The effectivity of Shotokan Karate.

[HeroicHeathen]

Hi,

Big topic in a few sentences:

I practiced many martial arts and noticed that Shotokan Karate seems to be the most unrealistic out of all of them as the majority of Dojos lack decent Kumite and Bunkai.

Especially since the Karate reform in 1930s.

Has anyone here ever had to use Karate for self defence? Did it work? What was your experience?

I am planning on starting again but my experience with it is rather negative, coming from a more full contact background I always felt that Karate is 80% a waste of time IF you are looking for self defence and being able to win a fight. Unless you train Kyokushin Karate on Okinawa x))

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису tausoldier:

if your instructors wanted you to be really good at fighting they'd explain leverage, force dispersion, angular momentum, optimized movement strategies, a list of fatal points, weak joints and small bones, nerve clusters, and how to hold your hand properly while taking advantage of all of this. it's ♥♥♥♥ you could learn in a couple of weeks at basic training if they were serious about it.

they don't teach you that because it's not really about combat, and freely spreading that kind of knowledge around is only going to benefit antisocial jerks who just want to hurt people for fun and profit. to be frank, almost everything you might learn in a military training course you probably already know by now, and that's already combat. you don't need to study 20 years to do that. you don't need to take on the 'martial artist' identity for that, and infact that pretension is just going to get in the way of taking your enemy seriously. you're always going to be thinking in the back of your mind 'am I a great martial artist? is this opponent strong? can I take them?' or some crap like that, rather than how to beat them properly.

forcing someone to talk or listen to you while all they do is throw hands? that's almost impossible, but the more you hit eachother and the more you get caught up in eachothers rhythms the harder it will become for either of you to listen and also the more impossible it will become for either of you to ignore eachother.

if all you do is instantly beat them up, have they actually learned not to attack people or have they only learned not to attack you? have you resolved the isssue, or have you shuffed it off onto someone further down the line who isn't going to be as experienced as you are? are you actually good enough to beat them demonstratively and "teach them a lesson," or is it all you can do just to kao loi and backfist them when they're off-balance?

do you control the fight, or does the fight control you? answering that question begins with philosophical nonsense the same way throwing a punch begins with pushups and horse stance. it's silly. martial arts are silly. again, if you take the estoteric portions away from a martial art you don't have a martial art anymore. it's just punching people. "fist style" martial arts.

you seem to think martial arts = punching people, but you say yourself most of these schools don't seem particularly concerned about actually punching people for some reason. it's as if the concept of a martial art were secondary to the punching and the kicking somehow, like they were all secretly some kind of Fight Club-type organization where their personal ideals eclipsed the face of what they were providing.

you don't seem to like the social club, so I would suggest you stop associating yourself with schools rather than trying to tear the schools down.

Nobody here is talking about military, Karate is a combat system as it was developed for war, for killing. I dont see why I keep need to repeating that.

You have completely failed the point of this topic and you also dont seem to have ever practiced any more contact martial arts.
The fact that you claim I think that martial arts is punching people indicates that you have understood absolutely nothing of what I have explained.
You are one of these individuals that call people brawlers, violent and streetfighters as soon as they dont heavily focus on the philosophic part of martial arts.
Again, martial arts is not all about philosophy and morals, its intended to safe your life in a situation in which you have to fight.

You write down a lot of philosophical BS that you seem to copy from old Bruce Lee movies (RIP B.Lee) but you forget the core of a martial art and the actual purpose of it.

But thanks for completely twisting around what I have said trying to make me look like some kind of brainless meathead who only wants to exploit martial arts for punching ppl, lol, a typical move of people who can't fight for ♥♥♥♥♥ and have no balls to actually practice real martial arts systems.

Difference between me and you is that I live martial arts. From morning to evening and this is why I do not neglect tough, contact workout as this is what flips the coin in a real defence scenario, I am talking from experience. Unfortunately.


Start reading people's posts properly and thoroughly before making such accusations.

And also keep in mind, I am not trying to tear schools down, I am trying to point something out that could get martial arts students in real danger as they practice many years and do not know how to actually defend themselves in a physical defence scenario.

