Nvidia's performance vs price nonsense

[Iggy Wolf]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/vendor-confirms-rtx-4070-ti-is-a-resurrected-rtx-4080-12gb

Seems to me like Nvidia want to upsell cards for a higher price than what people get in actual performance. As if the actual 4080 card nonsense wasn't bad enough, it looks like they want to brand a 4060 or 4060 Ti as a 4070 Ti, despite its specs not being higher than what the 3060 achieved this generation. What the hell are they smoking?

While I wouldn't normally compare Nvidia to Ford, it'd be like if Ford decided to price their Ford Focus for $100K. Naturally, consumers would be like "WTF are you smoking Ford?" People expect to pay high prices for HIGH PERFORMANCE. These are GPUs with a practical function, not a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Rolox watch where the only difference is what it's made of, not it's ability to tell time better.

Nvidia might not want to treat it's gamers as "dirty poor peasants" as if somehow they're Ferrari or Lamborghini and therefore don't consider mainstream consumers as their "customers". At least the former actually give you better performance per price ratio. And if they ARE going to adopt that attitude, they shouldn't be surprised if people jump ship to AMD.

After all, apparently, only the scalpers/miners and RICH people are the only "customers" that are going to matter to them. Maybe the 4090 is worth the price it's charged for (just as the Titan at the time was worth the $1K), but that doesn't explain the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ market manipulation and deceptive marketing tactics to upsell and oversell lower tier cards for ridiculous MSRP.

[Pocahawtness]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Iggy Wolf:

Yeah, but that was also during a pandemic and when cards were constantly out of stock due to scalpers and miners. People were probably thankful if they could get their hands on ANY card. You could say plenty of people didn't care about scalper prices, and those people would be considered impatient or simply have more money than sense.

But that doesn't mean the average gamer demonstrates a willingness to overpay just because scalpers took advantage. The consoles were also being scalped, and yet Sony and Microsoft aren't offering new consoles at $700 or $900 just because scalpers sold them for as much.

Only Nvidia seems to think people will accept scalper prices as an MSRP just because SOME were willing to pay that. They're not Rolex. They're not Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, or BMW. Whales alone can't sell GPUs. But it's apparently whales that are the only customers they seem to care about.

I think you are right. People knew there were other factors driving the prices high so they played along, but now there is no excuse. Now it's just greed on the part of NVIDIA.

Graphics cards used to be a cost effective upgrade that anyone could do, and people often did every few years. Not any more. Not at these prices. AMD aren't much better either, really, I'm afraid we have to get used to the fact the upgrades are no longer an affordable option.

[r.linder]

They've been working up to this for a long time. x80 cards are no longer worth less than 1000$ to them and based on their reaction to outrage, it's not going to change anytime soon unless they're completely boycotted, which will never happen because there's always going to be people that refuse to use other alternatives.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Yes but you have to figure in that they left breathing room between the 4080 16GB and 4090 to allow for a 4080 Ti. However, with the old 4080 12GB being turned into what will be called 4070. There isn't any room for a 4070 Ti.

As far as prices goes... well the old excuse was COVID impact production as well as shipment stalls/delays... now the new excuse is a recession. With higher costs for manufacturing as well as higher pay to workers. Much of the higher manufacturing costs is mainly due to stricter rules towards manufacturing plants in terms of their carbon footprint, waste and also water usage. These higher restrictions make it so they can only produce but so many products like GPUs within a given period. The end result is higher costs to produce less products.

However if AMD is able to release bang for buck this could force NVIDIA to better on their prices, or face facts that more people will simply go with an AMD GPU when in need of s GPU. Especially if their budget simply can't allow for say a 1200-2400$ to be spent on just a graphics card alone. The 4090 for example are mostly being scalped now. Going for around 2200$ USD minimum

This is simply a new trend and will continue because now that pretty much anyone can sell on Amazon or Newegg for example, people will continue to buy up products when new or on-sale. Then re-sell them back online again for higher prices. It is a growing side hustle for sure.

We've dealt with that for years, on places like Ebay. But now with only a small # of GPUs being made for each model, there aren't enough of a given popular model to go around.

