Nvidia — “Fake Frames” is dead!

[Citizen Cook]

In the latest DF video, Nvidia’s Cantanzaro says “Moore's Law is dead. We don't know as a civilisation how to keep turning the crank on traditional ways of doing things. We have to be smarter.
You fundamentally realise you have to be more intelligent about the graphics rendering process. Brute force—let's re-render every frame 120 times a second at 2160p output—that is wasteful because we know that there are a lot of correlations in the output of any rendering process.
We know that there are a lot of opportunities to be smarter, to reuse compute. And then deliver transformational image quality benefits, things like Cyberpunk, that we could never have imagined doing before.
DLSS 3.5 makes Cyberpunk even more beautiful than native rendering. The reason for that is because the AI is able make smarter decisions about how to render the scene than what we knew without AI. I would say that Cyberpunk frames using DLSS and Frame Generation are much realer than traditional graphics frames.
Raster is a bag of fakeness. We get to throw that out and start doing path tracing and actually get real shadows and real reflections. And the only way we do that is by synthesising a lot of pixels with AI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv9SLtojkTU

This is all very interesting. One of the things I thought about is how one earth can AMD compete? They are light years behind Nvidia beyond simple raster performance. You can’t even benchmark because one teams card displays visuals completely differently and achieves frame rate differently.

[lsdninja]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

how one earth can AMD compete?

I know it's not going to play out this way, gamers are going to bend over and spread their cheeks so Jensen can keep reaming them, but I'm kind of hoping it forces AMD to go back to competing on price.

[AmaiAmai]

No one cares about marketing. In reality, the end user will decide what is and is not acceptable with their wallets. Not a Youtube channel. Not Nvidia.

To me, gaming is already dead anyway. 2023 was a bad year for gaming and it's only going to get worse as more and more companies look less at you and more at your wallet.

[ZAP]

Might wanna check Gamers Nexus. Terrible visual glitches and ghosting from all the smoke and mirrors.

Worse than console.

[Tiberius]

What do you mean by we cant benchmark those cards? Standardized test is a thing

[PopinFRESH]

Originally posted by ZAP:

Might wanna check Gamers Nexus. Terrible visual glitches and ghosting from all the smoke and mirrors.

Worse than console.

You might want to go rewatch that GN video. While Steve does point out some of the areas where DLSS3.5 has issues in Cyberpunk (which Alex at DF does as well), he largely said the overall experience is an "at least as good as or better" performance and an overall better image quality; also noting that Patrick (1) thinks so as much as they will choose to use it in their own personal play though of Phantom Liberty.

[Cathulhu]

Originally posted by ZAP:

Might wanna check Gamers Nexus. Terrible visual glitches and ghosting from all the smoke and mirrors.

Worse than console.

Agreed, DLSS/FSR is not the magic bullet that nVidia and AMD wants it to be.

[PopinFRESH]

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡⁧⁧Orange Mint:

dlss is an excuse for badly optimised games when developers can't bother to hire actual programmers

People said the same thing when Hardware T&L was first implemented.

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by Tiberius:

What do you mean by we cant benchmark those cards? Standardized test is a thing

DF recently talked about how standard raster testing is essentially pointless since who on earth would buy an Nvidia card and turn off all these amazing features?

[Citizen Cook]

Originally posted by 󠀡󠀡⁧⁧Orange Mint:

dlss is an excuse for badly optimised games when developers can't bother to hire actual programmers

It’s really not. If you regularly watch DF you’ll learn how awesome and necessary the tech is.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

Originally posted by Tiberius:

What do you mean by we cant benchmark those cards? Standardized test is a thing

DF recently talked about how standard raster testing is essentially pointless since who on earth would buy an Nvidia card and turn off all these amazing features?

Not everyone lives in your alternate universe where every game has dlss support

[Vince ✟]

Originally posted by AmaiAmai:

To me, gaming is already dead anyway. 2023 was a bad year for gaming and it's only going to get worse as more and more companies look less at you and more at your wallet.

While some indie houses and only a couple of major studios still put out the occasional quality game, I tend to agree with this statement. Overall, things have hit a wall of sorts.

I found learning to make games just as fun as playing games, with the work involved a lot like the city builders & factorio-esque styled games I had tried in the past. It can be incredibly frustrating but also very rewarding, especially just learning new things. I like to imagine that even if gaming culture dies back to a point of niche society like it once was in the early 2000s, with all the young'ns giving it up in favor of some bland version of it all, there will always be chance for renaissance and rebirth of what we know to be great. I'm learning things now that maybe 10 or even 15 years from now could possibly be of value in helping add to this, or at least that is the hope.

[ZAP]

Originally posted by PopinFRESH:

Originally posted by ZAP:

Might wanna check Gamers Nexus. Terrible visual glitches and ghosting from all the smoke and mirrors.

Worse than console.

You might want to go rewatch that GN video. While Steve does point out some of the areas where DLSS3.5 has issues in Cyberpunk (which Alex at DF does as well), he largely said the overall experience is an "at least as good as or better" performance and an overall better image quality; also noting that Patrick (1) thinks so as much as they will choose to use it in their own personal play though of Phantom Liberty.

No, I've made an informed decision already so no need.

Deep Learning Mouth Breathing and fake frames are an embarrassment to gaming.

[ZAP]

If you're typing out some term paper or something, again, no need. At least use bullet points to make it readable but really not worth your time overall.

[AbedsBrother]

Thing is, I was always in the "good enough" camp for graphics. Max Payne 2's level of graphical fidelity is all I require of a game, and that was achieved 20 years ago. So all this ray-tracing stuff seems cool and all, but unnecessary. esp now that I've had the chance to try raytracing on a new gpu and it looks good, but when I'm playing a game, and the game is good and pulls me in, I don't care about "omg look at these raytraced lights / shadows / reflections, I'm so much better as a gamer now that I have raytracing!"

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

You fundamentally realise you have to be more intelligent about the graphics rendering process. Brute force—let's re-render every frame 120 times a second at 2160p output—that is wasteful because we know that there are a lot of correlations in the output of any rendering process.
We know that there are a lot of opportunities to be smarter, to reuse compute. And then deliver transformational image quality benefits, things like Cyberpunk, that we could never have imagined doing before.
DLSS 3.5 makes Cyberpunk even more beautiful than native rendering. The reason for that is because the AI is able make smarter decisions about how to render the scene than what we knew without AI. I would say that Cyberpunk frames using DLSS and Frame Generation are much realer than traditional graphics frames.

Hilarious that Nvidia is trying to pitch raster as more fake and raytracing as less wasteful when currently rt produces fewer frames than raster at a higher power draw and their dlss 3 is artificially creating frames.

How many years have we had consumer gpus capable of raytracing? Six years? Ray-tracing has not been the success everyone hoped.

[wesnef]

Originally posted by Citizen Cook:

necessary

Uh huh. Right. /eyeroll


edit: well, if you mean "necessary to do 4k / 120fps / Ultra-uber-stupid-crazy" sure. But none of that is "necessary", either.