Nainstalovat Steam
přihlásit se
|
jazyk
简体中文 (Zjednodušená čínština)
繁體中文 (Tradiční čínština)
日本語 (Japonština)
한국어 (Korejština)
ไทย (Thajština)
български (Bulharština)
Dansk (Dánština)
Deutsch (Němčina)
English (Angličtina)
Español-España (Evropská španělština)
Español-Latinoamérica (Latin. španělština)
Ελληνικά (Řečtina)
Français (Francouzština)
Italiano (Italština)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonéština)
Magyar (Maďarština)
Nederlands (Nizozemština)
Norsk (Norština)
Polski (Polština)
Português (Evropská portugalština)
Português-Brasil (Brazilská portugalština)
Română (Rumunština)
Русский (Ruština)
Suomi (Finština)
Svenska (Švédština)
Türkçe (Turečtina)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamština)
Українська (Ukrajinština)
Nahlásit problém s překladem
Pravidla a pokyny k diskuzím
Nahlásit tento příspěvek
if you want to be unstoppable nobody is going to teach you. teaching a style is teaching a method of holding back.
if you don't think holding back is important then maybe you don't know that much.
back in the days when we were still in college, he was robbed at gun point while going to school.
the gun won overwhelmingly.
When I did TKD they also taught us self defence such as locks and proper stances. I knew most of it back then already, but he taught us anyway, sadly the majority of class was still very incapable, I guess some ppl are just not made for fighting.
No, because no sane Karateka would use low stances and sill movements in a streetfight, its not supposed to be.
You would probably more think he is a kickboxer on first sight, a karateka is not seen.
Boxers are no martial artists as boxing is a combat sport a.k.a blood sport and not a martial art. Martial arts refers to Asian systems such as Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, etc..etc..etc...
People like Andy Hug and Lyoto Machida (Andy Hug the former trainer of my kickboxing trainer) have never really used actual Karate in their fights.... Andy Hug uses kickboxing, while kickboxing is made up from Karate and Boxing ofc some kicks might come through but these are not in his head from the stiff unrealistic karate training + he was practising Karate in a time in which ppl did not fear full contact and hitting the face, it was the golden 80s 90s.
Lyoto Machida also practiced other martial arts for his MMA career and combined things, he never sticked purely to Karate.
If you want examples take your average Black Belt in Europe, 9 out of 10 can not fight decently.
Sparring is usually not supposed to break your nose or get you so fu**ed up, these guys were disrespectful fools who just wanted to beat you down. However, injuries like this are the downside and final reason why I am not practising anything full contact anymore, I am in my late 20s, got family and dont want to be crippled for life, die on a brain bleeding or get damaged in any other way, hence I was looking more in to Karate...but at least some sparring should be part of it, in my opinion.
As said, no Karateka would use any traditional handbook techniques like low stances etc in a street fight...but they would still lose the street fight because any drunk brawler has more aggression in their pants.
Kata is garbage. If I spend the time I spend on Katas on active at least semi contact sparring at least, I will be much more prepared for a self defence situation than having walked Kata for thousands of hours.
Holding back is not important if you are aiming to become a fighter, as a fighter simply does not hold back he goes through with this punches, hence martial arts like Muay Thai and Boxing dominate the streets, not Shotokan Karate.
I have sparred many Karateka and they always sucked in sparring, sparring is as close as it gets to a real fight...and dont tell me they did not win because they could not use their taboo techniques such as eye gauging...someone who can not even throw a decent punch or hold up cover will also not win by kicking balls or knees.
Facts! Teaching a style is not teaching to hold back, teaching a combat system / fighting system is t eaching someone how to use this to safe his life or fight in a war, all the holding back stuff comes with great self confidence but should not be the goal of the actual martial art. This is western esoteric bullocks for people who are too scared to learn a full contact hardcore system such as MT or MMA, which both works amazing for self defence and any unarmed fight situation.
different arts have different objectives and ideas involved, some of which are strictly for killing and maiming and hold absolutely no deeper meaning to their existence. much like most of their practitioners as I'm sure any one of them would tell you.
the point is that style is irrelevent outside of the individual. you're your own style, regardless of what kind of techniques you decide to fight or train with. a kata is just a teaching tool developed and utilized when arts are practiced openly, or for religious or grading purposes as in the case of shaolin and other mountain cults.
as people keep saying, if you're really concerned about killing people just use a weapon. if they don't have a weapon, just run away. some drunk is not gonna catch you if you run 7 miles every day.
