is it even worth it for game devs to invest in Denuvo Anti-Piracy?

[No gods, no masters.]

I mean like, seriously. Tekken 7 had just been cracked in a few days after the lauched with Denuvo protection. And then some people rolled out with a Denuvo License Generator. Now Denuvo is being sued for, as a anti-piracy company pirated another anti-piracy company's anti piracy plugin to implement it into their own anti-piracy plugin. Game devs pays up to 15 million+++ USD just to secure a few days worth of sales. Is that even fair for devs?

[rojimboo]

late night depression の投稿を引用：

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

I think it might be still worth it, considering most sales and revenue happen in the initial 30 days apparently, though the longtail is becoming more significant due to Steam Sales.

Considering it prevents zero-day piracy as well, and it is routinely patched away later for many games,it might be worth it.

Not sure if its worth 15 million USD (not sure about the accuracy of that amount), considering it is now cracked so quickly.

But on the plus side, it took them a loooong time to do it, creating sales and more content for gamers thus. One group almost gave up on it, for Just Cause 3.

I'm sure there will be new better iterations soon of Denuvo.

IMO i dont think its really worth it anymore. Look at Witcher 3, it's a widely successful game and most of it's sales are on PC because it is well respected by the PC community. One of the reasons why the PC community respects Witcher 3 and CD Projekt Red is because the devs also respects the community and does not include invasive DRM protection in their game. 15 Million is just an rough estimate based on the numbers my friends (also devs, who asked for the prices of Denuvo) gave me. Btw there's already a bypasser for JC3 but no one really uses it because it's buggy and it's much less hassle if you buy it from the steam store.

I'm getting very conflicting information about W3 from interviews of its developer.

Initially the split was 30% PC 70% consoles, and at full price that would make it the most revenue impacting.

http://wccftech.com/witcher-3-sales-split-30-pc-70-console/

He also said that without consoles, there is no W3 as it is.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-05-19-cd-projekt-red-tackles-the-witcher-3-graphics-downgrade-issue-head-on

Then without actual sales number out of the blue the situation apparently changed?
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/cd-projekt-reds-marcin-iwinski-most-of-the-witcher-sales-are-for-the-pc/

The numbers don't really make much sense tbh.
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt-has-sold-near-to-10-million-copies-worldwide/

So let's say 9 million for W3 worldwide across all three platforms, with 2 million for Steam alone. Based on prior data, GOG sold a bit better in fact, so 3 million for GoG. But this doesn't include retail which comprised 75% of initial sales on retail out of the six million at that time, for all platforms. Which would make it 4.5 million if we assume little additional retail sales. But already we are beyond the 9million they reported, and this assumption is likely not even valid. And based on this, PC would barely have more sales than the consoles. Also, in terms of revenue, I would argue most of it was made on consoles, due to fullprice copies being sold, instead of the 85% off which it seems to be now on PC, and the longtail.

In any case, 9 or even 10 million copies sold on PC for such a game is actually quite disappointing. Diablo 3 sold 15 million copies, and if you look at reviews, it's certainly not a better game, no free DLC, always-online DRM, hated AAA company, no 85% off etc.

But it did have an uncrackable DRM.

Food for thought.

[rojimboo]

Zubenelgenubi の投稿を引用：

It's all making it more appealing for game companies to create online multiplayer games. What piracy is really killing is just the single player game, and everyone might regret that one day.

This, so much this.

Ghazi has an excellent article on Tweakguides.com about shifting business models due to piracy, but people rather close their eyes and believe all PR stunts from developers or owners of digital distribution platforms.

See my motto on my profile page, btw

[Xaelath]

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

In any case, 9 or even 10 million copies sold on PC for such a game is actually quite disappointing. Diablo 3 sold 15 million copies, and if you look at reviews, it's certainly not a better game, no free DLC, always-online DRM, hated AAA company, no 85% off etc.

But it did have an uncrackable DRM.

Food for thought.

Sales depends on the Fanbase,Hype,Marketing and Previous Franchiese Installment including the Publisher name itself.
Before Wither 3, other games they made none of them were famous as Diablo was considered Old game masterpiece with more fanbase than Witcher
See this Diablo[en.wikipedia.org]
Publisher/Developer - Blizzard which actually known dev for their Warcraft games while CD Project red got nothing at the time and they make a bet about Witcher 3.

Again you're asking for an example it should be something like game that sells less than 5 million worldwide on its lifetime.
Not All people play Dunevo Tittle games.
Put it an Example > Tekken 6 , Fighting games, Online/Multiplayer support.
I doubt we can even get 1 million sales on the first day.

