tolkien's oeuvre. Glad to know you appreciate real literature.
White Knight 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:58 
Which book mentioned that every being in Middle Earth had pasty white skin? I seem to remember Golum being described that way, but race and skin colour was not something that came up often enough for me to notice.

The art, cartoons, movies, etc. may have featured exclusively white characters in their depictions (if even that much is true?), but that can't be pinned on Tolkien.

As I understand it, his writings were meant as an allegory of the human condition. In what way does that have anything to do with white supremacy?

If this forum was Middle Earth, why would anyone be surprised that goblins and trolls hate this new tv show?
最后由 White Knight 编辑于; 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 5:59
[ T h e B o s s ] 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:00 
引用自 Doomerang
Who even cares, the worst thing we can do is give it any attention positive or negative. Let it fade into obscurity, that's what really gets to them. Someone else can always try later, like the many TMNT versions.
https://youtu.be/eTiAM_Xnq3A
Sup Casey. :VSnake:
Barney, from Black Mesa. 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:06 
Did you rip this post straight out of Reddit?
最后由 Barney, from Black Mesa. 编辑于; 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:06
Morkonan 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:44 
引用自 Holografix
引用自 Morkonan
I will show you an example of literature:

"I did teh poop and teh pee pee."
That's about on par with JRR Tolkien's oeuvre. Glad to know you appreciate real literature.

Well, I happen to love Tolkien's magnum opus and could, perhaps, call his work "Literature." But, that'd be just like.. my opinion an' stuff...

引用自 Parrhesiastes
Which book mentioned that every being in Middle Earth had pasty white skin? I seem to remember Golum being described that way, but race and skin colour was not something that came up often enough for me to notice.

The art, cartoons, movies, etc. may have featured exclusively white characters in their depictions (if even that much is true?), but that can't be pinned on Tolkien.

Many were always described as "fair skinned" IIRC, and, more importantly, he took particular care to describe other race's : http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Haradrim#Traits_and_culture

That's part of what formed a bit of controversy with Tolkien, but it was mostly just set aside as his work gained in popularity.

Tolkien did quite a few drawings and illustrations in his day. I don't know how many focus on the humanoids in his tales. He did more landscapes and pastorals and the like than portraits I think. There are probably a few of his drawings of various races and the like out there.

I don't know of any interpretation that lends itself to "white supremacy" though.
最后由 Morkonan 编辑于; 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:44
❤ Sly Succubus ❤ 2022 年 7 月 22 日 下午 6:52 
引用自 Morkonan
引用自 Holografix
That's about on par with JRR Tolkien's oeuvre. Glad to know you appreciate real literature.

Well, I happen to love Tolkien's magnum opus and could, perhaps, call his work "Literature." But, that'd be just like.. my opinion an' stuff...

引用自 Parrhesiastes
Which book mentioned that every being in Middle Earth had pasty white skin? I seem to remember Golum being described that way, but race and skin colour was not something that came up often enough for me to notice.

The art, cartoons, movies, etc. may have featured exclusively white characters in their depictions (if even that much is true?), but that can't be pinned on Tolkien.

Many were always described as "fair skinned" IIRC, and, more importantly, he took particular care to describe other race's : http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Haradrim#Traits_and_culture

That's part of what formed a bit of controversy with Tolkien, but it was mostly just set aside as his work gained in popularity.

Tolkien did quite a few drawings and illustrations in his day. I don't know how many focus on the humanoids in his tales. He did more landscapes and pastorals and the like than portraits I think. There are probably a few of his drawings of various races and the like out there.

I don't know of any interpretation that lends itself to "white supremacy" though.
I wanna say, idk if you can call elves, dwarfs and hobbits white to begin with as their not even human to start with. Ya Fair Skinned is different in the world of fiction which is meant to imply that they didnt have mutations of their 'other kin'

If I may use an example here, in Warcraft the Elves were decendents of the Troll Empire but the Trolls exiled them as they were "To Fair skinned" which basically means, that they were exiled as a result of ironically not being ugly enough then anything else xD
AdahnGorion 2022 年 7 月 23 日 上午 10:47 
On a serious note.

