Do you think GPUs will ever be affordable again?

[Alxndr]

Things increase in price all the time, that's normal, it's called inflation. However there's regular inflation of everyday goods and services. Then there's giga-inflation, which only seems to affect GPUs and houses.

I think the problem ultimately boils down to lack of competition. There's basically 2 GPU companies in the whole world, Nvidia and AMD (sorry Intel you've got a long way to go yet).

So when you have virtually no competition at all you can create a card and sell it for $3000 and people will actually pay it for it because there's no other product available lol.

Back in the day I could build a top of the line gaming PC for about $1,500 and it would run everything at 1440p max settings and have no problem doing that for the next 10 years. (I'm looking at your 1080ti).

Now you have to upgrade your GPU every 2 years just to stay inline with the latest games. Games are releasing with graphics that are more demanding, faster than the production of the GPUs that can run it.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if in a few years games being developed will be developed with the intention of them running on a card that literally hasn't even been made yet.

For example GTA7 being developed with the intention of gamers using a 6090 with frame gen and dlss to get 60fps. (This probably won't happen from a reputable studio like Rockstar but I'm just using that as an example).

[wesnef]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Monk:

Then you cannot truly afford it, so, don't buy it, or budget and save up fir it over the generation of a card or two.

No one has to buy a gpu, especially not the very top models.

The problem isn't the $2k+ for "top models". It's the ever increasing low-end price, where "entry level" has crept up from $200 to $400+.

And yeah, *if* people want to play games, the kind of "have" to buy a GPU. Integrated graphics isn't enough. Unless you're going with the "well, no one has to play games" angle.

Which yes, is technically true. But we're here on the hardware forum of a game site. People who want to give up and just not play games any more, aren't really the audience.

[Monk]

Edit.
For the sake of clarification, I'll add this here, I was mistaken, that was on the 5070ti, not 5070.

Looking at how the 5070ti and 5080 overclock and perform at stock, the new architecture seems to offer a 10% ish gain over the previous generation, but, atleast half of that will vanish due to the 5070 having way less transistors, but, it should still overclock quite well, but again, it will very likely be starved of power and not worth upgrading to, maybe even buying over the 4070, let alone 4070ti/ super.

Edit over.



Frame chasers overclocked one (edit 5070ti not 5070) to 3300 in his video on it, but it was severy hampered by power limit, so throw in raytracing and it dropped clock speed a bunch (only so much power to go around), says he is planning to power mod the card to 'fix' said issue.

Im kind of glad I didn't get a 5090 day 1 in some ways for the same reason, it will be good to see which cards have the best power limits and which can and cannot take more.


As from both the 5080 and 70ti, they seem to both overclock to 3300 ish MHz, so it's a good chip (2800 ish stock I believe for both) and nvidia seems to be using power limits to kind of control performance a bit as they both have the same transistor count, it atleast on the surface appears that if you can raise the power limit on the 5070ti, you might be very close, or faster than a stock 5080 in the sane way old 70 series cards could be (8800gt refresh, 470, 670 etc).

[Monk]

Opprinnelig skrevet av wesnef:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Monk:

Then you cannot truly afford it, so, don't buy it, or budget and save up fir it over the generation of a card or two.

No one has to buy a gpu, especially not the very top models.

The problem isn't the $2k+ for "top models". It's the ever increasing low-end price, where "entry level" has crept up from $200 to $400+.

And yeah, *if* people want to play games, the kind of "have" to buy a GPU. Integrated graphics isn't enough. Unless you're going with the "well, no one has to play games" angle.

Which yes, is technically true. But we're here on the hardware forum of a game site. People who want to give up and just not play games any more, aren't really the audience.

So play at lower settings on older cards?

The costs involved in both development and production to new cards vs those 10 years ago is staggering, just look up the transistor counts to get an idea of why stuff has gotten more expensive.

9800 gtx = 754 million
275 = 1.4 billion
470 = 3.1 billion
570 = 3 billion (basically a refresh)
670 = 3.5 billion
770 = 3.5 billion (a refresh)
1070 = 7.2 billion
2070 = 10.8 billion
3070 = 17.4 billion
4070 = 35.8 billion
5070 = 31.1 billion
5070ti = 45.6 billion, the same as the 5080.

Kind of suggests why costs have increased.

[Alxndr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Monk:

So play at lower settings on older cards?

Unfortunately it seems this is the way the industry is going. When developers are creating graphically demanding games that rely on lazy coding and upscalers, with GPU companies not being able to produce a mid range GPU capable of running those games. It forces gamers to revert to previous gen technology, which is a very sad thing to see.

I have been gaming at 1440p for about 8 years and I never dreamt I'd have to go back to 1080p gaming someday. I thought the next step for me would be 4k... But in a way I think this might be a good thing for the gaming studios and the GPU companies.

