Tutte le discussioni > Discussioni di Steam > Off Topic > Dettagli della discussione
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Centurion 27 apr 2019, ore 4:24
Game as service is fraud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw

Its a very long video. So if you care about that topic be prepared to listen for 1h.
If you dont care, feel free to skip and ignore this thread.
Ultima modifica da Centurion; 27 apr 2019, ore 4:41
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Clicca qui per visualizzare il messaggio.
Messaggio originale di Turbo Nozomix:
Messaggio originale di Toast:
Okay, sounds interesting. I will check it out. I hate Jim Sterling though. He's an insufferable prat.

edit: Oh wow, this guy really needs to get to the point. This is barely digestible and it is an hour and 15 minutes long. It seems like he doesn't know how to make this kind of content, or even how to communicate his thoughts in a clear and concise manner. It's just him rambling. I guess that's to be expected from the guy who makes Freeman's Mind. This is terrible, and I don't know if I will even bother trying to watch the whole thing.

Messaggio originale di SMIFFY:
♥♥♥♥ me. Toast is right, this guy needs to get to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point everything he's trying to explain is needlessly drawn out with filler.


Ross adds some humourous tangents between his points, but he generally doesn't waste much time covering the important stuff. It's a large topic with a history of loads of disinformation about it, and a lot of people simply have never held a conceptualization of what the subject is, so there's a lot of ground that he has to cover.

Personally I really appreciate his humour that he puts into things, so I actually like that stuff.


The video is done in sections. Let's see if I can remember what they are and find them in the video. Be aware that this might not be entirely accurate in description or of the true start of a section:


0:00 - What is "Games as a service"?

9:55 - Why games are legally goods and you own them, and what that means for your rights

17:32 - Ross is against killing games, "Games as a service"'s role in killing games, and how it violates game ownership rights

24:29 - planned obsolescence and examples of lawsuits against printer companies, how "games as a service" interferes with game ownership

31:54 - how "games as a service" doesn't fit the definition of any actual services

39:30 - what can and should be done by companies when their online-based game reaches EoL

42:18 - Ross' reflection on the information he just talked about, and what his interest in the topic is motivated by

47:30 - end of the presentation of the main case. Now, going into overtime, talking about the next section where he aims to preempt a lot of challenges to what he's said

48:22 - start of Ross' rebuttals to what he anticipates to be the major arguments against what he's proposed

rebuttal to: "Games as a service" is legal because you agree to the terms stated in the EULA

50:26 - rebuttal to: Buying a game entitles you to the client software, you are not entitled to the server software.

52:07 - rebuttal to: What you're proposing would require businesses to support their games forever. That's unreasonable.

52:40 - rebuttal to: If games as a service has to be treated as goods it will hurt creativity of developers and restrain them.


Ross gives his rebuttals to various anticipated challenges until 1:09:04. There's lots of good information in his responses, but I'm not going to add timestamps to all of them because there's a lot of them.


1:09:04 - criticisms of the excuses

1:10:00 - overview of next steps, calls for community and legal help, contact links, resources

1:11:59 - Ross says the games industry has been declaring a war on ownership for years and that consumers have been asleep at the wheel, talks more about next steps
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Plaid 28 apr 2019, ore 20:22 
Messaggio originale di BossGalaga:
I'll take Steam over a neverending mountain of scratched discs and game booklets/cases with the serial key on them any day. You know how many games Valve has scammed me out of? NONE.

I think it's been pointed out already, but given the position of the people in the "anti-game service" camp, according to your arguments Valve would have no responsibility but to let you download a game once and only once and if you "lost" your download then you would be obligated to purchase another copy of the same game.
And the service would lose a lot of value were that the case.
Ultima modifica da Plaid; 28 apr 2019, ore 20:23
#61
Vince ✟ 28 apr 2019, ore 20:32 
Skipped and ignored. (As per OP instruction) Fight the good fight for us gents!
Ultima modifica da Vince ✟; 28 apr 2019, ore 20:34
#62
talemore 28 apr 2019, ore 20:41 
If you live in a bottle and you really belive in this haven't heard about catch 22.
#63
BossGalaga 28 apr 2019, ore 20:54 
Messaggio originale di Plaid:
Messaggio originale di BossGalaga:
I'll take Steam over a neverending mountain of scratched discs and game booklets/cases with the serial key on them any day. You know how many games Valve has scammed me out of? NONE.

I think it's been pointed out already, but given the position of the people in the "anti-game service" camp, according to your arguments Valve would have no responsibility but to let you download a game once and only once and if you "lost" your download then you would be obligated to purchase another copy of the same game.

And the service would lose a lot of value were that the case.

Well, I think some people are jumping to some off the wall conclusions. Steam itself wouldn't fall under Ross' definition of games as a service because it doesn't fit his definition of "online only" but some people like SPG in this thread are equating it to that. Steam itself can be launched offline. In fact, there are many Steam games that you can play directly from their game folder without even launching Steam.

So before separating people into pro-game service and anti-game service camps, I think we would need for those people to specify whether they actually believe that Steam itself is one of these evil games as a service as Ross describes, but again according to his definition, it is not.

I can vouch for that because I've been deployed around the world, in many places where he had little or no internet, and I was still able to bring my Steam games with me and play them even without internet, although I didn't always have a lot of time to.
Ultima modifica da BossGalaga; 28 apr 2019, ore 20:54
#64
Turbo Nozomix 28 apr 2019, ore 21:12 
Messaggio originale di BossGalaga:
I'll take Steam over a neverending mountain of scratched discs and game booklets/cases with the serial key on them any day. You know how many games Valve has scammed me out of? NONE.