You have obviously never read about the history of Karate, if you would have done you would know that as mentioned several times, before the reform in 1930, before Karate came to the Japanese mainland, it was strongly based on self-defence and combat, it involved katas as well, but these were more realistic.
I also know that the Kata is a tool of training and the deep stance is used to train and strengthen your legs and ligaments.
Nothing of what you have said changes the fact that modern Karate let it be Shotokan, Kyokushin or any other style is simply a bad choice for self defence. Self defence has nothing to do with killing someone, not sure where you got that from.
I have also thoroughly explained that the majority of Dojos let you walk the Kata 90% of the time, the Kata should never ever be the focus in any Karate training, it should be part of it, same as the Bunkai and Kumite should be part of it. This whole " safe karate training for health " has nothing to do with the actual Karate nor is it the Karate the former founders wanted to see.
Even founder of Shotokan Karate Gichin Funakoshi never wanted his Shotokan Karate to become entirely focused on bloody forms and only health, he always wanted it to be also a decent self defence system for civilians. But again, if you would have actually read about the history of Karate and about the history of many other traditional martial arts, you would know that all of these beautiful system were crippled by the western world and turned in to either SPORT or in to HEALTH and ISOTERIC bullocks.
People who go to Karate to exclusively train health, have simply choosen the wrong martial art as a martial art is always for fighting in the very first aspect! Hence its called a MARTIAL art.
And if you seriously think Shaolin monks train Kung-Fu for only religious reasons, then you are wrong. Shaolin Monks train Shaolin Kung-Fu to stay fit and be able to defend their temples and helpless people against oppressors. That their Kung Fu also has a spiritual effect comes last and is pretty much the positive side effect of almost ever art.
But again back to topic, this was not about how you enjoy the Kata in Karate, this was about Shotokan Karate being rather useless for self defence and inferior to Muay Thai and other more aggressive systems. I am 100% there is some Dojo at Okinawa which trains a very tough and hard Karate, but what we got here in Europe has nothing to do with it.
I also would like to point out that I am not sure why people keep believing that a hard and tough Karate training with Kumite and contact would not involve anything spiritual and mind control, this is so wrong. Karate as it was taught in its ancient form involved plenty of spiritual and mental training, at an even higher leven than now, but the focus on actual fighting and hardening was never ever lost. Systems today are just softened down systems that ONLY focus on spiritual training and walking down katas. THIS is not the purpose of a martial art.
Source: I have practiced following martial arts since the last 15 years : Judo,Kung Fu, Kickboxing, Karate, Boxing, Taekwondo, MMA, some MT, Gjogsul, Ju-Jutsu (Police JuJutsu), Krav Maga. I have come to at least a decent grade in most of these systems I have trained and are very well aware of how they work and have read myself in to most of the histories as well as I find it interesting. So dont come with garbage like " Different arts have different objectives " bullocks, this might work in your McDojo where every 6 yrs old holds a black belt, but not with someone like me who is very aware of what every MARTIAL art has eventually been developed for. The objectives have always been the destruction of your enemy, give me one example of one martial art that has originally not been developed to destroy your enemy.
Right..All of them have, even Shi-Gong.
shaolin was developed as a result of a visiting yogi whose name I don't remember, who basically taught them yoga. they eventually get attacked by raiders, who pretty much kick their ass despite how fit they were. after a major temple reformation, and likely several hundred years of complicated mercenary work to maintain their independence and protection from bandits, it became so complicated that it eventually had a major reformation of its own into the 12 animal styles, or Kempo. this came along with teaching katas, writing manuals, etc. today the temple has very little religious practice, but lots of potential for grading and demonstrating ones performances. I understand wudang is more religious though? not sure. tons of nameless crazies in the mountains doing all kinds of stuff too, I bet.
