What's the point in e cores?

[Drystoner]

I understand that e cores are supposed to help with background processes like the OS and other recording applications, but why not just add more regular cores?

These e cores are never used in gaming, are not as fast as regular cores, so I don't see the point?

Surely just adding more p cores will be better at this job? And I think that's the difference we are seeing with Intel and AMD right now. AMD are sticking with lots of regular cores multithreading, and adding more cache. To me that makes more sense for gamers than the direction Intel is taking.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Sorry I meant 23H2; this will be out for Win11 very soon.

https://www.techadvisor.com/article/746304/windows-11-2023-23h2-update-everything-we-know-so-far.html

[pasa]

https://youtu.be/8mmeQ6DGIMY?t=492

shows the story nicely. Didsble all the e cores and avg fps stays same while the 1% low gets bump and 0.1% doubled.

Call me mr confirmation bias, but that was my predistion of the outcome years ago when the idea was introduced. For a nice palette of workloads. Sure, the e cores shine in bumping multicore benchmark values and if all you do is 7zip.

While the OS supposedly reads that info channel and try to do its best to juggle in the scheduler, the software we write very likely partition work to similar size and has only access to a single number of the hardware parallelism. So is actively mislead.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Well you shouldn't see much difference with E cores enabled or disabled if you aren't multitasking and having background apps doing some background processing. Because if handled properly the E-Cores, when enabled would allow the CPU to process background tasks on the E cores in an attempt to not impact your main app/game P Core performance.

So just running the very basics of the OS Core but with background apps and services sitting idle not doing anything and then you just running Steam + Game this is why they wouldn't see much if any difference with E Cores disabled. You're not having them really doing anything

[pasa]

The chart shows massive NEGATIVE difference. Just sitting around idle and only jumping on the "background" BS when actually pops up would not be a problem beyond the money wasted on price. We just grew out of the similar problem connected to HT and now getting into the fire from the frying pen.

[A&A]

And Intel, when they push more cores into the processors, as if they are not enough, they will put more in the 14th generation. There's no way 4 e cores can't handle the most basic background tasks. So what kind of marketing is this supposed to be? 4 e cores and a p core have 5% difference in performance.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Yes but overall it's just the CPU design it shouldn't matter to most users. What does matter and what is true is 13th Gen i7 and i9 have tons of raw performance improvements over 10th / 11th gen

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Rod:

Who updates and games at the same time?

Windows updates in newer windows OS's are (usually but not always) completely automatic. We have very little to almost no control over when Windows updates come and are installed. We could be playing Starfield for 4 hours and suddenly windows updates come in the background and installs while we're playing and we didn't even know the installer was started or running for example. In this instance then Windows would automatically move and place the windows update installer on the e-cores while making sure the game stays on the p-cores and it wouldn't interrupt our gameplay.

[ZAP]

Disable the e-cores and run the p-cores at a static all core frequency above the single core turbo spec, manual oc.

In some games just turning off hyperthreading gives a legit boost.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Ursprungligen skrivet av 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Rod:

Who updates and games at the same time?

Windows updates in newer windows OS's are (usually but not always) completely automatic. We have very little to almost no control over when Windows updates come and are installed. We could be playing Starfield for 4 hours and suddenly windows updates come in the background and installs while we're playing and we didn't even know the installer was started or running for example. In this instance then Windows would automatically move and place the windows update installer on the e-cores while making sure the game stays on the p-cores and it wouldn't interrupt our gameplay.

No it's not just turn it off or pause it. It's up to YOU to configure it. If you are about to load up a game make sure WU is configured not to be able to auto restart. Also enabling Game Mode helps also as this is a Do-Not-Disturb the OS has to stop WU from running in the middle of full screen tasks.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Ursprungligen skrivet av ZAP:

Disable the e-cores and run the p-cores at a static all core frequency above the single core turbo spec, manual oc.

You actually should not ever do this with any modern processor for any reason. We actually do need to allow all modern processors to run with their normal boost methods.

The reason for this is performance. I will try to explain: Let's use the Intel 13900KS as an example. The maximum out-of-the-box clocks for all-core loads for the p-cores for the 13900KS is only 5.4 Ghz. If you ran an all-core clock on this processor's p-cores then you would be limiting all cores to only 5.4 Ghz. But if we let it run it's boost and operate normally then up to 2 cores could run at 6.0 Ghz when playing games. Running a fixed all-core clock on that processor would mean that we would have to sacrifice -600 Mhz for gaming and that's just awful.

