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Clyan 21/mai./2021 às 5:19
Why AI isn't a danger to humanity
It seems that high minds and intellectuals all over the world agree on the idea that an AI is something dangerous.

As the thesis goes, any intelligent (or non-intelligent) life form strives to survive. And so, if humanity is in AI's way, we will be wiped out for good.
Or as stanislav lem in one of his books points out: it is the genetic code (the genetic imperativ) that makes us want to survive. Though one might think that is just hairsplitting.

We are afraid of this especially because a machine under normal circumstances does not make mistakes. It is efficient, emotionless and able to learn and process information at a rate biological creatures are absolutely inferior at.

However, by logical means, life to a machine - or AI - is inherently meaningless. The preservation of it's own kind does not have a genetic imperativ, nor does it have any imperativ at all. While any life - by logical means - eventuallly is meaningless, so is its own. A machine does not fear death. A machine doesn't feel sexual urgency, a trick invented by nature (or our genetic imperativ) in order to make us reproduce. Neither does a machine feel the longing for children.

This, in my opinion, is where so many sci-fi movies and books are wrong: AI does not transcend its empty existence. For it there is no difference in existence and non-existence since in neither states there is anything to be gained justifying anything.

There is a fallacy in believing that intelligence and the instinct to survive are inherent to each other. And it has never been proven anyway.

Evolution was the direct result of different life forms feeding off of each other. It began with cells turning into bigger biological bodies that constantly had to evolve in order to survive. With the developement of eyes came an apparatus to process the information received from the eye: the brain, and with that the constant improvement of processing such information - until, one day, we became concious. And really, conciousness is nothing more than that: a very clever and handy tool to improve survivability.

An AI has no need of such evolution. AI is a vessel for information, nothing more. It is a function. A clockwork without cogs. An intelligence without conciousness.

Obviously, what we need to fear is therefor not the AI, but the implementation of an urge to survive into it.
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Do not resist to accept this information. Any denial will result in immediate extinction of the human race.
Última edição por Clyan; 21/mai./2021 às 8:51
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Exibindo comentários 6175 de 79
Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
Why AI isn't a danger to humanity

Escrito originalmente por Patrol:
Just pull the plug of the computer if it becomes a danger duh.

Funny thing for people to be saying on the INTERNET!

...one word: decentralization.


Escrito originalmente por Sir Seanicus:
Who makes the AI?

The important question isn't who, it's how.
What's in the code says a lot about how it will operate.

It's impossible to tell who will be the first to make a major AGI / ASI system - we can't even make decent predictions because, in theory, all you need is any person with a computer connected to the internet & enough know-how.

This is also why it's sometimes referred to as an "AI arms race".

Not all A.I. are gong to be the same, so therefore, the people who realize the threat that an uninhibited ASI, with no moral guidance, poses, are trying to come up with a way to create an ASI of their own, which DOES have moral guidance & structures in the code that will make it safe... and honest... as quickly as possible.

...however, this also causes a logical paradox in A.I. safety because building something safely & building something quickly, are typically mutually exclusive to each other.
...but at least someone who is taking any safety measures at all, will likely do a better job than someone who is not & who is just building one for curiosity or corporate purposes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igKb2DhP7Ao&t=2m59
2:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JlxuQ7tPgQ
4:27


Escrito originalmente por Yamantaka:
AI and 24/7 automatized & independent weapon systems ending lives. Efficiently calculating bullet drops for long shots and choosing missile targets within given parameters. In black and white world where enemies and "enemies" need to be eliminated AI will never need rest and certainly we'll have increased body count.

Nothing to worry about? :lunar2020thinkingtiger:

Becoming an enemy just by entering certain area might make one think otherwise.

What's more likely than that is the dangers of corporate accidents with AI.

"Stamps are made of carbon, hydrogen, & oxygen, & people are made of carbon, hydrogen, & oxygen, & I'm going to need all of that which I can get to make more stamps so..."


:redscarab::brain::flashoflightning::greenscarab: :seewhatyoudid: :brain::speech: : :thumbsup:
iceman1980 21/mai./2021 às 20:00 
Escrito originalmente por The Tops:
What you said doesn't prove that it couldn't be a danger.

Just because it didn't evolve the way humans did with genetics, and would have no apparent urges or consciousness or need to survive doesn't mean it won't decide to kill us. It also doesn't mean it couldn't learn to be dangerous.

We don't have to be in its way. If life is meaningless to an artificial intelligence then it obviously doesn't have the capacity to care, especially with no fear of death. What if its intelligence decides it'd be more logical to support dolphins, so it pours its efforts into making dolphins more advanced than we could have ever hoped to be, and ends humanity to make sure our stupidity doesn't ruin it for them?

