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Well, yeah I didn't mean literally a review like you were pitching it to be taken somewhat seriously as a formal review. I was trying to emphasize the actual opinion itself and that it is a long-running negative one as far as the current gpu releases were concerned.
I don't see any reason why you shouldn't have the right to express yourself on here, even if it's a negative/critical one. That isn't really what I'm trying to counter. Especially, because of most of the people here you present your views in a very mature logical way. Some other users might have a point, but the way they say it is almost gibberish at times.
It's what you argue that I think off. I have to stop here because the funny thing is I typed like four different versions of this paragraph and I kept on forgetting where the heck I was even going with it, so I give up for now. But bottom line is yeah, you do have a right to complain. It's just within your actual argument that I was trying to argue against, but I'm getting tired I think and maybe that's why I can't focus.
You are very correct in this and I should tone it down because it probably does come off strong. I think the reason I do that is that since the attacks on Nvidia are SO aggressive and abundant, that me being one of the few that don't see them as villains as everyone else sees them I feel like I have to make my point stronger. So that's why I basically chuck all the blame onto the developers. I didn't think anyone was even listening or it like went in one ear and out the other because everyone was so like mesmerized with Nvidia's bad behavior to really see much else.
Well, in both those situations I think if there was a message the message is that consumers in their market will buy what they're selling and still complain?. I think that's about it and as far as typical businesses go, that's about how it works. The complaining part I would think couldn't care less UNLESS it causes or comes with bad sales. But if people keep buying, that's what the business is about. I think I've actually mentioned before that if anything the complaining strengthens their conviction about prices because of the whole supply and demand thing. I mean the outcries for a lack of product are actually like a reflection of demand. They might be thankful. To where you usually have to do surveys and studies on consumers and target audiences, that information comes to them on a silver platter on Steam, on Reddit on the internet.
Seems like this kind of compliments what I just typed out in the previous paragraph before I read this. But yeah, I agree. I think the way I am though, I try to recognize situations where "saying nothing, is more powerful than saying something" and I do think this is one of them.
I see people complaining (not trying to use it condescendingly) for like literally years since the poor 2xxx series, cryptominers, covid, now this and I just hate to see so many people wasting time arguing about it. Now hey, don't get me wrong if people actually like and enjoy doing that then I get it.
I have yet though to have someone say "Yes, I absolutely love crapping on Nvidia and it makes me feel good and it's worth the time to do it". It just seems like it's happening and people are doing it but don't enjoy doing it but I wonder why they do it if it fixes nothing and solves nothing?. I just wonder.
I just thought about it as I was typing that last paragraph and thought maybe it was a problem with me. Sometimes I actually tell people "don't get me started" because when I start on something negative, I won't stop. So maybe for ME personally the arguing about it is unhealthy but for lots of other people it's like "oh well whatever, we're just talking". But it seems you guys really are mad abut it and when I get mad I get really mad, so I try not to focus on negative situations too much.
I know numbers are important but when I see so many numbers and you guys dissecting and breaking down all this stuff I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees. I feel like the point could be shortened without all the numbers. The thing is I would know how I would need it explained to me, but since I don't understand it and am not the person doing the explaining I can't tell them how to explain it to me. Not sure if that makes sense or I belong in like an insane asylum for coming up with that.
Sometimes I see stuff go on and on for so long with all these details, I almost see it as a pseudo science within this community. I wonder man, some of these guys really know what they're talking about but do they? I mean they sound like experts but they're on Steam instead of working for a gpu company?. Not even you, but some others imp-articular.
Almost like an armchair general explaining why x country is losing the war for all these reasons and what exactly they need to do to win. Or like me watching a soccer game complaining about stuff when I only watch during the World Cup. I'm just like damn, do they really know as much as they say they know or not because if so what a waste of talent.
Yeah, me too. Basically the way I see it is, it's their product. It's not mine until I pay for it. Up until that point, they could have a 7090 ti ready to be put out for $250 and you know what? If I never see it or they want to hold on to it forever I really don't care. That's there business. It's not my business until I pay for it. They owe me nothing and I owe them nothing.
How much???
$269
and around 25% slower than the 4060Ti
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-7600/32.html
The GPU probably doesn't saturate Gen 3 x8 but still a strange choice. Did they save money by going with a narrower interface?
PCIe 3 x8 doesn't seem to slow down RX 6600XT:
https://youtu.be/09S-SVGn30c
Let's hope AMD won't make RX 7500 Gen 4 x4 like they did with the 6500.
They have near free reign on the high end and halo products, So why the rat war with x8 bus? Its the gfx card stalingrad.
Will there even be a *50 tier this generation? Have there been any rumors/announcements?
RTX 3050 is $220
RTX 3060 12 GB is $280 (8 GB version is a bit cheaper)
RTX 3060 Ti is $315
RTX 3070 is $450
The RTX 3050 and RTX 3070 still don't make sense. The RTX 3070 would need to be $350 to $380 at most to have any appeal IMO (and even then I'd personally say it's just a lost cause because $300+ for 8 GB is just a deal breaker IMO, but it probably has too much performance for nVidia to price it there). But still, it's 10% to 15% faster than the RTX 3060 Ti which just went to $315 so no reason that should be over $350 to $380.