1. Game studios will sell hardly any copies of their games because so few people can actually play them smoothly so it will force those studios to actually create good code and optimise their games.

2. GPU companies will make hardly any money because hardly anyone can afford the new GPUs being released. Although this wouldn't really affect Nvidia much as 90% of their profit comes from AI chips anyway. I doubt their gaming GPU side of the company will even exist in 10 years time. It's just not worth it for a company like Nvidia, it's pennies in profit compared to the AI chips.

I think in general the entire gaming sector needs a fat correction from top to bottom. There's only so many ♥♥♥♥♥♥ optimised upscaler dependant games you can make and there's only so many $2000 GPUs you can make before the gamers actually wake up and realise they're being shafted and refuse to cooperate.

[Iggy Wolf]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Monk:

Then you cannot truly afford it, so, don't buy it, or budget and save up fir it over the generation of a card or two.

No one has to buy a gpu, especially not the very top models.

No, I can afford it. I CHOOSE not to purchase it. It is NOT the same thing. There's value, and then there's being ripped off. There's nothing smart about paying more for something that costs more than it's worth. That's the kind of attitude scalpers love, because they depend on people with more money than brains. And I'm not so stupid as to prove them right.

[Tonepoet]

Opprinnelig skrevet av ᶻ𝗓𐰁:

Stop screaming, gpus are cheap. You guys just want Ferraris for ford money. If you can't afford $3k every 3 years, then spend $300 instead. You all sound so entitled.
The reason I chose the 970 was to show how inferior cards were more expensive. The 1060 6gb was cheaper than the 970, as you mentioned, but was a superior card for less money. It had the same MSRP as a 4060 despite inflation and despite vast tech superiority.

I'm not seeing much sense. If we can have a better card for less, why would we be happy to have an inferior card for more? Also, I hope you're not including me in that Ferari sentiment. I said to buy the card you can afford, and was using the B580 as the basis of comparison. The B580 is hardly the Ferrari of G.P.Us.

Also, I was using the 3gb 1060 as my basis of cost comparison. The 4060 is in line with what a 1060 6 gig cost at M.S.R.P.. should be, but considering the 4060 is cut down in some ways compared to the 3060 and has only 8 gigs of V.R.A.M., I don't think it ought to be compared to the 6 gig version which had decent V.R.A.M. for the time and more cores.

Also, if you're responding to my post, and it seems like you were, the 1060 3 gig and the B580 are hardly the ferraris of G.P.Us.

90/Titan class: Rolls Royce
80 Class: Ferrari
70 class B.M.W.
60 class: Ford
50 class: Honda
30 class: Yugo
10 Class: Broken Bicycle

All I'm asking for is for a Ford to be priced like a Ford. A 60 class card should be $250ish. Intel delivers on that pricing. Nvidia doesn't.

Opprinnelig skrevet av Alxndr:

So by that logic you can't complain about the price of fuel or groceries or anything because it's all optional? Fuel too expensive? Don't chose to drive. Groceries too expensive? Just eat ramen.

Just because something is optional, doesn't mean we can't complain about the high price.

People need fuel to go places for practical work and errand related reasons and gaming is not a necessity like food. Even if it was there's a difference between lamenting the price of staple food options that constitute a necessary part of a healthy diet and lamenting the cost of gourmet food options that are a luxury.

There's a difference between lamenting the cost of brocolli and lamenting the cost of truffles. There's a difference between lamenting the cost of chicken eggs and lamenting the cost of caviar. There's a difference between lamenting the cost of ground chuck and Filet Mignon.

A B580 is a more or less good value G.P.U. and if we're looking at Avowed's recommended hardware, then the recommended card is an RTX 3080, which is maybe worth $360 for the 10 gig model (sold out and refurb. though, not sure what a fair price for an equivalent new card would be).

[SHREDDER]

After ipaid 950 euros for MINE RX 6700XT 12 GB RED DEVIL in November 2021 when my previous gpu died(paid 450 euros more than it real price due to the crazy high demand due to the pandemic) nothing suprises me.

[C1REX]

The situation is unavoidable as we are getting deeper and deeper into diminishing returns. Triple effect.

1. More graphical effects are very expensive while not giving much perceived improvement. Like going 4K can look better than 1080p and 1440p but maybe not 4x or 2x better. Few percent better for double or quadruple the needed performance. Same for other expensive effects.

2. More transistors don’t scale that well any more. 2x more transistors don’t necessarily mean double the performance. Double the memory bandwidth doesn’t necessarily mean any big improvements at 1440p.

3. Hiring double the number of devs for twice as long doesn’t necessarily mean the game they work on will be that much better polished. Spending more money on devs may not give any meaningful improvements. It’s not about lazy. It’s how inefficient big teams can easily become and impossible to manage. Throwing money at them can actually make it worse.

