7000 Series X3D

[Crawl]

Well they are official now. The only thing that seems a bit odd are the clock speeds on the 7800X3D. I wonder if they are pulling the gpu trick to try and push people to higher tier cpus. Guess we will have to wait on pricing to see.

If the benchmarks look good I guess I will be replacing my 7950X sooner than expected.

[Rod]

Publicado originalmente por A&A:

B550?

CMK32GX5M2D6000Z36 and B650 AM5 i thought i had wrote down B550 but realised when you posted so I checked my list and yea B650 and 7800X3D will be the main build.

[Illusion of Progress]

Publicado originalmente por Crawl:

I'm reading that as they will be doing something on the fly at the OS level, looking at system calls, memory reads, cache hits, etc. to determine which ccd to assign. Trying to keep a database would be so limited that it would almost be pointless in my opinion.

I see. Hm, I wonder how accurate that will work.

I suppose the fallback of assigning things to a user selected core is always there if it doesn't work well in a given case (though does this still need manually done every time after the fact?).

[Rod]

I dont like the ccd design, Its bug bait imo the 7800X3D is best no ccd no worrys. The only way i would buy the 16c would of been if ccd was non existant and you could turn off smt and make it a 16c 16t cpu instead of 16c 32t. You dont need 32 threads its best to disabled them and run the real cores at a higher boost saving energy and relying on the brute force of the 3D cache and 16 cores.


That CCD crap totally puts me off total waste of money. People should play also with SMT off on the 7800X3D and try to see if the real 8 cores will boost higher again real corea and 3D cache are what works best the fake SMT cores in some games actually hinder performance.

[Komarimaru]

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

I dont like the ccd design, Its bug bait imo the 7800X3D is best no ccd no worrys. The only way i would buy the 16c would of been if ccd was non existant and you could turn off smt and make it a 16c 16t cpu instead of 16c 32t. You dont need 32 threads its best to disabled them and run the real cores at a higher boost saving energy and relying on the brute force of the 3D cache and 16 cores.


That CCD crap totally puts me off total waste of money. People should play also with SMT off on the 7800X3D and try to see if the real 8 cores will boost higher again real corea and 3D cache are what works best the fake SMT cores in some games actually hinder performance.

That's generally a myth Gamers Nexus has proven wrong. While sometimes disabling SMT on the high end CPU's can result in higher FPS sometimes, the difference is under 1%.

What we'll see with the X3D models of the high end CPU's from AMD, who knows. But even now with the 5800X3D, the difference between SMT on vs Off? We're talking 2-15 FPS depending on the API, Resolution and game, swinging the advantage back and forth between the two after multiple tests and runs.

Generally, it's under a 1% difference, swinging back and forth between which is favored.

[Rod]

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

I dont like the ccd design, Its bug bait imo the 7800X3D is best no ccd no worrys. The only way i would buy the 16c would of been if ccd was non existant and you could turn off smt and make it a 16c 16t cpu instead of 16c 32t. You dont need 32 threads its best to disabled them and run the real cores at a higher boost saving energy and relying on the brute force of the 3D cache and 16 cores.


That CCD crap totally puts me off total waste of money. People should play also with SMT off on the 7800X3D and try to see if the real 8 cores will boost higher again real corea and 3D cache are what works best the fake SMT cores in some games actually hinder performance.

That's generally a myth Gamers Nexus has proven wrong. While sometimes disabling SMT on the high end CPU's can result in higher FPS sometimes, the difference is under 1%.

What we'll see with the X3D models of the high end CPU's from AMD, who knows. But even now with the 5800X3D, the difference between SMT on vs Off? We're talking 2-15 FPS depending on the API, Resolution and game, swinging the advantage back and forth between the two after multiple tests and runs.

Generally, it's under a 1% difference, swinging back and forth between which is favored.