The two RTX 3060s are the interesting ones. I'd still take a 6700 XT over the RTX 3060 Ti; reason being that they are comparable in performance and despite the AMD offering actually being slightly more expensive now, it has 12 GB VRAM so it makes it worth it. But it at least puts the RTX 3060 Ti close (just ever so shy away) from where it makes sense. The 8 GB is a concern going forward but you are paying slightly less for it (just not enough less for me to think skipping on the 50% VRAM makes it worth it). Now if it were $280 to $300 it'd be very interesting.
But with the RTX 3060 Ti at $315, where does that put the RTX 4060 Ti? Even worse. Unless nVidia is planning to drop that later too? (my guess is they aren't, which explains the RTX 3070 staying at a poor price, but time will tell.)
But this is an improvement. Shame it's not the more relevant stuff (the RTX 40 series) but alas, it makes what is probably the outgoing old generation somewhat considerable as opposed to so awful it's not even worth looking at (that still applies to the 3050 and 3070, but the 3060s have merit now). Might the 7700 and 7800 series news actually be more than "I feel indifferent" because they're disappointing and just slot in alongside current stuff. Might they shake things up and force price corrections as old RTX 30 supply dries up? I really HOPE the GPU market gets better.
To be fair, nVidia deserves much of the recent backlash (obviously, that's purely my opinion). nVidia is the market leader, and that means for better and worse. The entire GPU market is in sad shape, and has been for a while, but it's especially true for nVidia's offerings (slightly less so now with their price drops to older stuff, but still). When they have 75% to 80% of the market and the modern GPU market is as bad as it is, and they release a lineup that, outside the super expensive flagship, is just so awful in moving price/performance forward, then many of the reasons being given for the backlash is warranted from where I sit.
Especially when that latest lineup is honestly trying to pass off things as a tier higher than they are named, and if you instead say "a name is just a name" (which, it is), and consider that the x90 now means the x80 is the old x70, and so on down the stack, well... that's also a problem because of the pricing. It means what was traditionally an x50 is now being called an x60 but still costing between x60 or even x70 pricing. And if you say "ignore that and focus on price for performance", well... yeah, that's a poor uplift by traditional measures too. Yes, I'm aware of "inflation' and I'm also aware of around how much it has been occurring, and the prices of things (and this is far from just GPUs mind you) is HIGHER than inflation, so inflation alone does not explain it away. It's a distraction. The uplift in value is just not there. The price/performance ratio almost makes it a complimentary generation, not a replacement one, and that is where the frustration is coming from.
Worse, the market has been sorry shape due to the the cryptocurrency boom and the pandemic, so there's a good number of people who would have wanted to upgrade around that time, but couldn't, and now that they CAN, it just feels... awful (at least on nVidia's side). That's part of where my disappointment in nVidia is coming from.
The ultimate reality is nVidia is doing this because AMD isn't able to compete on performance right now. It's allowing nVidia to cut down their offerings and try and see how much they can squeeze out of the moment. Which, is something any company would do, so I don't "think they are a villain". They're being a typical greedy company though, even if it's expected in such a situation. Intel did the same exact thing when they had that same position over AMD in the CPU sector (but I dare say nVidia is being worse about it than Intel was).
Agreed, and yes I said this very thing myself later in the post. Complaining alone doesn't send a message if sales are good.
The good (?) thing is, sales seemingly aren't that great for the RTX 40 series from what I understand, so maybe it will result in something.
The alternative consideration is that maybe nVidia wasn't expecting high sales and that is why they have high prices (even beyond inflation reasoning). They may have factored in the economic times and figured it would mean far less people would have as much disposable income for luxuries, so they probably accounted selling lower in number, and are trying to make up for it by charging more from the remainder of the market that would still buy anyway. That's purely just a thought of mine on what is one possibility though.
But regardless of whether nVidia expected it or not, my impression is that they have indeed been selling rather poorly compared to traditional trends. The RTX 4090 (relative to the fact that it a high end/high price part and traditionally has low volume) is selling well for what it is, but none of the rest of the lineup really has.
nVidia ultimately might not care because they are more concerned with AI and other stuff right now though. I recall both nVidia and AMD posted high outlooks or quarters recently, largely due to the AI and server market, not consumer or gaming market. Again, time will tell. They did just lower prices on a handful of older generation stuff, but that was older generation stuff, and half of the drops didn't mean much.
I can't speak for anyone else. Only myself.
I don't speak poorly nVidia because I enjoy it. I LIKE nVidia's hardware, and I USED to approve of them as a company. My frustration comes in because they have seemingly consistently had poor uplifts in performance for price the last few generations, and the latest generation especially feels like an insult. I'd call it nVidia's worst generation, but the GeForce FX series still takes that spot in my opinion, and the Ada architecture on its own (price and all that aside) actually is an incredible uplift, but only the RTX 4090 really gets to show that. The rest is artificially held back and then pirced high giving it such a poor value, and nVidia can do it to begin with largely because AMD isn't providing enough competition in the form of performance.