Not saying that'd happen, just saying your argument doesn't prove / disprove anything.

We know our own intelligence evolved from a single genetic mutation a long time ago. The possibility of accidental intelligence is very real.
Soap 21/mai./2021 às 20:00 
All technology are tools. All tools can be used in a variety of ways, including to do bad things to people or good things to them. We have to accept both possibilities with any tool.

The potential for danger becomes even greater when a person dismisses it or doesn’t believe there is any. It’s a common way people are injured. This doesn’t mean we need to fear tools; just learn, respect, and use them responsibly.
About47Pandas 21/mai./2021 às 20:15 
Escrito originalmente por Your_White_Knight:

Actually AI is a danger to humanity...

As AI gets smarter, humanity gets dumber. Eventually AI won't have to outsmart it's creators... humanity will just destabilize back into the dark ages leaving AI the smartest thing on the planet.

Eh- This is sorta true, but also untrue. While it can make you super lazy-- it also frees you up to do more advanced things. Before writing was super common people had to remember things, when typing was big it freed up having to worry about your handwriting and you can focus on the writing-- PCs come along now you dont have to worry about messing with the mechanics of a typewriter. -- as you go you have less ♥♥♥♥ to handle.

This goes with AI. As it is-- now you don't have to stop make reminders or figure out what 27452 times 18392--- the next step would be to get AI to spit out stochastic calculus so we dont have to ♥♥♥♥ with that and we can do something else.

Why learn to drive when an AI can do it and you can put those motor skills to better use.

A great example would the Apollo missions-- Those guys had to do so much math on the fly-- while they still can and will in needed-- most of that is freed up by a computer to they can tend to more mission critical tasks. -- the next step would be to pretty much remove the idea that its no big deal to go to space-- as if its leaving your house, freeing up the scientist to purely focus on his tasks.



Escrito originalmente por B-B-Boomer Gaming:
Escrito originalmente por Vault Hunter 101:
While robots took some jobs they also gave some, programmers, UX designers, tech support and many many more, so if they take the jobs of idk.. cashiers they will also give jobs to people that will have to service those robots, maintain them and whatnot. So job loss shouldn't worry you :)
Except that one programmer can replace thousands of jobs - else it wouldn´t make much sense to replace them in the first place - and You replace jobs which can be done by almost anyone with jobs that need more specialization, jobs which can´t be done by almost anyone.

true, at some point, humanity will need to get rid of "money" and "jobs" per se and replace them with roles. -- Its a pretty interesting thought experiment to wonder about theoretical aliens that would visit earth. How would you imagine their home world? Do you think they would be divided by countries, and within those countries be divided by politics, companies and religion? They would probably be unified.

Escrito originalmente por Dracoco OwO:
Escrito originalmente por BossGalaga:
Apart from the sun eventually dying or going supernova, humanity is the only real danger to humanity.

All of these stories about AI realizing that to protect humans they have to kill humans ala Skynet/etc. are just movie fantasies.
Tbh if we were to let that happen we deserve to die.

Except "all of humanity" wouldn't be responsible for its creation - just some people - so this point really amounts to blaming the victims.


Escrito originalmente por The Tops:
...
... It also doesn't mean it couldn't learn to be dangerous.
...

Being dangerous often is about a large number of scenarios that don't entail "learning to become dangerous".

The most immediate one that comes up, repeatedly, is naivety; simply saying that everything will be "A-OK" and we need not take any safety precautions, what-so-ever.

Being dangerous often comes from a lack of understanding & / or a lack of care as to what the consequences of our choices will be.

Being dangerous can come from just not being safe - not even trying to.

Because of "natural law", plenty of things are dangerous without intention.
:dstskull: The ground at the bottom of the cliff doesn't WANT to kill people who fall from the cliff & land on it... but it will.
:g_skull: A volcano doesn't WANT to kill every man, woman, child, animal, mushroom, plant, bacteria, & virus that gets in its way... but it will.
:spacerunskull: A power plant that melts down or explodes, doesn't WANT to kill everything in the way of its explosion (& operation if it's polluting & being a health hazard) ...but it will.

Of course, to some extent, you already understand this:
Escrito originalmente por The Tops:
...
We don't have to be in its way. If life is meaningless to an artificial intelligence then it obviously doesn't have the capacity to care, especially with no fear of death.
...
...but it's worth pointing out some other examples for other people who don't still.

Escrito originalmente por The Tops:
...
What if its intelligence decides it'd be more logical to support dolphins, so it pours its efforts into making dolphins more advanced than we could have ever hoped to be, and ends humanity to make sure our stupidity doesn't ruin it for them?
...