[Alxndr]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Tonepoet:

A B580 is a more or less good value G.P.U. and if we're looking at Avowed's recommended hardware, then the recommended card is an RTX 3080, which is maybe worth $360 for the 10 gig model (sold out and refurb. though, not sure what a fair price for an equivalent new card would be).

Yes a B580 is a good value GPU... if your intention is to play at 1080p medium graphics with no ray tracing and stick to only optimised games.

A $350 card should be an entry level 1080p card.

A $600 card should be a mid range 1440p card.

A $1000+ card should be a high end 4k card.

But that's not what's happening, genuine mid range cards are now in excess of $1000. I bought a 4070 2 years ago for £600 (about $750) and I thought it was a decent mid range card that would see me good for about 5 years. 1440p gaming at high settings with ray tracing and the occasional use of an upscaler for a few select titles.

But I've quickly come to realise that the 4070 is now actually a 1080p card, not a 1440p. It was a 1440p upon release but now it's not. I'm sorry but if a card requires dlss and frame gen to achieve 60+ fps at 1440p it is NOT a 1440p card.

[Monk]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Iggy Wolf:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Monk:

Then you cannot truly afford it, so, don't buy it, or budget and save up fir it over the generation of a card or two.

No one has to buy a gpu, especially not the very top models.

No, I can afford it. I CHOOSE not to purchase it. It is NOT the same thing. There's value, and then there's being ripped off. There's nothing smart about paying more for something that costs more than it's worth. That's the kind of attitude scalpers love, because they depend on people with more money than brains. And I'm not so stupid as to prove them right.

Well, name me a luxury good that is not 'over priced'.

That you have to consider it's value means, you cannot really afford it and do not need it.

Nothing wrong with that,.
f I didn't specifically set aside money for my pc, aside from everything else, there is no way I could 'afford' or justify its expense either, but, because I set aside a few hundred bucks a month for my 'daft toy fund' when I want something the cash is there and I don't need to think about it, if it was in with my other money,, I'd never spend it and would of had less 'toys' over the years, be they gaming pc's, motor / mountain bikes, rc cars, miniatures, airsoft etc, they are all stupidly over priced and hard to justify really from your usual savings, which are there for boring adult-ing stuff.

Though, pc's are the cheapest.

By far.

Even high end.

[deadshooter]

well, they are affordable. Everyone could get a 1030

[ᶻ𝗓𐰁]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Tonepoet:

I'm not seeing much sense. If we can have a better card for less, why would we be happy to have an inferior card for more?

That was my point. The OP says GPUs aren't affordable anymore and I'm showing that vastly more powerful cards are available at the same price point as they were 10 years ago, even against inflation (which has been massive in the past 5 years or so).

A 1060 6gb cost $300 10 years ago, while an RX6600 costs $200, produces twice as many frames, has 25% more vram, RT support and FSR/framegen.

[Monk]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Alxndr:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Tonepoet:

A B580 is a more or less good value G.P.U. and if we're looking at Avowed's recommended hardware, then the recommended card is an RTX 3080, which is maybe worth $360 for the 10 gig model (sold out and refurb. though, not sure what a fair price for an equivalent new card would be).

Yes a B580 is a good value GPU... if your intention is to play at 1080p medium graphics with no ray tracing and stick to only optimised games.

A $350 card should be an entry level 1080p card.

A $600 card should be a mid range 1440p card.

A $1000+ card should be a high end 4k card.

But that's not what's happening, genuine mid range cards are now in excess of $1000. I bought a 4070 2 years ago for £600 (about $750) and I thought it was a decent mid range card that would see me good for about 5 years. 1440p gaming at high settings with ray tracing and the occasional use of an upscaler for a few select titles.

But I've quickly come to realise that the 4070 is now actually a 1080p card, not a 1440p. It was a 1440p upon release but now it's not. I'm sorry but if a card requires dlss and frame gen to achieve 60+ fps at 1440p it is NOT a 1440p card.

By that argument we don't have a current 4k card either, it depends on the game and settings and dlss is not a bad thing, neither is frame gen as long as you start from a decent base fps.

People need to learn to embrace the new tech or be prepared to pay £2000 for an entry level card.

[Chaosolous]

If you can't afford PC parts you can always buy a console.

[Iggy Wolf]

Or people can just stick to what they have. Nothing about the new cards warrants their price tag, and even less a necessity for them for what is unoptimized AI slop anyway that focuses too much on graphics and not enough on gameplay. My favorite games I'm playing right now are 10-15 years old, if not 20. They weren't fun because they needed a good GPU to run. They're fun because they still remembered they were a game.