[Crawl]

I find the whole price performance thing a bunch of bs. If people truly cared about price performance they'd be buying an AMD or Intel gpu but they aren't instead they are crying about Nvidia's pricing. Look at all the people who are waiting for the 7900 cards to launch, most don't actually want to buy a 7900 they are just hoping Nvidia will lower the price of the 4080 so they can buy that card cheaper. Nvidia knows they have advantages in rasterization, ray tracing, encoders, performance scaling at higher resolutions, etc. and they price their cards accordingly. I'd love to see AMD level the playing field but they aren't there yet and probably wont be any time soon.

[r.linder]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crawl:

I find the whole price performance thing a bunch of bs. If people truly cared about price performance they'd be buying an AMD or Intel gpu but they aren't instead they are crying about Nvidia's pricing. Look at all the people who are waiting for the 7900 cards to launch, most don't actually want to buy a 7900 they are just hoping Nvidia will lower the price of the 4080 so they can buy that card cheaper. Nvidia knows they have advantages in rasterization, ray tracing, encoders, performance scaling at higher resolutions, etc. and they price their cards accordingly. I'd love to see AMD level the playing field but they aren't there yet and probably wont be any time soon.

If what AMD claimed is true with the 7900-XTX being around 70% faster than the 6950-XT, then it would put it right around the 4080

But that's still a 30~40% gap between it and the 4090

[Iggy Wolf]

God, I wish AMD would name their cards better. Maybe it's because I never kept up with them, but knowing what cards are what gen is hard when it's constantly random numbers thrown as round. Same deal with their CPUs, which are only slightly better in that department.

With Nvidia, you know which tier it is because it's only a 10 number difference. And 1 number difference for a generation. I wouldn't even know what generation and tier AMD is for theirs right now. I know that at least their Ryzen CPUs are 3, 5, 7, and 9, much like Intel's i3, i5, i7, and i9. But then the numbers that follow get confusing again.

[emoticorpse]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Iggy Wolf:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von emoticorpse:

I don't know man. I think at this point there are a lot of people who enjoy the drama with these pricing g inconsistencies and all that.

From what I noticed it all started with the 2000 series. The people complaining back then are the same people complaining now. They said 2xxx series wasnt much of a step up so they trashed it and stuck with the 1xxx series they had. Then when the 3xxx came out they complained they couldn't get one and the prices. Now with the 4xxx series they are on the prices again. I think some people just get a kick out of discussing and venting about the hardware meanwhile there are people who would be happier than a pig in mud, to have a 2070 or something.

I kind of get it. I am the same way about politics, but maybe they should reflect a bit and wonder if maybe they are complaining a bit too much and should actually focus on actual gaming because life is short.

I don't dount YouTubers help the situation by joining in on the complaints, but that's their job. Whatever it takes to get views and people love it when their reviews align with their own

I've said this before and I will say it again, there is an entire library that current cards can run perfectly fine and even currently released games that can still run good on older cards but for the couple of triple a games, they get forgotten about as if they don't exist.

I really don't think Nvidia owes anybody a 4k 144 hz gaming experience and especially at a budget price.

I am not trying to troll anyone either or be a contrarian, I just think this much hate over a trivial piece of hardware is unwarranted.

Difference is that the 2000 series still had reasonable prices for the lower end. People might have felt the cards weren't much of an upgrade over the 1000 series in terms of raw performance at the high end, but that doesn't mean you couldn't get a budget GPU for a reasonable price. The 2060 Super went for $400 MSRP.

The 2070 was roughly $500 or $600. The 2080 was around $800 and only the 2080 Ti got up to $1000 if not $1200. But generally speaking, they kept the MSRP of the GPUs below $1K except for the flagship top tier. Now, the 4090 is immediately $1600 and the 4080 is $1200 despite it not commanding THAT much of a performance vs price ratio. Gotta wonder what the 4070 and 4060 will be then.

I mean, if they price the 4060 at $700 or $800, that's NOT "budget" prices. But I bet you the card's performance will still be "budget". And they what? Expect people to be thankful for overpaying on a weak and budget value card?! They can't even be bothered to be honest about the 4070 Ti who's performance doesn't exceed a last gen 3060 Ti.