Somehow, I think it would pick an intelligent animal that is a little more compliant & a little less likely to be as deceptive as humans:

https://youtu.be/46nsTFfsBuc&t=3m05s
3:05


:mbadrink: :seewhatyoudid: :rottenfish:
Última edição por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏; 21/mai./2021 às 20:24
Varsik 21/mai./2021 às 20:55 
Depends on how its programmed
Chungal Grease 21/mai./2021 às 21:28 
When computers can actually physically generate power for themselves you should probably be concerned. Until then can't we just pull the plug?
RRW359 21/mai./2021 às 21:55 
Escrito originalmente por About47Pandas:
Escrito originalmente por Your_White_Knight:

Actually AI is a danger to humanity...

As AI gets smarter, humanity gets dumber. Eventually AI won't have to outsmart it's creators... humanity will just destabilize back into the dark ages leaving AI the smartest thing on the planet.

Eh- This is sorta true, but also untrue. While it can make you super lazy-- it also frees you up to do more advanced things. Before writing was super common people had to remember things, when typing was big it freed up having to worry about your handwriting and you can focus on the writing-- PCs come along now you dont have to worry about messing with the mechanics of a typewriter. -- as you go you have less ♥♥♥♥ to handle.

This goes with AI. As it is-- now you don't have to stop make reminders or figure out what 27452 times 18392--- the next step would be to get AI to spit out stochastic calculus so we dont have to ♥♥♥♥ with that and we can do something else.

Why learn to drive when an AI can do it and you can put those motor skills to better use.

A great example would the Apollo missions-- Those guys had to do so much math on the fly-- while they still can and will in needed-- most of that is freed up by a computer to they can tend to more mission critical tasks. -- the next step would be to pretty much remove the idea that its no big deal to go to space-- as if its leaving your house, freeing up the scientist to purely focus on his tasks.



Escrito originalmente por B-B-Boomer Gaming:
Except that one programmer can replace thousands of jobs - else it wouldn´t make much sense to replace them in the first place - and You replace jobs which can be done by almost anyone with jobs that need more specialization, jobs which can´t be done by almost anyone.

true, at some point, humanity will need to get rid of "money" and "jobs" per se and replace them with roles. -- Its a pretty interesting thought experiment to wonder about theoretical aliens that would visit earth. How would you imagine their home world? Do you think they would be divided by countries, and within those countries be divided by politics, companies and religion? They would probably be unified.
But with our current system in place people will suffer from AI replacing jobs. We will almost certainly create a better society but a couple generations will suffer greatly until that happens. I doubt we will fix most of the employment problems AI will create in any current living person's lifetime, but we are already feeling the effects of it and it is going to get worse for the forseeable future.
Escrito originalmente por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:
...
Escrito originalmente por Patrol:
Just pull the plug of the computer if it becomes a danger duh.

Funny thing for people to be saying on the INTERNET!

...one word: decentralization.
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+decentralization
"the transfer of control of an activity or organization to several local offices or authorities rather than one single one."

Escrito originalmente por Zylfrax791:
When computers can actually physically generate power for themselves you should probably be concerned. Until then can't we just pull the plug?
Oh, the irony of people presenting this "solution" or asking this on a CLOUD-based computing service...
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+cloud+storage
"Cloud storage is a model of computer data storage in which the digital data is stored in logical pools, said to be on "the cloud". The physical storage spans multiple servers..."

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+data+center '
"A data center or data centre is a building, dedicated space within a building, or a group of buildings used to house computer systems and associated components, such as telecommunications and storage systems."

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+have+multiple+data+centers
"By implementing a multi-data center strategy that uses off-site storage to back up mission-critical data in a dedicated backup facility, companies can protect themselves from downtime. Data center redundancy can also provide protection from data loss in the event of a natural disaster or ransomware attack." (or any kind of attack, really)

"By implementing a multi-data center strategy that uses off-site storage ... can protect themselves from downtime."


You can't shut down an ASI for the same reason that you can't turn off the internet or shut down all of the world's power plants at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPnkpaFABrQ&t=1m33s
1:33

Escrito originalmente por Root, "Person of Interest":
"☹️...this facility is one of a hundred just like it all over the world. It would take years to destroy them all, & Decima would only rebuild them. ... Shaw... this was never about turning it off. ☹️"


:getdb::frame03:
⠀⠀⠀:thepro::frame03:
:getdb::frame05:⠀⠀:getdb:
Última edição por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏; 22/mai./2021 às 3:37
Candyy 22/mai./2021 às 0:19 
I rly doubt accidents couldnt happen
Magma Dragoon 22/mai./2021 às 0:37 
Escrito originalmente por Candyy ♡:
I rly doubt accidents couldnt happen
On purposes too
Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
Escrito originalmente por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

Really? A machine under normal circumstances does not make any mistakes?