IF you consider this worth

In the U.K, Tekken 7 was the best selling software in the week of release;[72] this is a first for the series in 19 years, since the debut of Tekken 3 on the original PlayStation.[73] The game also topped the Japanese charts in its first week, selling 58,736 copies.[74]

I am questioning the same thing, "Does dunevo even worth?"

[_SaW_MaSteR_]

Seeking a man from the United States to receive SMS
I pay 5 $ steam for 1 sms

[rojimboo]

Red Monk の投稿を引用：

I'm not entirely sure about this but apparently people who pirate the denuvo cracked copy of Tekken 7 are able to play online with the steam community.

How does that even work?

I tend not to think of pirating, it'll always be around and there is nothing you can do to stop it, I don't know why some devs even bother trying to combat it.

Diablo 3 says hi!

Also Denuvo games initially back in the day say hi!

Also also DRM is not there to stop piracy, just reduce it, especially initially.

It's a bit like saying, well since antibiotics don't work against viruses, why bother making/taking antibiotics?

Or, since we won't likely meet Paris agreement emissions reductions, why do anything?

Well, the impact will be smaller, put it simply.

What is really atrocious, is people actually boycotting DRM games due to some ideology, or misguided notions about performance issues.

"DENUVO DESTROYED MY GAMING PC, RAWWWR!"

[Lusus Symphonia]

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

Diablo 3 says hi!

Also Denuvo games initially back in the day say hi!

Also also DRM is not there to stop piracy, just reduce it, especially initially.

It's a bit like saying, well since antibiotics don't work against viruses, why bother making/taking antibiotics?

Or, since we won't likely meet Paris agreement emissions reductions, why do anything?

Well, the impact will be smaller, put it simply.

What is really atrocious, is people actually boycotting DRM games due to some ideology, or misguided notions about performance issues.

"DENUVO DESTROYED MY GAMING PC, RAWWWR!"

Posted a comment in another topic and it posted here, wtf, ended up deleting my comment by mistake.

Anyway, Yes I see your point but it's a bit of a gamble really, someone could have cracked the game on the first day, apparently Tekken 7 was cracked by a "newbie" as everyone keeps saying.

The accusations against Denuvo is also pathetic and hold no ground.

[Xaelath]

Red Monk の投稿を引用：

I'm not entirely sure about this but apparently people who pirate the denuvo cracked copy of Tekken 7 are able to play online with the steam community.

How does that even work?

I tend not to think of pirating, it'll always be around and there is nothing you can do to stop it, I don't know why some devs even bother trying to combat it.

Apparent its called "Space War" Server which connected to steam.

Find one in Steam Discussions,
It seems like the latest piracy making online server works.

It is bad, yes.
Either way discussing stuff like this kinda depresing because you cant stop piracy unless theres somekind of developer together to close the case once for all.
Then i remember about gabe newell quote "One thing that we have learned is that piracy is not a pricing issues. Its a service issues"

What i am afraid about was PC port/release will not getting an exclusive or released late compared consoles. Which i actually dont mind as long its a single player game, Day 1 hype doesnt really matter as long you can experiences it.
but thats just me..

I think for smart Publisher that want to avoid Piracy is to avoid releasing the game for PC along with console if they think Piracy really affect sales. (at the same time also promoting consoles)

[Azza ☠]

So far it's only been slowing down game performance of legal owners... so not really.

I wish more game developers where like "CD Projekt Red". Rather than worrying so much about protection, create a quality game people are willing to purchase and support. Focus and give something to the paying customers, rather than crippling them just to try stop the ones not willing to pay (who are mostly underage kids or job-less adults).

As for priated copies of games, such as Tekken 7. Enjoy your malware infection cheap-o kiddo, there's a seriously bad infected copy of that game floating around. I've even heard people even crying on Steam about it and attempting to format their Operating System due to the mass infection of it's trojan dropper.

I also find it funny when game developers add hidden crack detect features into the game. Those are basic and don't affect performance. So they can't win after a certain point or something messes up and glitches. Get a ton on complaints on their forums, then they are just like umm, purchase the game buddy! LMAO.

[rojimboo]

I actually go the other way, I boycott DRM free games, and havent thus touched Witcher 3.

Maybe in the bargain bin for 5euros on a DRM platform, would I consider selling my principles.

In my eyes GOG is evil and harmful not only to the industry but to gamers as well.

[Lusus Symphonia]

Xaelath の投稿を引用：

I think for smart Publisher that want to avoid Piracy is to avoid releasing the game for PC along with console if they think Piracy really affect sales. (at the same time also promoting consoles)

I don't really blame them in the end.
PC gaming has become bigger and bigger lately and the profits of releasing a console game on PC outweights the pirating issue though so publishers and developers would be stupid to not release it on PC now.