But hey, as long as you are happy and feel safe by throwing punches in the air and imaging you can talk down and avoid every abuser in life, go for it, might practice Yoga then instead, at least it keeps you healthy to the limit!

Цитата допису Uncle Rico's Sweet 'stache:

The not so well kept secret is that some disciplines are made for show and some are made for go. Know the difference and you'll find what you're looking for.

My problem with Aikido is not that the techniques do not physically work, they do work, my problem is that they are not appliable to an aggressive heavy puncher that has had a few street fights on his back already. Aikido might help you if someone tries to grab your balls in an elevator but not against a vicious , violent and brutally aggressive attacker.

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису Samwise:

Цитата допису omg:

thanks for the advice, time to go learn aikido

(this post of mine is a dumb and bad joke, do not touch)

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduMXDd7sC9MiofK/giphy.gif

Stick to the topic, this is not about Aikido, this is about how useless karate is.

[Samwise]

Цитата допису Skjörn:

Цитата допису Samwise:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduMXDd7sC9MiofK/giphy.gif

Stick to the topic, this is not about Aikido, this is about how useless karate is.

Silence mortal

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису Samwise:

Цитата допису Skjörn:

Stick to the topic, this is not about Aikido, this is about how useless karate is.

Silence mortal

[a]

"ya okay you seem to have a hard time holding a conversation, so you must be a meathead."

you're the one using this weird logic, not me.

and I keep telling you, historically martial arts systems are points of cultural unity before they are fighting systems. you can't have self-defense without a 'self' to defend, and even bushido is conceptualized around submitting that 'cultivated self' to a higher power for their use.

karate was not made for war, come on. it was literally made for an occupied society to defend themselves from drunk abusers; they lost the war already, but the occupiers liked their spirit so much they co-opted their resistance art into their own society and proceeded to have a warrior class practice it in their spare time. where's the warfare in that, by association? are painting and poetry made for warfare now, because budo feel feisty when they look at it?

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису tausoldier:

"ya okay you seem to have a hard time holding a conversation, so you must be a meathead."

you're the one using this weird logic, not me.

and I keep telling you, historically martial arts systems are points of cultural unity before they are fighting systems. you can't have self-defense without a 'self' to defend, and even bushido is conceptualized around submitting that 'cultivated self' to a higher power for their use.

karate was not made for war, come on. it was literally made for an occupied society to defend themselves from drunk abusers; they lost the war already, but the occupiers liked their spirit so much they co-opted their resistance art into their own society and proceeded to have a warrior class practice it in their spare time. where's the warfare in that, by association? are painting and poetry made for warfare now, because budo feel feisty when they look at it?

Hey, why don't you take your smartphone and a good friend with you and walk in to an MMA club or a Muay Thai club and challenge their most mediocre fighter, then apply your Karate. Make sure you record vertically and share it with us.

You are going way too deep and deep in a wrong direction, you are literally over-philosophing things here. I have studied martial arts longer than you have probably been on this planet and this is not how it works really...


But as you dont read my replies and literally twist everything around I say ( literally every single thing ) I lost fun discussing with you, it was interesting to begin with but now its just a matter of me having to repeat myself because you ignore solid facts and points I have made and also you ignore what this topic actually is about just to get rid of your esoteric dispersion.

GL

[a]

ugh, back at you.

I don't even practice kara-te.

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису tausoldier:

ugh, back at you.

I don't even practice kara-te.

LMAO.

Then I strongly doubt you are qualified to even participate in this entire discussion nor have you understood the whole point of this thread.

You are one confused individual.

[a]

Цитата допису Skjörn:

Then I strongly doubt you are qualified to even participate in this entire discussion nor have you understood the whole point of this thread.

uhh, alright. let me try.