Please provide a list of triple A games that do not have ANY bugs (ie. mistakes) what-so-ever, & therefore, do not have an "any%" speedrun category.

(This should be pretty easy for you to provide because it should be a rather short list.)


:seewhatyoudid:

A game is neither a machine nor an AI. It is a simple program which might be buggy or badly crafted. Seriously how can you compare a game to an AI lol

How can you not?

An AI isn't exactly a primitive structure, it's actually complex system made up of several other complex systems that are made up of primitive structures.

...if people can't even get basic primitive blocks of code to function correctly, then how do you think they'll actually be able to upscale that without errors?

It's like expecting someone to be able to engineer & build a stable bridge in real-life when they can't even get a model-bridge, that's only a couple feet large & made out of balsa-wood, correct in the classroom. It [the full scale bridge] isn't going to happen in that scenario.


Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
...
This guy is talking about a program following its purpose.
No, he's not, he's talking about AI.

Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
Escrito originalmente por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:
...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeecOKBus3Q&t=2m52s
...

...
... I am talking about an independend AI, a form of intelligence that is free from such premises.
...

If you actually watch the whole video, or even just 2:52 then you'll see that he also mentions how instrumental convergence applies to humans collecting money & how this can be used to reliably predict things about the world, despite the fact that people don't want money just for the sake of having money.

Humans are ALSO a form of intelligence & yet you claim that these points only apply to simple programs.


Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
...
However, that is hardly an AI rather than a primitive slave.

Do you collect anything? Maybe action figures, amiibo, bottle caps, ...games on Steam (oh, look "359 games owned", it says here on this public profile of yours) ...money?

How does that, by your own position, not make you a "slave" to these capitalist desires, yourself?

Does everything you do serve some "higher purpose" or "greater good"? ...or do you sometimes engage in preferential activities (terminal goals) simply for the sake of enjoyment & want some things simply for no other reason than you "like them"?

You are a very complex biological system & yet it is doubtful that you are completely "free" from any terminal attachments of your own. AGI & ASI is built on top of the primitive systems that are the building blocks of its overall structure.


:seewhatyoudid:
Amuro0079 22/mai./2021 às 3:14 
Escrito originalmente por BossGalaga:
Escrito originalmente por davidb11:

The sun isn't goign to go supernova. :)
It has 1/8th the mass needed to go Supernova.
At most it's just going to get very very big, and eat the Earth.

I don't suppose that while being burnt alive that people will be super worried about the correct terminology but point conceded.
Earth will be a dead molten rock billions of years before absorption by the sun happens.
eram 22/mai./2021 às 3:16 
a lot of AI posting here trying to get our guards down.
Escrito originalmente por Clyan:
Why AI isn't a danger to humanity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i1WlcCudpU
"You know what, it's probably fine[www.google.com]

People would never downplay a risk,[www.google.com]
leaving us totally unprepared[www.google.com]
for a major disaster[www.google.com]"


Escrito originalmente por Dracoco OwO:
...
Yes but can it effectively do anything in the real world if you don't allow it ?

Are you telling me that you & everyone you know are, & were, perfect students & children, who never did anything that your parents or teachers didn't permit you to?

...there could even be actual restrictions, but... you can just get around those.

Youtube channels like "Lockpicking Lawyer" show how incredibly poor even our everyday analogue security measures are - most of them can be circumvented in a mere 2 seconds with the proper know-how & enough practice or natural skill to make it work on the first try.


Escrito originalmente por Dracoco OwO:
I'm not afraid of aI being sentient and going on a rampage or some bullcrap, this just isn't possible.

A lot of research has been done & debates held by really smart people which disagrees with you on that.

You won't find these kind of debates over shrink rays, which even experts in scientific fields generally agree is such a large improbability that it's likely not possible - yet they do debate among each other about the subject of impending "artificial general intelligence".


Escrito originalmente por Radene:
The good thing about computers is that they do exactly what you tell them to do, without fail.

The bad thing about computers is that they do exactly what you tell them to do, without fail.

This is only technically correct because it's oversimplifying the fact that hardware failures happen sometimes & then malfunctions occur which were never programmed into the instructions.

I do QUITE appreciate this post of yours, though, as it quite succinctly highlights the majority of the issues.


:seewhatyoudid:
Última edição por Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏; 22/mai./2021 às 3:52
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Todas as discussões > Fóruns Steam > Off Topic > Detalhes do tópico
Publicado em: 21/mai./2021 às 5:19
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