What's the point in e cores?
I understand that e cores are supposed to help with background processes like the OS and other recording applications, but why not just add more regular cores?

These e cores are never used in gaming, are not as fast as regular cores, so I don't see the point?

Surely just adding more p cores will be better at this job? And I think that's the difference we are seeing with Intel and AMD right now. AMD are sticking with lots of regular cores multithreading, and adding more cache. To me that makes more sense for gamers than the direction Intel is taking.
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Affichage des commentaires 16 à 30 sur 80
hawkeye a écrit :
Games don't have many main code threads,
Meanwhile Starfield;
11431 11431 ? 00:00:06 Main 11431 11434 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11442 ? 00:00:00 Starfie:disk$0 11431 11443 ? 00:00:00 Starfie:disk$0 11431 11449 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11467 ? 00:00:00 BSLogWriteThrea 11431 11468 ? 00:00:05 IOManager 11431 11469 ? 00:00:00 TextureManager 11431 11470 ? 00:00:03 FileStreamerCon 11431 11471 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 0 11431 11472 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 1 11431 11473 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 2 11431 11474 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs 3 11431 11475 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 4 11431 11476 ? 00:00:09 BSJobs 5 11431 11477 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 6 11431 11478 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 7 11431 11479 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 8 11431 11480 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 9 11431 11481 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 10 11431 11482 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 11 11431 11483 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 12 11431 11484 ? 00:00:13 BSJobs 13 11431 11485 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 14 11431 11486 ? 00:00:03 BSJobs 15 11431 11487 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 1♥♥♥♥ ? 00:00:04 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11489 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11490 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11491 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11492 ? 00:00:04 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11493 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11494 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11495 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11496 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11497 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11498 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11499 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11500 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11501 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11502 ? 00:00:02 BSJobs-Backgrou 11431 11503 ? 00:00:06 CreationRendere 11431 11504 ? 00:00:04 CreationRendere 11431 11505 ? 00:00:06 CreationRendere 11431 11506 ? 00:00:04 CreationRendere 11431 11507 ? 00:00:04 CreationRendere 11431 11550 ? 00:00:00 Starfie:disk$0 11431 11551 ? 00:00:00 Starfie:disk$0 11431 11552 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11553 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d-disk$ 11431 11554 ? 00:00:00 DeviceLostHandl 11431 11555 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d_fence 11431 11556 ? 00:00:01 vkd3d_queue 11431 11557 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d_fence 11431 11558 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d_queue 11431 11559 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d_fence 11431 11560 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d_queue 11431 11561 ? 00:00:00 SubmitAndPresen 11431 11583 ? 00:00:00 BGS Wwise I/O 11431 11584 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11585 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11586 ? 00:00:00 wine_sechost_de 11431 11587 ? 00:00:00 AK Suspended 11431 11588 ? 00:00:00 Starfield.exe 11431 11591 ? 00:00:00 wine_mmdevapi_n 11431 11594 ? 00:00:00 Main 11431 11595 ? 00:00:00 Main 11431 11597 ? 00:00:00 winepulse_mainl 11431 11599 ? 00:00:00 vkd3d-swapchain 11431 11611 ? 00:00:00 SaveLoad thread 11431 11612 ? 00:00:00 BDKJobThread 11431 11613 ? 00:00:00 BDKJobThread 11431 11614 ? 00:00:00 BDKJobThread 11431 11615 ? 00:00:00 BDKJobThread 11431 11616 ? 00:00:00 BDKUserThread 11431 11623 ? 00:00:00 BDKQueueThread 11431 11624 ? 00:00:00 wine_threadpool 11431 11672 ? 00:00:00 BSJobs 13 11431 11707 ? 00:00:00 Main 11431 11708 ? 00:00:00 Main 11431 11710 ? 00:00:00 wine_wininet_co 11431 11824 ? 00:00:00 WSI swapchain q
_I_ 17 sept. 2023 à 0h28 
PopinFRESH a écrit :

Pretty sure this is incorrect?

You can take a Core i9 that doesn't clock as high and has some defective p-cores and sell it as a Core i7 or a Core i5, yes.

That's because a Core i5 and Core i7 are just lesser clocked, less core count Core i9s.

The p-cores and e-cores, by contrast, are different. One is x86, the other is atom. I don't see how you can "turn one into the other". They are surely designed as e-cores from the start?

Yeah, patently false and incorrect. e-cores come from the Atom lineage of CPU cores which were designed to be low-power high-efficiency cores. Has nothing to do with "silicon lottery". They aren't like a cut-down p-core or anything. They are a different microarcitectures with different instruction set support, hence the need for the scheduler to be good at understanding the difference and scheduling tasks appropriately.