I think people forget that the US have a lot of film regulation, there are actual laws, that force them to make certain "choices" when they either make a movie or series.
The American film industry is one of the most restrictive in the world and it is the far greatest in terms of cersorship compared to any other artistic medium (ie videogames)

The current way it works, actually hurts inclusion and diversity, because it is not done artistically, but it is forced, often reducing x or y minority as a "gimmick" or "stereotypical"
Even a biased media such as Vox agree about this (think about that for a secound)

Networks also have specific roles on ie. The least % of writers that is ie. a specific gender, or a specific % of actors that needs to be x or y etnicity. (I am not joking here)
This makes it hard to actually make something immersive and specific (think about historical titles ie) because you are "forced" to have x or y % of something on screen (this could ie. be a Irish American, in a movie about China in 1255)

A casting director can´t legally ask a applicant to reveal anything about their ethnic background, religion, sexuality, etc. This means, that you ie. can´t ask an actor if they are ie. Chinese (if they applied for a Japanese role ie) couple this with the fact you need x amount of "very boxed in American style colour tone, rather than ethnicity" screen actors on each movie/series....


My point here is, that some western societies (lets take the American´s as an example) has law, that makes them focus more on having societal inclusion and representation of minorities in general (often those minorities are actually boxed and some minorities does not matter, there is no law on having an specific amount of Inuiets in your movies)

There are also laws that prevent you for making certain minority groups represented as "offenders" in law series/movies, since they enhance a society perspective on said minorities.


Again. The movie industry is extremely cencored and have many restrctions and we did not even talk about emotional, or Sexual visuals in said movies (there are harsh laws about that, believe it or not)

This all means, that when you try to adapt x or y book, you can end up with having actors/actresses that look out of context, compared to the book version, sometimes it does nothing (because the apperence has nothing to do with the character) sometimes, it breaks immersion and becomes urealistic (because of the focus of the character) Ie. When you hire an light/pale toned Englishman to play an middleeastern Arab (breaks immersion) or if you hire an actoress to play a little chubby high elf or one that stands out from the bunch (if all is pale, but then one is extremely dark toned, in skin colour.

A solution here, is to use make up or CGI.
But laws prevent you for doing that, you can´t even make x or y character an alien (even if the source material have them be purple, green, yellow or obsidian black) you have to showcase minority actor/actresses in their "pure" ethnicity..

When this happens, you don´t credit either the source material or the actor/actress..


With all this said, sometimes it can make sense to "change" and "interpret" source material and gain a better product (not everything needs to be the exact same) but the change, needs to make logical sense and be belieable.


(TLDR can start here, for more specific on topic)


In this situation with Tolkiens LotR lore, we could easily make an interesting and awesome storyline for a beautiful (no matter the gender) character (I don´t care about the actual ethnicity, gender or sexuality of the actor/actress) for a Moriquendë.

I mean.. that would properly become my favourite character if done well enough. It is based in the lore, has potential to give an interesting peak into something most don´t know and it will be a perfect way for American´s to circumveen restrictions and regulation, and still make a character focused on actual lore.


Again the most important to me, is not how humans look and what they play, the important part for me is that the role/character they play is belieable, in the setting they are in.



Instead here in modern day, people seems to be more interested in whatever eye colour, size of nose or ethnicity a particular person (not the character) have, rather than their actual character and their acting performance...

Maybe it is due to nostalgia, but if we go 25-30 years back, I had a lot less focus on whatever ethnicity, religion, gender or sexuality a actor/actress had or the character they played, the overall performance and the beliveablity (and ofc all that goes into that) of the character was what mattered.
Holografix 2022 年 7 月 23 日 上午 11:05 
引用自 Morkonan
引用自 Holografix
That's about on par with JRR Tolkien's oeuvre. Glad to know you appreciate real literature.

Well, I happen to love Tolkien's magnum opus and could, perhaps, call his work "Literature." But, that'd be just like.. my opinion an' stuff...
There is a small group of like-minded scholars who consider Tolkien's work literature, vindicated too, by Wiley-Blackwell publishing a JJ Tolkien Companion reference book. Blackwell is known for publishing the prestigious Blackwell Companions to Literature series, widely considered to elevate literary works by mere association.

However, I can't get over the pure irony of those people hating on uni degrees earned by doing coursework in Gender Studies or Social Sciences, and yet with the same mouth lauding Tolkien Studies as viable scholarship.
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所有讨论 > Steam 论坛 > Off Topic > 主题详情
发帖日期: 2022 年 7 月 21 日 上午 9:58
回复数: 1,137