In Frostbite it was generally a good move to disable SMT. For Warcraft where its mainly just a few cores its a no brainer to disable SMT and let the temps and power use go down. Ill be doing my own testing but i suspect in games that use at most 4 cores disabling smt to boost higher due to reduced power and thermals by ditching 8 fake cores will likely be 15fps minimum. As you can oc them by power curve and PBO getting rid of fake cores that a game can not use is a no brainer. Very few games use more than 8 cores so theres literally no reason to not disable SMT.


Im looking forward to testing and tweaking one to see what gains can be had.

[Komarimaru]

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

That's generally a myth Gamers Nexus has proven wrong. While sometimes disabling SMT on the high end CPU's can result in higher FPS sometimes, the difference is under 1%.

What we'll see with the X3D models of the high end CPU's from AMD, who knows. But even now with the 5800X3D, the difference between SMT on vs Off? We're talking 2-15 FPS depending on the API, Resolution and game, swinging the advantage back and forth between the two after multiple tests and runs.

Generally, it's under a 1% difference, swinging back and forth between which is favored.

In Frostbite it was generally a good move to disable SMT. For Warcraft where its mainly just a few cores its a no brainer to disable SMT and let the temps and power use go down. Ill be doing my own testing but i suspect in games that use at most 4 cores disabling smt to boost higher due to reduced power and thermals by ditching 8 fake cores will likely be 15fps minimum. As you can oc them by power curve and PBO getting rid of fake cores that a game can not use is a no brainer. Very few games use more than 8 cores so theres literally no reason to not disable SMT.


Im looking forward to testing and tweaking one to see what gains can be had.

I'll be blunt, if temps are going down to due disabling the features of your cores, then something is seriously wrong.

SMT off increases temperatures, not reduces them for AMD... SMT is not HT, and never has been. Why? Because SMT off increases the power draw.

You're heavily confusing things, quite a bit... I'd suggest doing some more research into it first.

Edit:

After googling to be sure it wasn't some fluke my end with a 5950X and 5800X3D, even there it confirms my results. SMT Off = Higher Temps due to higher Power Draw since allowed to boost further on stock settings, substantially higher temps of know how to modify the PPT, TDC and EDC for more performance.

[pasa]

Disabling SMT helps the programs that do lot of floating ops (shared between HT core pair so can't run parallel anyway) make proper distribution of work. Splitting to exact amount of slices that is optimal instead of double that and suck up the overhead without gaining progress.

From behavior it seems possible that programs have internal limits to the number of threads and/or some heuristics based on CPUID instead of blindly using the "thread count" number you can query. In that case the program practically disables HT for itself, so disabling it outside has no noticable effect in one way or another. (This still requires the scheduler be at least as smart to prefer scheduling on independent cores first...)

[Illusion of Progress]

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

I dont like the ccd design, Its bug bait imo the 7800X3D is best no ccd no worrys. The only way i would buy the 16c would of been if ccd was non existant and you could turn off smt and make it a 16c 16t cpu instead of 16c 32t. You dont need 32 threads its best to disabled them and run the real cores at a higher boost saving energy and relying on the brute force of the 3D cache and 16 cores.


That CCD crap totally puts me off total waste of money. People should play also with SMT off on the 7800X3D and try to see if the real 8 cores will boost higher again real corea and 3D cache are what works best the fake SMT cores in some games actually hinder performance.

Monolithic chips are less and less being as feasible, though, so don't expect to see this change. Instead expect to see the inverse happen as it has been. AMD is now making GPUs like this, and Intel is going to be going this route with CPUs now (they are calling them "tiles").

It's not like most people need Ryzen 9s anyway (I feel like even my 3700X isn't necessary most of the time) so most people won't have to worry about it anyway. The six and eight core products are one CCD (and it's still not truly monolithic). By time games actually have a real reason to go for above 8 cores, we'll probably see more cores per CCD.

SMT and Hyper-threading can be disabled if you so choose.

At least it's not as bad as the Core 2 Quads could sometimes be. They were actually a pair of Core 2 Duos on one package and had to communicate through the FSB between one another, similar to the situation with AMD CPUs with multiple CCDs of today, but those would sometimes a substantial decrease as a result.