The current e-cores are the Gracemonte microarchitecture[en.wikipedia.org].
The current p-cores are the Golden Cove microarchitecture[en.wikipedia.org]

EDIT: Sorry the above was 12th Gen Intel Core CPUs. 13th Gen is Gracemonte (e-cores) and Raptor Cove (p-cores)
thats the way its been for a long time
they clip off or disable the bad parts

but now they are using chiplets, smaller pieces and putting them together, to build the best cpu bins they can sell
with the correct drivers windows can set background tasks for the slower cores, but still uses buss bandwidth and ram and other resources, that could make it slow down other tasks

if you want to disable the e cores you can do that in bios
Drystoner a écrit :
why not just add more regular cores?
Cost.
PopinFRESH a écrit :
e-cores come from the Atom lineage of CPU cores which were designed to be low-power high-efficiency cores
Who on earth asked for any "e-core" ?
not going to spend money on something that is purposefully made to be low performance... why would I buy that ever ?
_I_ a écrit :
thats the way its been for a long time
they clip off or disable the bad parts

but now they are using chiplets, smaller pieces and putting them together, to build the best cpu bins they can sell
Yes, they'd disabled bad stuff and sold it as a lesser thing. That is a concept.

But it's not what happens here. The e-cores are not p-cores with things missing. They're actually different thing. So you can't make an e-core from a defective p-core.

Intel also currently has monolithic chips still. They're not MCMs (multi chip modules) like AMD has been since Ryzen. Intel will be going to their equivalent of chiplets, called tiles, with the 15th or 16th generation, but they're monolithic for now.
so cool
Drystoner a écrit :
I understand that e cores are supposed to help with background processes like the OS and other recording applications, but why not just add more regular cores?

These e cores are never used in gaming, are not as fast as regular cores, so I don't see the point?

Surely just adding more p cores will be better at this job? And I think that's the difference we are seeing with Intel and AMD right now. AMD are sticking with lots of regular cores multithreading, and adding more cache. To me that makes more sense for gamers than the direction Intel is taking.

CPUs used to be pretty much single core, until it became impractical to improve their speed & performance fast enough. The solution was more cores.
_I_ a écrit :
....
thats the way its been for a long time
they clip off or disable the bad parts

but now they are using chiplets, smaller pieces and putting them together, to build the best cpu bins they can sell
with the correct drivers windows can set background tasks for the slower cores, but still uses buss bandwidth and ram and other resources, that could make it slow down other tasks

if you want to disable the e cores you can do that in bios

You have a completely incorrect understanding of this. Intel CPUs with e-cores are not "chiplets"; which is a term describing a packaging method of mounting multiple processor dies onto a chip package. All of the Intel CPUs with e-cores have been monolithic designs, meaning they are all one die, not multiple "chiplets" on a package. Being able to disable something in BIOS/UEFI doesn't have anything to do with it being a different die; you can also disable hyperthreading / Symmetric Multi-Threading (SMT).

Further fusing off bad silicon is a process to reduce waste and improve yields in manufacturing; that hasn't ever been done as you're suggesting to change the makeup of a compute core. It is a result of engineers designing a scalable architecture so that when there is a defect, they are able to fuse off the corresponding unit where the defect is while retaining the functionality of the remaining units. E.g. making an 8-core die into a 6-core die.

Nebsun a écrit :
PopinFRESH a écrit :
e-cores come from the Atom lineage of CPU cores which were designed to be low-power high-efficiency cores
Who on earth asked for any "e-core" ?
not going to spend money on something that is purposefully made to be low performance... why would I buy that ever ?

Again, because not everything your computer is doing requires, or even really benefits from, high-performance more complex compute cores. This coupled with physics and chemistry being part of reality are why this is done.

There are a plethora of design constraints including thermal, electrical, electromagnetic, and more importantly silicon die space which chip engineers need to design around and make tradeoffs within those constraints. Die space in particular when dealing with a monolithic design is extremely important as we don't have the means to make perfect lithography and defects happen (as noted above). The larger the die, the fewer dies-per-wafer and the higher the likely hood of having a defect within a die; thus reducing the yield. Beyond limitations in die space power and temperature constraints are also another very real limitation. This is why you will see that as core-count increases, the clock speed of those cores decreases (in a monolithic design).

If you can fit 4x e-cores in the same physical die space as 1x p-core, and the power and thermal requirements for those 4x e-cores is less than the 1x p-core, then for a large amount of workloads you will be yielding substantially higher aggregate performance. Which is what the case is here; see the die-block-diagram below.