I think it's been pointed out already, but given the position of the people in the "anti-game service" camp, according to your arguments Valve would have no responsibility but to let you download a game once and only once and if you "lost" your download then you would be obligated to purchase another copy of the same game.

edit: just to clarify, I don't believe that Steam qualifies as a "gaas" as Ross defines it in his video.

Ross' video actually isn't about Steam or about digital game retail and delivery services. And I think Steam and all other digital delivery services aren't mentioned in his video at all.

Ross defined "games as a service" as a game design style that makes ongoing support of the game by the developer essential for the game to be playable.

I also prefer using Steam to relying on physical mediums. I bet that Ross does, too.

Ross' video is about the practices of game developers and publishers who condition their games on online servers to play, and then shut down without leaving any recourse for people who bought those games to access their owned products. The video isn't about services that deliver games through online means to install them.

Valve did say early on in Steam's existence that if they ever shut down they would do something to unlock people's games so they could play them without Steam.
Ultima modifica da Turbo Nozomix; 28 apr 2019, ore 21:35
#65
BossGalaga 28 apr 2019, ore 21:25 
Messaggio originale di Turbo Nozomix:
Messaggio originale di BossGalaga:
I'll take Steam over a neverending mountain of scratched discs and game booklets/cases with the serial key on them any day. You know how many games Valve has scammed me out of? NONE.

I think it's been pointed out already, but given the position of the people in the "anti-game service" camp, according to your arguments Valve would have no responsibility but to let you download a game once and only once and if you "lost" your download then you would be obligated to purchase another copy of the same game.

edit: just to clarify, I don't believe that Steam qualifies as a "gaas" as Ross defines it in his video.

Ross' video actually isn't about Steam or about digital game retail and delivery services. And I think Steam and all other digital delivery services aren't mentioned in his video at all.

Ross defined "games as a service" as a game design style that makes ongoing support of the game essential for the game to be playable.

I also prefer using Steam to relying on physical mediums. I bet that Ross does, too.

Ross' video is about the practices of game developers and publishers who condition their games on online servers to play, and then shut down without leaving any recourse for people who bought those games to access their owned products. The video isn't about services that deliver games through online means to install them.

Valve did say early on in Steam's existence that if they ever shut down they would do something to unlock people's games so they could play them without Steam.

That's my bad, I should have just replied directly to SPG's comment (post #42) since that's what I was really remarking on.

Really, for Steam to go out of business, I think Washington state would have to be literally blown up, and even then, they probably have some sort of redundancy in their system in case of catastrophic failure. Until humankind reaches some new paradigm for entertainment services, where games and movies, etc. are streamed directly into your eyeballs/brain, I don't see Steam failing and taking all of your games with it.
#66
Glock17 29 apr 2019, ore 5:24 
Legal question
Need to know about whether or not valve will do anything about safeguarding customer's property and information in the event of a loss or unforseen economic disaster that can force a company or corporation to close.

Ive heard that there is a grey area for ownership of steam accounts and I want to know about safegarding and insuring my account for the later future.
#67
REZ₪NIK 29 apr 2019, ore 5:29 
Pretty sure sure it's all there in t&c's, if you really need to know. Have you read them? :laverne:
#68
AmsterdamHeavy 29 apr 2019, ore 5:31 
https://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg
#69
Glock17 29 apr 2019, ore 5:33 
Messaggio originale di REZ₪NIK:
Pretty sure sure it's all there in t&c's, if you really need to know. Have you read them? :laverne:
doesnt say anything about whether or not you can make the accounts insured or transferable.

Just says about not suing the company if somehow the accounr gets "deleted" or someone "pulls the plug" on your credentials.

Im gonna go ahead and be nice towards your ill-fated comment that lacks any substance and lacks logic.

So try again and come up with a real answer instead of copying and pasting quick comments just so you can get brownie points, rofl.
#70
Glock17 29 apr 2019, ore 5:34 
Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:
https://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg
what kind of measures? How will they do so, in the legal sense and honor the guidelines and procedures of the service.

And what about the goods purchased on accounts?
#71
REZ₪NIK 29 apr 2019, ore 5:38 
Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:
https://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg
:installgen2:
#72
REZ₪NIK 29 apr 2019, ore 5:41 
If your talking about legal recourse if steam does go down and you do lose access to averything somethings or whatever well good luck to you matey
#73
Glock17 29 apr 2019, ore 5:43 
Messaggio originale di REZ₪NIK:
If your talking about legal recourse if steam does go down and you do lose access to averything somethings or whatever well good luck to you matey
im not one here to call a fool out for their leanings. But I hope you are not advocating the questionable practices of a company and expecting anyone to believe you're right and think its actually legally "okay" for companies to operate in this manner.
#74
AmsterdamHeavy 29 apr 2019, ore 5:47 
Messaggio originale di Yung-Ayileah:
Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:
https://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg
what kind of measures? How will they do so, in the legal sense and honor the guidelines and procedures of the service.

And what about the goods purchased on accounts?

Theres was a comment years ago that basically, what Valve would do, is remove the "Steam as DRM" requirement.

You would still need to download and archive all of the game files though, so for some of us at this point that might be a big problem, even with the cost per TB of drive space being as low as it is today, but there will be an option.

Personally, I trust Valve to follow through on this, if it were to ever happen. There is a lot of room in the business model, and even other buyers though before that happens.


BUT: If they did NOTHING, it would still be according the the SSA. I just choose to believe that Valve would not screw literally millions of people in that way.
Ultima modifica da AmsterdamHeavy; 29 apr 2019, ore 5:48
#75
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