Does ABS make a difference before wheels are about to be locked?

[Shodan]

I'm having a brain fart. Basically, when you don't have ABS, can you brake hard and sharply turn at the same time the same way as if you did have ABS, as long as you aren't locking up the wheels? Does ABS make a difference only in emergency braking when wheels should've been locked up or does it also make a difference outside of such extreme situations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXMW79Dcf_E

This obviously wasn't emergency braking, but he still understeered as a result of braking into the turn, something that I'm pretty sure can't happen if you have a modern car with ABS. So, this seems like ABS indeed does make a difference outside of emergencies? I have no idea anymore.

Let me try to phrase it a bit better:

When you're braking hard, but not hard enough to cause wheels to lock up, and making a sharp turn at the same time, would you still understeer without ABS despite wheels not getting locked up or would it turn perfectly as long as you aren't locking up the wheels?

I literally used to know this information, but I just got so confused that now I don't know what I know anymore and I need someone to clarify it for me.

[𝕎𝕠𝕦𝕤𝕖𝕝𝕫]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

and I need someone to clarify it for me.

And google couldn't do the job...

[Morkonan]

I don't think the Anti-Lock Braking System is going to activate during periods where conditions would not activate it....

I'm not an auto-mechanic.

[Shodan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Wouselz:

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

and I need someone to clarify it for me.

And google couldn't do the job...:iamthink:

No, it couldn't.

[Triple G]

ABS makes it so that You´re able to steer the car while fully braking. That´s the main advantage. Else You would need much more feeling in the foot to brake as hard as You can, without blocking or locking the wheels. Also You can buy new tires if You mess this up. With ABS they´re still round.

The car will under-steer if braking in a turn, because the weight pushed more to the outer front wheel. To have a better balance You would need to accelerate a bit in turns. You´ll also get slower if You would just drive through a turn without doing anything.

[Shodan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Triple G:

ABS makes it so that You´re able to steer the car while fully braking. That´s the main advantage. Else You would need much more feeling in the foot to brake as hard as You can, without blocking or locking the wheels. Also You can buy new tires if You mess this up. With ABS they´re still round.

The car will under-steer if braking in a turn, because the weight pushed more to the outer front wheel. To have a better balance You would need to accelerate a bit in turns. You´ll also get slower if You would just drive through a turn without doing anything.

I don't think it would understeer with ABS though, even if you're not locking up the wheels. Look at that video in the original post, it definitely wasn't the kind of emergency braking that would lock up the wheels. This definitely doesn't happen when you have ABS, although you should still avoid doing it whenever possible. That's why I made this post. That wasn't even close to emergency braking and it still understeered badly and with ABS, you can do it much harder with absolutely nothing happening at all.

[Your_White_Knight]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

Does ABS make a difference before wheels are about to be locked?

I'm having a brain fart. Basically, can you hardly steer and sharply turn at once without having ABS the same way as if you did have ABS, as long as the wheels aren't locked? Does ABS make a difference only in emergency braking when wheels should've been locked up or does it also make a difference outside of such extreme situations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXMW79Dcf_E

This obviously wasn't emergency braking, but he still understeered as a result of braking into the turn, something that I'm pretty sure can't happen if you have a modern car with ABS. So, this seems like ABS indeed does make a difference outside of emergencies? I have no idea anymore.

I literally used to know this information, but I just got so confused that now I don't know what I know anymore and I need someone to clarify it for me.

ABS just pumps the breaks for you ( like one should ) in case someone just jumps on the breaks... hard breaking just leads to sliding, by pumping your breaks and not sliding but stopping.

By the looks of it it wasn't a case of "under steered" he was sliding and lost steering altogether, hit the breaks, over steered causing the tires to skip and slide more... the ground look wet IMO.

[76561198356019466]

What are breaks?

[permanent name]

Modern ABS has separate hydraulic systems for steering and brakes. Early ones could sometimes lock the steering unexpectedly.

I’ve seen this clip and the car he’s driving is infamous for this problem on uneven surfaces or when part of the wheel base lifts off the ground, as it was made with fewer valves than was necessary.

[Shodan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Your_White_Knight:

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

Does ABS make a difference before wheels are about to be locked?

I'm having a brain fart. Basically, can you hardly steer and sharply turn at once without having ABS the same way as if you did have ABS, as long as the wheels aren't locked? Does ABS make a difference only in emergency braking when wheels should've been locked up or does it also make a difference outside of such extreme situations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXMW79Dcf_E

This obviously wasn't emergency braking, but he still understeered as a result of braking into the turn, something that I'm pretty sure can't happen if you have a modern car with ABS. So, this seems like ABS indeed does make a difference outside of emergencies? I have no idea anymore.

I literally used to know this information, but I just got so confused that now I don't know what I know anymore and I need someone to clarify it for me.

ABS just pumps the breaks for you ( like one should ) in case someone just jumps on the breaks... hard breaking just leads to sliding, by pumping your breaks and not sliding but stopping.

By the looks of it it wasn't a case of "under steered" he was sliding and lost steering altogether, hit the breaks, over steered causing the tires to skip and slide more... the ground look wet IMO.

Yeah, you should unwind the steering wheel instead of trying to steer even further, but what I'm saying is, I don't think this can happen in a modern car with ABS when you brake while turning like that, even though ABS apparently only kicks in when you slam the brake pedal so hard in an emergency that you're about to lock up the wheels.

[Shodan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af permanent name:

Modern ABS has separate hydraulic systems for steering and brakes. Early ones could sometimes lock the steering unexpectedly.

