No Deus Vult in - Crusader Kings 3 - Whats your opinion? Are you hyped about it?

[AdahnGorion]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/10/19/crusader-kings-3-is-happening-heres-ten-things-we-know-so-far/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rockpapershotgun%2Fsteam+%28Rock%2C+Paper%2C+Shotgun%3A+Steam+RSS%29

Paradox Interactive have announced Crusader Kings 3
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1158310/Crusader_Kings_III/

In the RPS article it says that they have excluded Deus Vult (a known expression, from the crusades meaning "God wills it") its been in the two other games. So why is it excluded now?

In the years since CK2’s release, “Deus Vult” – an eleventh century crusader battlecry – has become a vile meme beloved of racists on the internet. I asked how Paradox’s community team felt about this, and was told emphatically that the words will not appear in Crusader Kings 3. That’s refreshing, but in a game set during a time of conflicts fetishised by modern fascists, it’s the tip of the iceberg. I’ll be writing more about how Paradox are handling the political sensitivities of making a game about the crusades, and how they’re handling the representation of non-European cultures, in the weeks to come.

Do you think that is a good choice? Do you think it undermines history? Do you think other expressions will be removed? Like Allahu Akbar?

Give your opinion on the matter and if you want give a solution.
Personally I don't care if they changed it with "Gods wills it" or similar, but I do think its problematic to remove and censor stuff just because certain groups of people adopt various saying.. If that is the case, we might as well censor most sayings.. Because you can really be offended by anything now a days.


Are you hyped by Crusader kings 3 ?

[76109108007942031]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Darkie:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Radene:

Oh, is this one of those "I'm a racist but I pretend all I care is historical accuracy" threads?

Could you be more specific about that? Do you mean the new skill system is racist? or is it that people want deus vult and allahu akbar ingame when doing "crusades/jihads" or is it the breeding you can do ? (CK3 will focus alot more on the gene play)

There's a meme of people wanting lowkey racist things included in games for 'historical accuracy', no matter how accurate it actually is.

[Trundle]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Darkie:

Could you be more specific about that? Do you mean the new skill system is racist? or is it that people want deus vult and allahu akbar ingame when doing "crusades/jihads" or is it the breeding you can do ? (CK3 will focus alot more on the gene play)

There's a meme of people wanting lowkey racist things included in games for 'historical accuracy', no matter how accurate it actually is.

Yeah I know which group of people did this but too bad it got though.

[76561198034531618]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Darkie:

Could you be more specific about that? Do you mean the new skill system is racist? or is it that people want deus vult and allahu akbar ingame when doing "crusades/jihads" or is it the breeding you can do ? (CK3 will focus alot more on the gene play)

There's a meme of people wanting lowkey racist things included in games for 'historical accuracy', no matter how accurate it actually is.

Don't know that one. But I do know the one about socialists trying to rewrite history to be more inclusive and warm and fuzzy and fitting their politically correct agenda -- it's in pretty much every 'historical' game released nowadays.

[76109108007942031]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

There's a meme of people wanting lowkey racist things included in games for 'historical accuracy', no matter how accurate it actually is.

Don't know that one. But I do know the one about socialists trying to rewrite history to be more inclusive and warm and fuzzy and fitting their politically correct agenda -- it's in pretty much every 'historical' game released nowadays.

They both exist.

[76561198034531618]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

Don't know that one. But I do know the one about socialists trying to rewrite history to be more inclusive and warm and fuzzy and fitting their politically correct agenda -- it's in pretty much every 'historical' game released nowadays.

They both exist.

I'm not going to claim the contrary, I have just never encountered it. But my stance is that I want historical games to be as historically accurate as possible while still being a game: I don't care whether it is considered racist by some snowflakes nowadays (Hell, these days plenty of people claim H.P. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, FFS)! I don't even care if it were actually racist, as long as it's accurate! And if it's inaccurate and racist, it has no place in a historical game; and if it's inaccurate and inclusive, it has no place; and if it's inaccurate and aligns perfectly with my own socio-political worldview, it still has no place...

[Masque]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Radene:

Oh, is this one of those "I'm a racist but I pretend all I care is historical accuracy" threads?

Yes. Yes, it's all dog-whistles. We also want Pepe the frog and Honkler the Clown and OK hand signs in CK, too. Yep, that's what this is about. You figured it out. Dang it, now we have to make new secret codes, because you figured out our secret dog whistles. We underestimated you.

[Bamford]

airbrushing the past

its never consistent because its a revisionist agenda.

words no longer have meaning at this point, "racist" is anyone who doesn't agree with fringe leftists like rps.

[76561198034531618]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AhGYo9TExU

[Arvaos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Darkie:

Początkowo opublikowane przez iza:

Crusader DLC 3.. yeah I'll pass on that lmfao.

The DLC's are actually a good thing.. Think about it. You get to play a game that is constantly updated and patched for 5-12 years and enhance it everytime, if this was a SEGA/EA/Bio game, then you would instead have a narrow focus and a new game every 6-12 month, for full price and still have dozens of DLC's!...

That is a model for fans of the genre or people that only play a single game as this type of game wouldn't be for casual gamers in the first place.

[76109108007942031]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

They both exist.

I'm not going to claim the contrary, I have just never encountered it. But my stance is that I want historical games to be as historically accurate as possible while still being a game: I don't care whether it is considered racist by some snowflakes nowadays (Hell, these days plenty of people claim H.P. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, FFS)! I don't even care if it were actually racist, as long as it's accurate! And if it's inaccurate and racist, it has no place in a historical game; and if it's inaccurate and inclusive, it has no place; and if it's inaccurate and aligns perfectly with my own socio-political worldview, it still has no place...