Running a manual all-core clock is actually slower and will reduce performance overall for all processes due to the reduced clock speeds vs letting the chips boost normally.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Bad 💀 Motha:

No it's not just turn it off or pause it. It's up to YOU to configure it. If you are about to load up a game make sure WU is configured not to be able to auto restart.

That's why I said "Usually but not always" in my comment above: not everyone knows how to do this or even will spend the time to do this. I would say that the majority of windows users do not ever touch or configure windows updates or even know that they can. I think that most people using Windows just run the game and leave everything in the system running as it normally would and they wouldn't know any different. In that scenario Windows update may run at random at any time.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

I juat disable the Turbo crap and set the Base to run at or above the Turbo. I hate turbo shifting and core parking.

Well if you not to spend the time to configure WinOS for Gaming then that's on you.

After the OS loads up you can go and Stop the Windows Update service and it should remained stopped for the remainder of that session. If you log off/on again or reboot it will come back on its own just as Defender will.

[ZAP]

Ursprungligen skrivet av 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Ursprungligen skrivet av ZAP:

Disable the e-cores and run the p-cores at a static all core frequency above the single core turbo spec, manual oc.

You actually should not ever do this with any modern processor for any reason. We actually do need to allow all modern processors to run with their normal boost methods.

The reason for this is performance. I will try to explain: Let's use the Intel 13900KS as an example. The maximum out-of-the-box clocks for all-core loads for the p-cores for the 13900KS is only 5.4 Ghz. If you ran an all-core clock on this processor's p-cores then you would be limiting all cores to only 5.4 Ghz. But if we let it run it's boost and operate normally then up to 2 cores could run at 6.0 Ghz when playing games. Running a fixed all-core clock on that processor would mean that we would have to sacrifice -600 Mhz for gaming and that's just awful.

Running a manual all-core clock is actually slower and will reduce performance overall for all processes due to the reduced clock speeds vs letting the chips boost normally.

I have legendary (1st place) in all the 3DMarks for my CPU/GPU combination. Please don't talk to me.

[🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Bad 💀 Motha:

I juat disable the Turbo crap and set the Base to run at or above the Turbo. I hate turbo shifting and core parking.

That only works for older processors. Newer processors can not do that. In my example above: The 13900KS can not run at it's turbo speed all the time for all cores. It's not possible and it just can't do it. It's turbo speed is 6.0 Ghz. It can't run 6.0 Ghz on all cores all the time. If anyone wanted to run an all-core clock with the 13900KS they would have to reduce the clock speed below the turbo clocks.

Ursprungligen skrivet av ZAP:

I have legendary (1st place) in all the 3DMarks for my CPU/GPU combination. Please don't talk to me.

Exactly which processor do you have?

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Ursprungligen skrivet av 🦊Λℚ𝓤ΛƑΛᗯҜᔕ🦊:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Bad 💀 Motha:

I juat disable the Turbo crap and set the Base to run at or above the Turbo. I hate turbo shifting and core parking.

That only works for older processors. Newer processors can not do that. In my example above: The 13900KS can not run at it's turbo speed all the time for all cores. It's not possible and it just can't do it. It's turbo speed is 6.0 Ghz. It can't run 6.0 Ghz on all cores all the time. If anyone wanted to run an all-core clock with the 13900KS they would have to reduce the clock speed below the turbo clocks.

Ursprungligen skrivet av ZAP:

I have legendary (1st place) in all the 3DMarks for my CPU/GPU combination. Please don't talk to me.

Exactly which processor do you have?

Yea I mean it's not something everyone can do especially with 13th Gen i7 or i9.

https://skatterbencher.com/2023/01/22/skatterbencher-53-intel-core-i9-13900ks-overclocked-to-6300mhz

Was definitely much easier to do on 9th and 10th gen but then again those also won't run as fast in the end.

[ZAP]

12700k... Windows 10... but also 12600k, 12100F, all have stepping with AVX512. G7400 but first batch with it fused off so the fun ended, but it doesn't matter. As long as the parts aren't what people are benching subambient on it's always legendary... Because I do what people say not to do and score super high, be it benchmark or actual game.