They're essentially crippling the lower end to make the higher end more appealing, to force people to pay more. Rebranding them a tier higher than they are doesn't change that, and if anything, comes off deceptive. At least the 20 series introduced tensor cores and RTX, even if raw performance wasn't that much better than the 10 series. And they didn't cost an an arm and a leg.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Illusion of Progress:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bad 💀 Motha:

But them taking the 4080 12GB and labeling it as a 4070 is a proper correction. It's not taking a lower performance gpu and slapping a higher model on it.

It's not proper still, and yes they are still doing that.

Look at chip size and CUDA core count. The gap between the RTX 4080 and RTX 4090 is MASSIVE. This isn't merely a technical only thing because the performance mimics this. The gap between the RTX 3080 and RTX 3090 is miniscule by comparison.

Simply put, the RTX 4080 is in between an x70 and x70 Ti tier product, and the former RTX 4080/new RTX 4070 Ti was/is an x60 Ti/Super tier product at best.

So, no, both products are still one tier too high in name honestly. They're getting THAT much performance out of chips so cut down because the RTX 40 series just has THAT much performance potential.

This is a business tactic that sometimes works. When you want to push a boundary, push it farther than you actually want to, so that if you are required to scale back how far you're pushing it, you're still pushing it as far as you actually wanted to.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von emoticorpse:

From what I noticed it all started with the 2000 series. The people complaining back then are the same people complaining now. They said 2xxx series wasnt much of a step up so they trashed it and stuck with the 1xxx series they had. Then when the 3xxx came out they complained they couldn't get one and the prices. Now with the 4xxx series they are on the prices again. I think some people just get a kick out of discussing and venting about the hardware

Or... the price to performance, at the mid-range especially, has just been pathetic after Pascal?

The RTX 2000 series would have hardly been worth upgrading to for most people on Pascal even if it WAS a good value because it wouldn't have represented a big enough gain for non-enthusiasts to consider, and the GPU market was silly for most of the RTX 30 series life. I'll agree that's it been better as of late, but not great (AMD has better value throughout the entire product stack, and nVidia's lower end are still mediocre values), and the RTX 40 series are insanley expensive.

So, yeah, it's as you pointed out. People are complaining about prices because of... the prices (more specifically, the worsening price for performance in conjunction with rising overall prices). Sometimes the simplest answer is the sensical one.

The fact that enthusiasts often forget is that most people aren't enthusiasts who buy for the thrill, nor do they even keep track of this stuff regularly. They tend to upgrade only when they need to and will then research it then, and Pascal has largely been holding up for many people. For those it hasn't been, they either already upgraded, or they're not financially well off and they are the ones you see complaining. For goodness sake, the GTX 1650 was what displaced the GTX 1060 combined listing in the hardware survey. Most people DON'T have as much money to throw around, ergo the complaining or prices and poor price to performance.

Also, outside of the heavier games (though this will change in the coming years as requirements go up with a new generation of game engines), games have less and less been needing high end hardware to have a nice looking experience, and honestly this is true even for many triple A games. The exception is if you're playing at higher resolution and chasing higher frame rates. Take a look at the hardware survey and you can see most, by FAR, are only using 1080p.

I still don't blame Nvidia, even if they are acting like jerks. I remember I was one of the few (don't remember who else) people who started suggesting left and right the 6500 XT when it came out from AMD because it was just what we needed and I saw it as a perfect opportunity for AMD to stand out and get some support for putting up a fight against scalpers and even Nvidia.

But while I was praising the card, I noticed most everyone else still stomp on it over a negligible (if there even was any) performance decrease because of pcie 3.0 vs 4.0 or whatever if I remember correctly. They still kept saying "wait for Nvidia 3050". I just shook my head every time I read that and moved on.

Even now AMD's current high end cards are very competitive and I would have easily jumped on it if it weren't for Nvenc, but I realize that's my own personal choice and if I happen to get a Nvidia card it's not them squeezing money out of me, it's my own decision to spend more and get something for that money that AMD doesn't offer.

I have given up on AMD getting support from enthusiasts at this point. They might as well not even try and I don't blame them if they don't, I just appreciate what's out.

[xSOSxHawkens]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bad 💀 Motha:

This is simply a new trend and will continue because now that pretty much anyone can sell on Amazon or Newegg for example, people will continue to buy up products when new or on-sale. Then re-sell them back online again for higher prices. It is a growing side hustle for sure..