I’ve seen this clip and the car he’s driving is infamous for this problem on uneven surfaces or when part of the wheel base lifts off the ground, as it was made with fewer valves than was necessary.

That makes a lot more sense, thanks. So, if you did this in an average car without ABS, except you did it even harder, but not hard enough for wheels to start locking up, would you be able to turn while doing that just as if you had a modern car with all the electronic assists? The only difference is when wheels (would) start locking up?

[Triple G]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

I don't think it would understeer with ABS though, even if you're not locking up the wheels. Look at that video in the original post, it definitely wasn't the kind of emergency braking that would lock up the wheels. This definitely doesn't happen when you have ABS, although you should still avoid doing it whenever possible. That's why I made this post. That wasn't even close to emergency braking and it still understeered badly and with ABS, you can do it much harder with absolutely nothing happening at all.

I don´t need to watch a video. That´s physics. It depends on the car, the speed and how sharp the turn is - and if You´re accelerating, braking or doing nothing - and on the street or ground and the tires. ABS or not doesn´t matter for it. It´s just about that the wheels keep spinning, so You´re still able to evade something while fully braking as most people lose their fine feeling in emergency situations and never trained those or how to solve it in another way. Usually You never need ABS if You´re driving like intended. You´ll also have to be prepared when the ABS fails - which happens twice to me.

[permanent name]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

Oprindeligt skrevet af permanent name:

Modern ABS has separate hydraulic systems for steering and brakes. Early ones could sometimes lock the steering unexpectedly.

I’ve seen this clip and the car he’s driving is infamous for this problem on uneven surfaces or when part of the wheel base lifts off the ground, as it was made with fewer valves than was necessary.

That makes a lot more sense, thanks. So, if you did this in an average car without ABS, except you did it even harder, but not hard enough for wheels to start locking up, would you be able to turn while doing that just as if you had a modern car with all the electronic assists? The only difference is when wheels (would) start locking up?

As I understand it the shift towards ABS included changing the setup of the drive train and braking system to where you could no longer do so easily.

So one is ultimately at the mercy of their ABS.

[Your_White_Knight]

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Your_White_Knight:

ABS just pumps the breaks for you ( like one should ) in case someone just jumps on the breaks... hard breaking just leads to sliding, by pumping your breaks and not sliding but stopping.

By the looks of it it wasn't a case of "under steered" he was sliding and lost steering altogether, hit the breaks, over steered causing the tires to skip and slide more... the ground look wet IMO.

Yeah, you should unwind the steering wheel instead of trying to steer even further, but what I'm saying is, I don't think this can happen in a modern car with ABS when you brake while turning like that, even though ABS apparently only kicks in when you slam the brake pedal so hard in an emergency that you're about to lock up the wheels.

Well it depends on the driver... ABS doesn't really help an experienced driver, it's made to help the inexperienced driver. And ABS isn't a "be all end all" if one is sliding out of control ( like this driver is already at 0:05 ) it will help a break lock up but not a slide...

But yes, once they started to slide they should of steered into the slide not away and pumped their breaks ( if no ABS, pumping breaks with ABS is even worse then jumping on them ) to correct themselves...

Also, some ABS are more touchy then others from vehicle to vehicle... it's not only activated in "emergency stops" but can be set off because of higher speeds as well.

All things being equal... ABS doesn't replace good driving skills.

[Shodan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Triple G:

Oprindeligt skrevet af unturorum:

I don't think it would understeer with ABS though, even if you're not locking up the wheels. Look at that video in the original post, it definitely wasn't the kind of emergency braking that would lock up the wheels. This definitely doesn't happen when you have ABS, although you should still avoid doing it whenever possible. That's why I made this post. That wasn't even close to emergency braking and it still understeered badly and with ABS, you can do it much harder with absolutely nothing happening at all.

I don´t need to watch a video. That´s physics. It depends on the car, the speed and how sharp the turn is - and if You´re accelerating, braking or doing nothing - and on the street or ground and the tires. ABS or not doesn´t matter for it. It´s just about that the wheels keep spinning, so You´re still able to evade something while fully braking as most people lose their fine feeling in emergency situations and never trained those or how to solve it in another way. Usually You never need ABS if You´re driving like intended. You´ll also have to be prepared when the ABS fails - which happens twice to me.

I always drive like I don't have it anyway because I want to have the right muscle memory to avoid drama when electronics aren't good enough to go against laws of physics.

A couple of weeks ago, I saw one of those "cool" and "badass" morons in a black VW (of course) Arteon basically flooring it at a parking lot ahead of a very narrow 90 degree turn. He was going so fast that he had to brake hard and do the 90 degree turn at the same time. Not hard enough to lock up the wheels though. The car got through the turn perfectly. Did ABS save that reckless moron or would that be the case only if he braked harder enough for the wheels to start locking up?

That's what I'm talking about.

I'm asking because I don't know from experience since I don't drive like those morons, meaning I only ever brake in a straight line and I don't use the pedal like an on / off switch. So, I'm curious if that guy was saved by ABS or not. Again, that braking wasn't even close to locking up the wheels, but still very hard... and a 90 degree turn at the same time.

In other words, is sharp steering while braking hard (but not locking up the wheels kind of hard) possible without ABS or does ABS take care of that too, and not only emergency stops in which you slam the brake pedal as hard as possible?

[permanent name]

I watched it again and it looks like his steering wheel popped out of the wheel base and then ground against it while he steered it out of alignment, then back into place. This is another common failure because it was resting on a hydraulic pump with almost nothing to secure it in place. One with unpredictable hydraulics due to the lack of stabilizing valves.

It’s an interesting economic metaphor.