[GOD RAYS ON ULTRA™]

I want them to release a 7300 x3d. I'm making a collection of CPU that cater more to my personal liking.

I'm currently making a collection so far with fx-9590, Ryzen 1200af, Ryzen 3300x, Ryzen 5300g.

To add to my collection a 7300g or 7300 x3d, or even both!

[Rod]

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

In Frostbite it was generally a good move to disable SMT. For Warcraft where its mainly just a few cores its a no brainer to disable SMT and let the temps and power use go down. Ill be doing my own testing but i suspect in games that use at most 4 cores disabling smt to boost higher due to reduced power and thermals by ditching 8 fake cores will likely be 15fps minimum. As you can oc them by power curve and PBO getting rid of fake cores that a game can not use is a no brainer. Very few games use more than 8 cores so theres literally no reason to not disable SMT.


Im looking forward to testing and tweaking one to see what gains can be had.

I'll be blunt, if temps are going down to due disabling the features of your cores, then something is seriously wrong.

SMT off increases temperatures, not reduces them for AMD... SMT is not HT, and never has been. Why? Because SMT off increases the power draw.

You're heavily confusing things, quite a bit... I'd suggest doing some more research into it first.

Edit:

After googling to be sure it wasn't some fluke my end with a 5950X and 5800X3D, even there it confirms my results. SMT Off = Higher Temps due to higher Power Draw since allowed to boost further on stock settings, substantially higher temps of know how to modify the PPT, TDC and EDC for more performance.

Lol thats what i said, SMT off gets rid of unused fake threads and reduces cpu temps... thus the cpu can boost more on the real cores which then raises the temps eventually. So in the end you end up with higher temps with smt off as the real cores are now boosting more and thus being worked harder by a game and thus higher fps.

Im not confused at all i understand exactly the process. Warcraft and total war is the ideal example smt on will hurt your fps as the game wants less than 6 cores which boost high and love cache. Thus getting rid of fake threads is the best thing you can do. These games eould thrive on a 7600X3D with SMT off it would br the best setup and i play those games most.

[A&A]

Technically, SMT/HT maximizes the efficiency of each core, allowing the core and the processor as a whole to reach their full performance potential, this is why the tempeture is higher. Also these programs that are not using multi-threading and they are processor-intensive tasks (like video encoding), of course it can cause stutters or fps drops in games due the additional thread, a connection between the front end and the execution unit.

I agree that switching between two threads for a single core can cause a drop in а single core performance because of the higher latency, but it is like ≈1% which is not a big deal when you recive a benefit from this with additional 20% in multi-core for a 2-5% increase in chip size

[Rod]

Publicado originalmente por A&A:

Technically, SMT maximizes the efficiency of each core, allowing the core and the processor as a whole to reach their full performance potential, this is why the tempeture is higher. Also these programs that are not using multi-threading and they are processor-intensive tasks (like video encoding), of course it can cause stutters or fps drops in games due the additional thread, a connection between the front end and the execution unit.

I agree that switching between two threads for a single core can cause a drop in а single core performance because of the higher latency, but it is like ≈1%

People have said in Warzone disabling SMT makes the framerate go from 160 to 200 if a game isnt properly multithreaded then its a loss not a gain. Theres many examples Total War Warcraft Warzone threads only help when the game can see them so above 8 threads is generally wasted most games cant fully use more than 8 cores so how do they use 16 threads?

Gamersnexus charts shows SMT0 topping the charts. The pecking order is generally Frequency then cache then cores and then threads or sometimes cache frequency cores and then threads. So if you can boost the first two at a loss of the fourth then to me thats obviously the best thing to do.

***If the game cant support 16 cores/threads that is****

[A&A]

I explained what SMT is. The only thing I can give as advice is to separate a few cores for Windows processes and other programs, and the rest for gaming by setting CPU affinity.

If l am not wrong, Ryzen 9s 7000 series, the cache memory is separated, which is a good thing and a bad thing in the same time.