At the end of the day though, games are meant to be entertainment not education. If the majority deem inaccurate history to be more fun or less off-putting then I don't see an issue with making inaccurate games.

[Arvaos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

I'm not going to claim the contrary, I have just never encountered it. But my stance is that I want historical games to be as historically accurate as possible while still being a game: I don't care whether it is considered racist by some snowflakes nowadays (Hell, these days plenty of people claim H.P. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, FFS)! I don't even care if it were actually racist, as long as it's accurate! And if it's inaccurate and racist, it has no place in a historical game; and if it's inaccurate and inclusive, it has no place; and if it's inaccurate and aligns perfectly with my own socio-political worldview, it still has no place...

At the end of the day though, games are meant to be entertainment not education. If the majority deem inaccurate history to be more fun or less off-putting then I don't see an issue with making inaccurate games.

Did the developers state it is historical rather than historically authentic? Unless you have a time machine to go back centuries, you will be reading, watching or playing a historically authentic account of the events which may or may not have been romanticized by the author.

[76561198034531618]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

I'm not going to claim the contrary, I have just never encountered it. But my stance is that I want historical games to be as historically accurate as possible while still being a game: I don't care whether it is considered racist by some snowflakes nowadays (Hell, these days plenty of people claim H.P. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, FFS)! I don't even care if it were actually racist, as long as it's accurate! And if it's inaccurate and racist, it has no place in a historical game; and if it's inaccurate and inclusive, it has no place; and if it's inaccurate and aligns perfectly with my own socio-political worldview, it still has no place...

At the end of the day though, games are meant to be entertainment not education. If the majority deem inaccurate history to be more fun or less off-putting then I don't see an issue with making inaccurate games.

I agree most games are first and foremost entertainment, though they can also be used as a didactic tool. But the implication that a game becomes less entertaining due to being more historically accurate is largely spurious (sure a game where your M-16 keeps jamming just like IRL, could get kind of annoying for most, though I'd personally love it xD ), because entertainment and non-'off-putting-ness' are completely different things.
You should make sure your game is fun to play, but sacrificing historical accuracy for fear of putting-off someone is a very slippery slope, better avoided altogether. And most importantly, if you take out some historical detail, you should not replace it with a lie!

Edit: And, of course, if you sacrifice historical accuracy for entertainment, then you CANNOT market your game as historic or historical.

[76109108007942031]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

At the end of the day though, games are meant to be entertainment not education. If the majority deem inaccurate history to be more fun or less off-putting then I don't see an issue with making inaccurate games.

I agree most games are first and foremost entertainment, though they can also be used as a didactic tool. But the implication that a game becomes less entertaining due to being more historically accurate is largely spurious (sure a game where your M-16 keeps jamming just like IRL, could get kind of annoying for most, though I'd personally love it xD ), because entertainment and non-'off-putting-ness' are completely different things. You should make sure you game is fun to play, but sacrificing historical accuracy for fear of putting-off someone is a very slippery slope, better avoided altogether. And most importantly, if you take out some historical detail, you should not replace it with a lie!

I believe one of the examples of historical inaccuracy I saw someone complain about me (who could have just been a troll I guess) was the fact no one in Red Dead Redemption 2 uses slurs or something like that (I've never played the game so I don't know if it's true). That's the sort of thing that would be accurate, but would be off-putting for some people and could be removed without sacrificing too much in regards to entertainment.

Edit for your edit: Yes I agree, that's just false advertising.

[76561198034531618]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

I agree most games are first and foremost entertainment, though they can also be used as a didactic tool. But the implication that a game becomes less entertaining due to being more historically accurate is largely spurious (sure a game where your M-16 keeps jamming just like IRL, could get kind of annoying for most, though I'd personally love it xD ), because entertainment and non-'off-putting-ness' are completely different things. You should make sure you game is fun to play, but sacrificing historical accuracy for fear of putting-off someone is a very slippery slope, better avoided altogether. And most importantly, if you take out some historical detail, you should not replace it with a lie!

I believe one of the examples of historical inaccuracy I saw someone complain about me (who could have just been a troll I guess) was the fact no one in Red Dead Redemption 2 uses slurs or something like that (I've never played the game so I don't know if it's true). That's the sort of thing that would be accurate, but would be off-putting for some people and could be removed without sacrificing too much in regards to entertainment.

Okay, that is fair. But if footage, a trailer, etc. had first been released in which that content was present, but it was missing from the final product, then that would be objectionable to me. But indeed, no need to put in every detail that any individual fan wants added... Where would it end? "I want this curve of the river to contain exactly X sand grains"...

[Arvaos]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kosmik Gopnik:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sir Illic:

I believe one of the examples of historical inaccuracy I saw someone complain about me (who could have just been a troll I guess) was the fact no one in Red Dead Redemption 2 uses slurs or something like that (I've never played the game so I don't know if it's true). That's the sort of thing that would be accurate, but would be off-putting for some people and could be removed without sacrificing too much in regards to entertainment.

Okay, that is fair. But if footage, a trailer, etc. had first been released in which that content was present, but it was missing from the final product, then that would be objectionable to me. But indeed, no need to put in every detail that any individual fan wants added... Where would it end? "I want this curve of the river to contain exactly X sand grains"...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_Kings_(video_game)

I checked and the game states it is based on historical themes rather than being a historical recollection therefore the developers are free to add or remove as they wish for the development of the game. They don't even have to hire historical scholars since they are not historians but game developers.