"this style sucks, it isn't teach me Real Martial Arts. if I tried to punch someone with this I would lose."

yeah you're right I just reviewed a couple of karate stances. it was a conceptually interesting way to tell me how to cover my nervous bundles, but the specific stance left my hip bone wide open. good thing the only art I practiced never told me how anything worked, or I might have confused form and function.

bruce lee is very critical of pretty much all standardized stances across all arts, preferring his own stance which is very powerful, flexible, fast, and above all defensively balanced. it's also extremely tiring, and when he was feuding with the chinese masters in SF one of them eventually showed up and challenged him to a fight that lasted an hour and a half, which he lost.

after the fact, he is quoted as saying "I let the fight go on too long." maybe he just didn't prepare for a longer fight? I have questions about whether his training regimen was unbalanced and may have led to his back problems, or whether his overall attitude made him too stressed and overtaxed his tendons and nervous system. he was killed by the medical establishment, but he wouldn't have needed analgesics if he pushed himself a little bit less.

how is martial arts, if you 'live it,' not about life?

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису tausoldier:

Цитата допису Skjörn:

Then I strongly doubt you are qualified to even participate in this entire discussion nor have you understood the whole point of this thread.

uhh, alright. let me try.

"this style sucks, it isn't teach me Real Martial Arts. if I tried to punch someone with this I would lose."

yeah you're right I just reviewed a couple of karate stances. it was a conceptually interesting way to tell me how to cover my nervous bundles, but the specific stance left my hip bone wide open. good thing the only art I practiced never told me how anything worked, or I might have confused form and function.

bruce lee is very critical of pretty much all standardized stances across all arts, preferring his own stance which is very powerful, flexible, fast, and above all defensively balanced. it's also extremely tiring, and when he was feuding with the chinese masters in SF one of them eventually showed up and challenged him to a fight that lasted an hour and a half, which he lost.

after the fact, he is quoted as saying "I let the fight go on too long." maybe he just didn't prepare for a longer fight? I have questions about whether his training regimen was unbalanced and may have led to his back problems, or whether his overall attitude made him too stressed and overtaxed his tendons and nervous system. he was killed by the medical establishment, but he wouldn't have needed analgesics if he pushed himself a little bit less.

how is martial arts, if you 'live it,' not about life?

Shotokan Karate stances as you use them in training are not used like this in a real fight nor are they supposed to. Low stances are mainly for strengthning your muscles, ligaments and protecting your joints when doing powerful movements.

Every Karateka knows that this is not the fighting stance you would use in a fight and every Kumite fight you can watch on YouTube will also show you taht this is not used.

Proves that you have no clue what you are talking about and considering this is the only art you ever practiced makes everything you say completely invalid in the first place as you personally can't even compare it to other systems while I can.

Bruce Lee developed a few very decent things but technically he has absolutely no fight history and his shadow is just his movies and his reputation, which he has not gained by fighting different styles and martial artists. I doubt he is the best example.



And your last paragraph, what does this have to do with anything?



But to be a good guy and break down for you why Karate is useless, here a few shots:

- Karate self-defence techniques are always practiced through Kata and Bunkai, in this the opponent strikes controlled punches at you and usually does NOT pull his hand nor leg back giving you enough time to apply a series of counter attacks, let it be blocks, and kicks or strikes to the solar plexus. This is unrealistic as in a real fight nobody stands in a kibadachi and waiting for you to apply your silly blocks . People throw a chain of punches at you and will try to get through your cover, which is non existent in Karate training.

- Karate blocks dont work as they completely reveal you and allow an opponent to knock you out, Karate blocks only work in theory. I have tested it with gear and in full speed many many times, it does NOT work and everyone who has been in a fight once in their life knows this, its a logical result.

- Karate training is build on 60% Kata 35% Bunkai and only 5% Kumite ( This goes for Karate we have access to here in Europe and the U.S ).

- Karate except Kyokushin does not train in Full-Contact, most train either Semi contact or no contact at all, this leaves you completely frozen when you catch your first slap in a street fight and self defence scenario as you are not used to getting hurt and not used to getting stunned by strikes, which then would lead to your destruction. Kyokushin is not used to getting hit in the face repeatedly, which would also happen in a real life scenario.

- Martial arts is about life as you need to work out additionally, adapt your diet and train often enough to be a decent fighter, unless you are happy with being mediocre. Philosophy & Moral teachings are not needed to make you a better fighter, in fact, reality looks different.... Most bad guys who are roaming night clubs, streets and pubs looking for a fight are involved in fights every weekend and wont get a tunnel vision when fighting nor will they be surprised by anything as they live and practice their fighting with real life opponents in real life pressure scenarios, they will always be superior to you the victim... UNLESS you practiced tough full contact combat sports a.k.a blood sports such as Muay Thai or Boxing or MMA.