I don't think Warzone is a great example for comperison, because l am skeptical for the quality of their programmers (coz there are a lot of bugs as l know), but ok.
CS:GO is a good example, where HT can be a good and a bad thing.

[Komarimaru]

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

I'll be blunt, if temps are going down to due disabling the features of your cores, then something is seriously wrong.

SMT off increases temperatures, not reduces them for AMD... SMT is not HT, and never has been. Why? Because SMT off increases the power draw.

You're heavily confusing things, quite a bit... I'd suggest doing some more research into it first.

Edit:

After googling to be sure it wasn't some fluke my end with a 5950X and 5800X3D, even there it confirms my results. SMT Off = Higher Temps due to higher Power Draw since allowed to boost further on stock settings, substantially higher temps of know how to modify the PPT, TDC and EDC for more performance.

Lol thats what i said, SMT off gets rid of unused fake threads and reduces cpu temps... thus the cpu can boost more on the real cores which then raises the temps eventually. So in the end you end up with higher temps with smt off as the real cores are now boosting more and thus being worked harder by a game and thus higher fps.

Im not confused at all i understand exactly the process. Warcraft and total war is the ideal example smt on will hurt your fps as the game wants less than 6 cores which boost high and love cache. Thus getting rid of fake threads is the best thing you can do. These games eould thrive on a 7600X3D with SMT off it would br the best setup and i play those games most.

For AMD there isn't fake threads. You're thinking Intel.

For example, the way HT works on Intel is they hug threads together to be more efficient and drag them to one core. AMD has two pipline sets. The main ALU and the secondary one, offloading lighter loads to the secondary.

So, basically you're increasing power and load on the main ALU, even at idle. Test it yourself if on AMD Ryzen 3000 series and higher. Idle and load temps will increase with SMT off, while vastly reducing the multicore performance.

Prime example, 31k result in Cinebench 23 with SMT on, 22k with it off. FPS gain with SMT off, less than 1%, and not often, and generally only in older games like DX9-DX11. DX12 titles FPS is lost with SMT disabled, like in Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider-Man etc. Where as Intel gets a nice boost, since as mentioned before HT is more of a grouping of threads to a core, where as AMD offloads to lesser pipelines. Two different forms of efficiency.

[Rod]

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

Publicado originalmente por Rodders:

Lol thats what i said, SMT off gets rid of unused fake threads and reduces cpu temps... thus the cpu can boost more on the real cores which then raises the temps eventually. So in the end you end up with higher temps with smt off as the real cores are now boosting more and thus being worked harder by a game and thus higher fps.

Im not confused at all i understand exactly the process. Warcraft and total war is the ideal example smt on will hurt your fps as the game wants less than 6 cores which boost high and love cache. Thus getting rid of fake threads is the best thing you can do. These games eould thrive on a 7600X3D with SMT off it would br the best setup and i play those games most.

For AMD there isn't fake threads. You're thinking Intel.

For example, the way HT works on Intel is they hug threads together to be more efficient and drag them to one core. AMD has two pipline sets. The main ALU and the secondary one, offloading lighter loads to the secondary.

So, basically you're increasing power and load on the main ALU, even at idle. Test it yourself if on AMD Ryzen 3000 series and higher. Idle and load temps will increase with SMT off, while vastly reducing the multicore performance.

Prime example, 31k result in Cinebench 23 with SMT on, 22k with it off. FPS gain with SMT off, less than 1%, and not often, and generally only in older games like DX9-DX11. DX12 titles FPS is lost with SMT disabled, like in Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider-Man etc. Where as Intel gets a nice boost, since as mentioned before HT is more of a grouping of threads to a core, where as AMD offloads to lesser pipelines. Two different forms of efficiency.

I did think they were the same tech, So if you disable smt on a 7800x3d or 5800x3d does it still remain a 8c16t cpu? Obviously the HT Intel cpu would go from 8c 16t to 8c 8t but AMD?