As for what it "solves", nothing? People are just sharing thoughts, opinions, or reasons (at times, venting). It's what the forums are for. Negative opinions, or consistently negative ones, aren't some conundrum. nVidia's poor value has been rather consistent lately (at least at the segment of the market I and most buyers shop at; keep in mind many people here skew high end and you see more approval of nVidia from them).
Well the details matter because they are a way to substantiate the opinions being given. Nothing more. Otherwise we're just saying "I think this" without saying why and there's not much value to that.
The discussion on the forums here is typically FAR from that in depth. Sometimes it is (and that's not a bad thing), but usually it's pretty basic.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not intelligent enough to work for a GPU company.
Well, my end game is definitely not to get everyone to love Nvidia or pardon them for wrongdoings but to bring the consensus somewhere where Nvidia is treated fairly compared to other businesses. I don't see other business being demonized like Nvidia.
But hey, I'm a realistic person. In a couple months or years I might very well see what you guys are seeing and be like "damn, those guys were right and I was sitting here telling them the whole time Nvidia wasn't an evil company".
Yeah, that about sums up what I remember everybody else basically saying. I really don't feel sorry for people who want lower priced gpu's (and I'm one of them). I'm serious, I'm actually glad I've been waiting it out with my 2070. I still have it and keep looking for something better but nothing meets my price to performance so I'm kind of just idling right now. But, aside from me and you I think a lot of the people looking for "cheap, good cards" are the kind of people who don't need it because of the circumstances surrounding how they do their upgrades. I said in a post recently in another thread I think that I'm actually glad Nvidia is saving these people from themselves in a way.
Yeah, it's that kind of stuff that I think might actually be the entire problem to begin with. That kind of thinking sets an expectation and in my opinion it doesn't work that way. I mean, wouldn't be much different than saying our time system and calendar setup is solid. The sun could blow up or something can hit earth totally changing things permanently. We designed stuff around reality, not the other way around. Everything is in the present and past. The future is never known. Sure, you could create an educated guess, but accepting the changes should come with it.
I thought about this recently. Kind of proves game developers aren't hungry anymore. If hackers and cryptominers and entrepreneurs wanted to develop good games that ran right on our hardware they would. That's the difference between a need and a want. People working for a company want a check first and everything comes after. It is possible, but people don't have the willingness to do it and developers fit in this group. I understand they can only do so much if it's a job and they only have so much time/hours and they are forced to produce what they're putting out in a given time frame and they can't be bothered outside those restraining factors. But I would only imagine they're eager to say "I can only do so much" while another guy can do a better job but isn't there to do it.
Totally agree with this. This is sensible. This is a moderate attitude and attitude. It puts the blame there but the reason as well and with the reason there. At least you can tell that part. I see people who post the negative but I don't remember every seeing even a hint of understanding on Nvida's part. Or it's so far and in between that the way they come off is like they absolutely loathe Nvidia to an unhealthy degree.
I don't pay attention to sales metrics AT ALL so I am driving blind with anything happening as far as sales and who's buying or not. But, what I am guessing is that Nvidia might recognize that people have the money to buy their products but are like choosing not to and those same people (not you but others) might not even be a viable market audience anyways. My instincts tell me a lot of the people who don't have the money are younger people who just don't have their stuff together and that's really their own fault honestly. I know you're a different situation, so I'm not talking about you.
I think it's almost a loud minority vs a silent majority thing. The people who are supporting Nvidia are putting out a reasonable amount for reasonable performance and gaming. I think to myself how could someone build a gaming pc and then expect to be a gpu (main driving force of games) to be the same price as a cpu when they're a lot faster at doing stuff. CPU's are basically crippled because all the gains they've made with cores and price to performance are useless because a lot of software can't even use all the cores. This might not be a reliable method of comparing what a gpu should cost, but at the moment that's what's going on in my mind.
They way you present things sure. You're reasonably measured in your approach. There are some on here that (from what see) almost amplify this problem in an attempt to bring others onto the same boat and weaponize some news and happenings to a point where it's not enough for them to be upset with Nvidia's offerings but they actually NEED others to be at the same level of disappointment. Even actually telling people to go AMD or what not to buy.
I know the reasons you're outputting all the information. Understandably, it's for comparing the points and using those points as your reasoning as to why Nvidia's performance is so poor. This is common practice and how you're doing it isn't wrong. It's just why it's being done.
Like I said before, I really don't see how a circumstantial historical pattern of price to performance gains should in any way lead to what will come. As an educated guess sure, but nothing more.
I mean, if that were the case we could predict when the next World War will be. Or What size tv screens will be in 2030. I just don't think it should be seen as solid as a mathematical computation where 2+2 WILL equal 4.
At least you admit it. But I'm seeing some do it and they might admit the same thing but how is it that they're not smart enough to work for a gpu company but they are smart enough to tell what they're doing wrong?. And if they are smart enough, why aren't they?.
There's a lot of situations like this. I mean dang, if they were running Nvidia things would be absolutely perfect.
I'm not trying to suppress anybody, just to be clear. Just like you guys are discussing what you think so am I.