- There are thousands of thousands of videos on YouTube and other platforms that show Karateka getting their a$$es handed over to them by mediocre MT fighters, Kickboxers, MMA fighters.

- There is only one video that shows an actual Karate jab being used in a street fight, which was a lucky hit against some drunk pimp while MT and MMA and other contact sports are regulary seen in videos that involve real life fighting and self defence scenarios.



Now to cut this short, you can agree with or disagree with me as much as you want to, we are talking about SELF DEFENCE here, physical self defence, a situation in which you are FORCED to use physical violence against someone who wants to harm you and in THIS situation, Karate is NOT an advantage as it gives you confidence, false confidence that will get you knocked out in such a scenario or worse.
In such a scenario something like Krav Maga, Muay Thai, MMA or Boxing is needed to get you out of this situation without the least amount of damage.

Conclusion: Karate is completely useless as a martial art but might be useful as a spiritual, esoteric gymnastic system for old people and people who would like to wear a black belt, call them martial artist once in a while but don't want to prove enough balls to learn actual fighting, self defence and practice REAL martial arts.


This is my final message...

Please dont keep replying with responses that either don't even discuss anything of what I have said or arguments that are based on your very very limited knowledge of the huge world of martial arts and fighting systems. You are speaking to someone who has practiced many systems during the last decades, to someone who holds several gold medals in several martial arts I gathered in regional and even national levels.
On top of that I give self defence classes myself and am a qualified and certified self defence instructor for the Alpha self defence system.

Now...go..go with god and enjoy your esoteric spiritual path of throwing magical fireballs at your opponents Son Goku x))))

[Γαῖα]

There is the art and then there is the practicability of it.
Shotokan is an old art that most who learnt it, never adapted it for the street. While its amongst the most powerful of all karate its far to ridged and leaves itself open to counters other arts have created.
With this said though it takes a very long time to really understand and implement technic from any art as its very far from learning a dance of arms and legs.

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису Γαῖα:

There is the art and then there is the practicability of it.
Shotokan is an old art that most who learnt it, never adapted it for the street. While its amongst the most powerful of all karate its far to ridged and leaves itself open to counters other arts have created.
With this said though it takes a very long time to really understand and implement technic from any art as its very far from learning a dance of arms and legs.

This is true.

But my point was that even after learning Shotokan Karate for lets say 10 years, you will get dropped by a Muay-Thai fighter who might only train MT since 1 years or less as MT throws you right in to the happening.

I also would like to point out that Shotokan Karate is not old at all. Shotokan Karate we know is a sport and health Karate, it has been reformed in the 30s and has absolutely nothing to do with the old Karate other than a few roots leading from there.

The only Karate that can compete with other martial arts and combat sports is Kyokushin Karate and Kudo ( if Kudo can even be considered Karate ).

Other than that.... Not sure what the previous dude did not understand about that. You seem to understand it straight away.

[a]

im a ninja master, feel my real ultimate power:

*does nothing*

ok bye keyboard warrior.

[Z i o ⚡]

Цитата допису chiefputsilao✖️ping:

a college classmate of mine knows karate.
back in the days when we were still in college, he was robbed at gun point while going to school.

gun vs fist

the gun won overwhelmingly.

Yeah but even if he had his own gun he still could have been robbed if he was held at gunpoint.

[HeroicHeathen]

Цитата допису tausoldier:

im a ninja master, feel my real ultimate power:

*does nothing*

ok bye keyboard warrior.

ROFL.

Calling someone a keyboard warrior who has proven far more knowledge. No Sir, you are the real keyboard warrior.

Цитата допису Fast•Eddie:

Цитата допису chiefputsilao✖️ping:

a college classmate of mine knows karate.
back in the days when we were still in college, he was robbed at gun point while going to school.



the gun won overwhelmingly.

Yeah but even if he had his own gun he still could have been robbed if he was held at gunpoint.

Exactly, why do people think they are fast enough to draw and other would allow them to draw and take aim.