basically all east asian martial arts trace their influence through shaolin, and most of them teach standard yoga poses or mild modifications at pretty much all levels of training. in china in particular, before then there was nothing but 'shui jiao' which may as well be 'wrasslin,' just a wide collection of folk techniques with no tradition and no lineage. most martial arts have both, and are just a collection of techniques and guiding principles which are occasionally organized beyond the immediate-transmission instructor level. mostly for cultural reasons when such organizational shifts occur.
the objective of karate is to protect yourself against armed and armored samurai from feudal japan, typically by running away for a while to tire them out while catching/deflecting arrows and potentially punching or kicking through their armored breastplate. ideally they never even caught you or knew who you were, and if you injured one someone would come looking. most of that isn't relevant anymore, excepting running away and using cover. but that's authentically what the art was made for long before it was co-opted into a larger culture or sport.
i mean, aikido was specifically developed as a derivative of aikijujitsu as mildly dislocating even a single bone tends to be a potentially crippling, life-altering event. and judo is literally 'the gentle way' because it lands you on your back, where almost none of your fatal points are. so you aren't going to knock them down and have them tilt their head or whack a barstool on the way down, killing them instantly.
I poked you about killing because of all the 'real wrassling' talk, that's all. it's literally about identity and self-control and culture, and all of that begins with speech. otherwise it's just fighting.
A lot of talk but so little message.
Technically you have repeated most of what I have stated already and have not really answered any of my questions.
So I will make this very simple as I assume most commentors on here have understood what I am saying with my thread.
I am saying that Shotokan Karate is not very useful for self-defence as it is rather taught as a health sport such as Yoga or more Gji-Gong than an actual self-defence system. Shotokan Karate does not train self defence components and Kumite often nor intensive enough to make it count in a street fight, hence I would point every single person who really really worries about their well-being and wants to learn real, effective, no bullshi* self defence, towards Muay-Thai and MMA. Both are pretty much combat sports nowadays but both will turn you in to exactly that, a combat machine that works with immense power, speed, accuracy and destructive techniques that will make you victorious in any street fight that does NOT involve weapons such as knives, baseball bats or similar, although a true Muay-Thai instructor will train you in weapons as well, but even the sport versions already are enough.
I know this because I was growing up with Kickboxing, it was and is a big thing where I live and all the good streetfighters in my time as a teenager were Kickboxer and pretty much kicked a$$ every week, most of them were Russian dudes who everyone feared.
Dont get me wrong, I dont support illegal fighting on the street nor do I support anyone who uses violence against other people in public life other than a boxing match or MMA match, but I am a realist and I wont tell everyone that Karate and Wing-Tsun and all the similar garbage are going to safe your a$$ if it simply is not. I made my experience with it so made many others who had a look in to these martial arts.
My conclusion here is simple: If you practiced some martial arts and combat sports like I did, even if it was not for a long time but IF it made you confident enough to fight, you do not need to train it anymore to spare your body further damage and you are much better off working out with weights and body weight, going running regulary and hitting the punching bag in your garden. This will make you a more dangerous individual than Shotokan Karate classes around the corner. Its sad...but very true and lets face it, someone who looks like a killing machine wont be attacked anyway. Muscles do help and muscles win you a fight if you are still very fast and know how to throw decent punches. No need for silly Karate.
Eventually this process took so long that he'd be late for school no matter what happened, and his only way out of this situation was to learn croatian and start talking out why these people wanted to fight him so much. To me that's the essence of martial arts.
Like I feel you are implying in your last paragraph, the only real reason to train is to gain the self-confidence necessary not to fight. I don't think 'styles' and 'schools' have much to do with that. Rather, I think they exist to get students to quarrel with eachother and for money to fall out of that conflict. When they aren't just a social club, of course.
Altough I agree with the approach of talking with someone to avoid fighting or avoiding a fight at any other possible costs, I am also aware that Karate definitely does not teach you to avoid a fight, but it also does not teach you to pick a fight.
You are approaching this from a way too philosophical position. A martial artist SHOULD be much less likely to fight someone but he should also be able to defend himself and other EFFECTIVELY if a fight is unavoidable.