Also thanks for the explaination, it's uncomfortable that people who pirate games can play online with steam users.

[rojimboo]

Azza ☠ の投稿を引用：

I wish more game developers where like "CD Projekt Red". Rather than worrying so much about protection, create a quality game people are willing to purchase and support. Focus and give something to the paying customers, rather than crippling them just to try stop the ones not willing to pay (who are mostly underage kids or job-less adults).

But that does not work ever at all.

Witcher 2 had a piracy rate of 80% based on CDPR, and this was at the time an indie game, with excellent reviews, good bang for buck, a likeable developer etc etc.

In fact, according to Ghazi, the only thing that correlates with piracy rate is the popularity of the game.

[Xaelath]

Red Monk の投稿を引用：

Xaelath の投稿を引用：

I think for smart Publisher that want to avoid Piracy is to avoid releasing the game for PC along with console if they think Piracy really affect sales. (at the same time also promoting consoles)

I don't really blame them in the end.
PC gaming has become bigger and bigger lately and the profits of releasing a console game on PC outweights the pirating issue though so publishers and developers would be stupid to not release it on PC now.

Which makes me confused, if it's going to end pirated either way why bother putting 3rd party DRM?
I am seriously asking how much does it cost to put a dunevo license on a game/application? If it's cheap then yeah i think it's worth the try.

Also check their website, they're looking for developers to hire.

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

I actually go the other way, I boycott DRM free games, and havent thus touched Witcher 3.

Maybe in the bargain bin for 5euros on a DRM platform, would I consider selling my principles.

In my eyes GOG is evil and harmful not only to the industry but to gamers as well.

Well cmiiw theres tons of games that doesn't even use DRM free games i don't think you can boycott them all for the sake of principles.

Talk about gog , I've been seeing people praising GoG rather than steam in past few years until it recently died out.
Not sure why but i can't pick gog due region pricing reason and community.
I am still regretting time wasted on free to play games such as dota especially getting hooked by spending ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of un marketable crap + having the same game experience for 5 straight years.

[Azza ☠]

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

Azza ☠ の投稿を引用：

I wish more game developers where like "CD Projekt Red". Rather than worrying so much about protection, create a quality game people are willing to purchase and support. Focus and give something to the paying customers, rather than crippling them just to try stop the ones not willing to pay (who are mostly underage kids or job-less adults).

But that does not work ever at all.

Witcher 2 had a piracy rate of 80% based on CDPR, and this was at the time an indie game, with excellent reviews, good bang for buck, a likeable developer etc etc.

In fact, according to Ghazi, the only thing that correlates with piracy rate is the popularity of the game.

Well it worked for me.

As a kid, I borrowed "The Witcher" off a friend. No need to crack or mess with it, just enjoyed the game. At that age, I wasn't legally allowed to buy the game anyways (so I would of never had it otherwise). Later on, I purchased the entire game series and will continue to do so. Even the DLCS are well worth it.

Quoting the game developer:

"We released [The Witcher 3] without any copy protection," Iwiński says, via Kotaku. "So, on day one, you could download the game from GOG, and give it to a friend (enemy as well)... and still we sold near to ten-million units across all three platforms. But the piracy factor was irrelevant, because we cannot force people to buy things. We can only convince them to do it.

"We totally believe in the carrot, not in the stick... I’ve seen many times, comments [that say] ‘Hey, I couldn’t afford the game when it was full price, but these guys are so fair, and they were never against us. They were always trying to do good, add a lot of value, give free DLC, give free content, that I bought the game from them when it was mid-price.’

"[In] lower income countries, people just cannot afford a $50 game. So maybe our price-point offering in a certain country wasn’t right. For example, we have lower prices in Russia. And there is many cases like that."

It's not fool proof, but it's a better way to address it. Consider it like free advertising to billions of people, just trying to encourage them to support it, rather than enforce it.

The die hard pirates still won't pay either way, but a few people just want to know the game is good before they cash out...

[Xaelath]

Azza ☠ の投稿を引用：

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

But that does not work ever at all.

Witcher 2 had a piracy rate of 80% based on CDPR, and this was at the time an indie game, with excellent reviews, good bang for buck, a likeable developer etc etc.

In fact, according to Ghazi, the only thing that correlates with piracy rate is the popularity of the game.

Well it worked for me.

As a kid, I borrowed "The Witcher" off a friend. No need to crack or mess with it, just enjoyed the game. At that age, I wasn't legally allowed to buy the game anyways (so I would of never had it otherwise). Later on, I purchased the entire game series and will continue to do so. Even the DLCS are well worth it.