Raptor Lake CPU Die[en.wikipedia.org]

They are able to fit 16x e-cores in about the same die space as 4x p-cores, and those e-cores are able to operate within a lower power and thermal budget than if they had just replaced them with 4x additional p-cores. Which for a large amount of OS and general purpose tasking will result in substantially better overall performance. You will see AMD implementing this same approach in the near future, just as you will see Intel moving to an MCM package in the near future.

The challenge with this non-homogenious microarchitecture design is that software needs to be aware of the differences between the differing compute resources otherwise you'll end up shoving an process into a core which doesn't support the instruction required by the process. This isn't something new or something Intel invented, and I'd highly suspect you are already "buying that" as you likely have a smart phone that is using an ARM architecture which employs a big.LITTLE design.

...
Intel also currently has monolithic chips still. They're not MCMs (multi chip modules) like AMD has been since Ryzen. Intel will be going to their equivalent of chiplets, called tiles, with the 15th or 16th generation, but they're monolithic for now.

Just for clarity, Intel does already have MCM designs but those are not in the consumer "Core" CPU product line yet (as you've pointed out). Intel plans to move to MCM / Tiles with Meteor Lake which is also 14th Gen (this year). For 14th Gen they are expected to have the desktop CPUs based on Raptor Lake-SR (e.g. the Raptor Lake-S "Refresh"), the mobile/"Ultrabook" CPUs based on Meteor Lake-P, and they are also expected to have a Raptor Lake-PR (e.g. a Raptor Lake-P "Refresh") for low-end and "gaming" portable devices that will also be 14th Gen. With 15th Gen we should see both desktop and mobile move to MCM/Tiles with Arrow Lake-S and Arrow Lake-P. And with 16th Gen improving on the Tile-based designs by moving to a substantially more advanced Foveros 3D stacking for both Lunar Lake-S and Lunar Lake-P designs.
A&A 17 sept. 2023 à 4h15 
Yes one e core is big as 1/4th p core. Having 4 e cores can be faster in parallel processing tasks than 1 p core by a little, but are they REALLY "power efficient"?
Dernière modification de A&A; 17 sept. 2023 à 4h27
_I_ 17 sept. 2023 à 8h56 
are you 100% sure its not the same physical design for all cores?
its super easy for them to disable parts/performance and flag each core as p or e

on paper or diagrams its easy to make them look smaller since more parts on them are not used
_I_ a écrit :
are you 100% sure its not the same physical design for all cores?
its super easy for them to disable parts/performance and flag each core as p or e

on paper or diagrams its easy to make them look smaller since more parts on them are not used
They are different cores, it would be hugely wasteful to build a 20 core CPU and then cut the majority of these cores down to 1/5th of their capacity. It just makes no sense to do such a thing, even during the binning process unless yiels are REALLY bad.
_I_ 17 sept. 2023 à 9h03 
not wasteful if they are actually bad or lower performing

they are dealing with super tiny, errors are way more common than you think
again, not all wafers produce 100% i9 cpus, they also make enough i7/i5/i3/pentium g and laptop cpu

also ones with bad or lower performing igpu get the f with those parts disabled
Dernière modification de _I_; 17 sept. 2023 à 9h05
_I_ a écrit :
are you 100% sure its not the same physical design for all cores?
its super easy for them to disable parts/performance and flag each core as p or e

on paper or diagrams its easy to make them look smaller since more parts on them are not used

I already gave you the links to the Wikis on the different core microartectures and the link to the 13th gen Core i9 die image with the blocks overlayed ontop.

You clearly do not understand how CPUs are made. That isn't an "on paper we make them look smaller", that is an image of the actual CPU die.

Here it is without the blocks overlayed

13900K Die[en.wikipedia.org]
Dernière modification de PopinFRESH; 17 sept. 2023 à 9h16
Dernière modification de nullable; 17 sept. 2023 à 9h47
nullable a écrit :
This might be a better graphic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_Lake#/media/File:Intel_Core_i9-13900K_Labelled_Die_Shot.jpg

Yes, the E-cores aren't crippled P-cores.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracemont_(microarchitecture)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Cove#Raptor_Cove

They e-cores and p-cores are physically different.

I already gave 'em all of those ^ up there ;) lol I linked the one without the block-diagram overlay since they seemed to think "they make them look smaller on paper".

You can clearly see from the die shot that they are two completely different core designs, even if you disregard that we've already pointed out that the e-cores are Gracemonte and the (current 13th gen) p-cores are Raptor Cove.
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Posté le 16 sept. 2023 à 4h33
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