This is what Shotokan Karate is not best for. If you really want to survive an attack that you can not avoid, you need something more full-contact. Simple. You can philosoph as much as you want and I recommend you to always try to solve a problematic situation with words first, but there are certain people on this world who just want to fight and are very difficult to avoid.
See, you can try to research, learn someones language and try to understand the why to talk to these people whenever you want to, but if you were stabbed with a knife you might not be capable of doing so anymore.
I also do not really see how all of your talk has anything to do with the plain technical discussion about the Karate fighting system, this topic never was about the spiritual part of Karate, this was always about how effective the fighting system is and what should be used for fighting instead.
I am practicing Karate myself, but I am aware that even if I train for many years as hard as I can, someone who trained Muay Thai for at least the same amount of time will simply beat my a$$ and this is because he is used to beating every single week while I only hit semi-contact Kumite.
So again, if someone is looking for an effective self defence system because he works as a cop, soldier, lives in a rough neihgbourhood or is target of violence for whatever other reason, I will throw him in to a MMA gym and not in a Shotokan Karate club.
You are talking philosophy here I am talking combat. Both goes hand in hand to a certain extend but a sensei or even a fighting system can be cooperating with morals and philosophic approaches as much as it wants, if it does not make a person go through pain and consequence before a person has to bleed, then this system is just garbage.
PS: Luckily my Karate Dojo trains me in everything, Kata,Bunkai,Kumite, How to avoid problematic situations BEFORE the fight has started and on top of that intensive self defence training. Sadly the majority of dojos does not do that.... So stop over-analysing this and just admit that Karate is not the ideal self defence system and there are better systems to prepare one for battle, if a person wants to be prepared for battle or not is their own decision as you dont know the person and dont know why he or she might need it and it is not our place to judge that.
And an other simple note, most door supervisors a.k.a bouncers, SWAT operators, navy seals and other job roles that are in trouble a lot SWEAR on aggressive full contact martial arts such as MUAY THAI ideally combined with BJJ.
So please stop telling me about the basics of life, which avoiding a fight is definitely part of, this thread is about fighting systems let it be martial arts or combat sports, not about the philosophy behind esoteric martial arts approaches.
they don't teach you that because it's not really about combat, and freely spreading that kind of knowledge around is only going to benefit antisocial jerks who just want to hurt people for fun and profit. to be frank, almost everything you might learn in a military training course you probably already know by now, and that's already combat. you don't need to study 20 years to do that. you don't need to take on the 'martial artist' identity for that, and infact that pretension is just going to get in the way of taking your enemy seriously. you're always going to be thinking in the back of your mind 'am I a great martial artist? is this opponent strong? can I take them?' or some crap like that, rather than how to beat them properly.
forcing someone to talk or listen to you while all they do is throw hands? that's almost impossible, but the more you hit eachother and the more you get caught up in eachothers rhythms the harder it will become for either of you to listen and also the more impossible it will become for either of you to ignore eachother.
if all you do is instantly beat them up, have they actually learned not to attack people or have they only learned not to attack you? have you resolved the isssue, or have you shuffed it off onto someone further down the line who isn't going to be as experienced as you are? are you actually good enough to beat them demonstratively and "teach them a lesson," or is it all you can do just to kao loi and backfist them when they're off-balance?
do you control the fight, or does the fight control you? answering that question begins with philosophical nonsense the same way throwing a punch begins with pushups and horse stance. it's silly. martial arts are silly. again, if you take the estoteric portions away from a martial art you don't have a martial art anymore. it's just punching people. "fist style" martial arts.
you seem to think martial arts = punching people, but you say yourself most of these schools don't seem particularly concerned about actually punching people for some reason. it's as if the concept of a martial art were secondary to the punching and the kicking somehow, like they were all secretly some kind of Fight Club-type organization where their personal ideals eclipsed the face of what they were providing.
you don't seem to like the social club, so I would suggest you stop associating yourself with schools rather than trying to tear the schools down.
(this post of mine is a dumb and bad joke, do not touch)
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduMXDd7sC9MiofK/giphy.gif