Quoting the game developer:

"We released [The Witcher 3] without any copy protection," Iwiński says, via Kotaku. "So, on day one, you could download the game from GOG, and give it to a friend (enemy as well)... and still we sold near to ten-million units across all three platforms. But the piracy factor was irrelevant, because we cannot force people to buy things. We can only convince them to do it.

"We totally believe in the carrot, not in the stick... I’ve seen many times, comments [that say] ‘Hey, I couldn’t afford the game when it was full price, but these guys are so fair, and they were never against us. They were always trying to do good, add a lot of value, give free DLC, give free content, that I bought the game from them when it was mid-price.’

"[In] lower income countries, people just cannot afford a $50 game. So maybe our price-point offering in a certain country wasn’t right. For example, we have lower prices in Russia. And there is many cases like that."

It's not fool proof, but it's a better way to address it. Consider it like free advertising to billions of people, just trying to encourage them to support it, rather than enforce it.

The die hard pirates still won't pay either way, but a few people just want to know the game is good before they cash out...

I am impressed,

Well Informed

[rojimboo]

Azza ☠ の投稿を引用：

rojimboo の投稿を引用：

But that does not work ever at all.

Witcher 2 had a piracy rate of 80% based on CDPR, and this was at the time an indie game, with excellent reviews, good bang for buck, a likeable developer etc etc.

In fact, according to Ghazi, the only thing that correlates with piracy rate is the popularity of the game.

Well it worked for me.

As a kid, I borrowed "The Witcher" off a friend. No need to crack or mess with it, just enjoyed the game. At that age, I wasn't legally allowed to buy the game anyways (so I would of never had it otherwise). Later on, I purchased the entire game series and will continue to do so. Even the DLCS are well worth it.

Quoting the game developer:

"We released [The Witcher 3] without any copy protection," Iwiński says, via Kotaku. "So, on day one, you could download the game from GOG, and give it to a friend (enemy as well)... and still we sold near to ten-million units across all three platforms. But the piracy factor was irrelevant, because we cannot force people to buy things. We can only convince them to do it.

"We totally believe in the carrot, not in the stick... I’ve seen many times, comments [that say] ‘Hey, I couldn’t afford the game when it was full price, but these guys are so fair, and they were never against us. They were always trying to do good, add a lot of value, give free DLC, give free content, that I bought the game from them when it was mid-price.’

"[In] lower income countries, people just cannot afford a $50 game. So maybe our price-point offering in a certain country wasn’t right. For example, we have lower prices in Russia. And there is many cases like that."

It's not fool proof, but it's a better way to address it. Consider it like free advertising to billions of people, just trying to encourage them to support it, rather than enforce it.

The die hard pirates still won't pay either way, but a few people just want to know the game is good before they cash out...

If only it actually worked for the majority. 4 out of 5 people who played Witcher 2 never bought it. And Witcher 2's piracy rate is on the lower end of the spectrum at the time, when World of Goo and Machinarium released their estimates of piracy rates (in the 90%+ range).

Advertising through piracy, i.e. positive network effects of piracy are actually quite limited. What incentive is there for pirates to purchase an identical copy of the game they already finished? You imply there is a moral aspect to this, i.e. honest pirates who do this, but this is hardly the case based on piracy rates and sales.

Your example of not being old enough is merely anectodal, though I commend for eventually purchasing the games.

You also forgot to mention another excuse for copyright infringement. That is, the demo argument, or the sampling argument. "I'm just going to see if it works!" 200 hours later, and 60euros richer, the pirate remains happy.

Also, it is hardly the 'better way' to address rampant piracy. Developers should focus on the most sales, as then they are better equipped to offer more creative content to gamers, better quality products that are more innovative. This is all in my critical literature review of peer reviewed science in to the matter, I can quote the link if anyone is interested?

The 'soft effect' of having an example of a game that (didn't sell as well as it should, see previous post) is DRM free and promotes DRM free, does damage to the whole industry as it makes gamers expect it, and on top of that free DLC. Sure it might have worked for CDPR this time and next time maybe, but what about the other poor developers who can ill afford to do so? They take a bigger hit relatively from piracy, and it might even break them.

On the whole it is detrimental, but people suck it up not realising the bigger picture, and because of short-sighted gains (yay I can store and possibly share a DRM free copy on physical media that will break down faster than cloud based services, yay).

This is why I boycott GOG, and hope others would do the same. At least it largely remains a niche avenue for games, that are usually older. And that's fine.

Also, the fact that CDPR used to actually take people to court for piracy in Germany, and the fact that they make many if not most their sales on consoles, thus avoiding the pitfalls of Pc piracy, doesn't make me eager to believe everything they say as a PR stunt. Sort of like the owner of the biggest DRM platform saying DRM doesn't work, a la GabeN and then turning around and making all games multiplayer-centric F2P microtransaction games, rofl.