I would have agreed with you but not now. Not in the states. Not after this tax teason...

Used to be you had to conduct over 20K is sales or over 200 transactions before it triggered IRS reporting.

Now its 600 bucks or a single transaction.

Every. Single. Scalper. Every one.

Will either have to pay taxes on each card sold or face tax evasion, and their earnings will be reported if they do anything other than craigslist cash sales and facebook market place cash only or the likes. Anyone trying to be a scalper now has to face tax costs on top of it, just another layer adding to making it not worth doing.

[skOsH♥]

They've hooked a wide base of consumers who either are enamored by Ray tracing and also think it's " the way it's meant to be played", and then there are the crypto miners, who seem to prefer nvidia cards...they also think they can only experience ray tracing with nvidia cards. Well...not anymore.

That's probably why they cost so much. I expect them to fall in price to match amd plus people will likely flock to amd. Chiplets on a gpu...scrumptious. rnda3. High rasterization. Still can do ray tracing. $200 less. Nearly matches the performance of nvidia card a tier above (rtx 4090).

Is $1000 (7900XTX). Still a lot of money, but it's not like, what, $1500? Plus with 355w instead of 450w, your power bill will be about 30% cheaper.

[Crawl]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von xSOSxHawkens:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bad 💀 Motha:

This is simply a new trend and will continue because now that pretty much anyone can sell on Amazon or Newegg for example, people will continue to buy up products when new or on-sale. Then re-sell them back online again for higher prices. It is a growing side hustle for sure..

I would have agreed with you but not now. Not in the states. Not after this tax teason...

Used to be you had to conduct over 20K is sales or over 200 transactions before it triggered IRS reporting.

Now its 600 bucks or a single transaction.

Every. Single. Scalper. Every one.

Will either have to pay taxes on each card sold or face tax evasion, and their earnings will be reported if they do anything other than craigslist cash sales and facebook market place cash only or the likes. Anyone trying to be a scalper now has to face tax costs on top of it, just another layer adding to making it not worth doing.

I would happily pay taxes on sales if I could make 50%+ profit and all I have to do is ship a box. Not to mention if you do it from your home I'm sure you could be writing off part of your rent/mortgage, utilities, etc as business expenses.

[skOsH♥]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crawl:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von xSOSxHawkens:

I would have agreed with you but not now. Not in the states. Not after this tax teason...

Used to be you had to conduct over 20K is sales or over 200 transactions before it triggered IRS reporting.

Now its 600 bucks or a single transaction.

Every. Single. Scalper. Every one.

Will either have to pay taxes on each card sold or face tax evasion, and their earnings will be reported if they do anything other than craigslist cash sales and facebook market place cash only or the likes. Anyone trying to be a scalper now has to face tax costs on top of it, just another layer adding to making it not worth doing.

I would happily pay taxes on sales if I could make 50%+ profit and all I have to do is ship a box. Not to mention if you do it from your home I'm sure you could be writing off part of your rent/mortgage, utilities, etc as business expenses.

Why not do it with your tech parts you no longer use?

I think it seems reasonable. Also to pre-build someone a computer or yeah, find a really good deal on something below msrp and then sell for slightly above msrp. Make sure you're making profit even after shipping

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von xSOSxHawkens:

Now its 600 bucks or a single transaction.

They made it in line with lottery/gambling winnings reporting. Pretty fair and took them forever to do it.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crawl:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von xSOSxHawkens:

I would have agreed with you but not now. Not in the states. Not after this tax teason...

Used to be you had to conduct over 20K is sales or over 200 transactions before it triggered IRS reporting.

Now its 600 bucks or a single transaction.

Every. Single. Scalper. Every one.

Will either have to pay taxes on each card sold or face tax evasion, and their earnings will be reported if they do anything other than craigslist cash sales and facebook market place cash only or the likes. Anyone trying to be a scalper now has to face tax costs on top of it, just another layer adding to making it not worth doing.

I would happily pay taxes on sales if I could make 50%+ profit and all I have to do is ship a box. Not to mention if you do it from your home I'm sure you could be writing off part of your rent/mortgage, utilities, etc as business expenses.

No, you'd have to actually register yourself as a Business for that to become an option to you. You can't just do that because you sit at home and happen to sell lets say thousands of $ in "stuff" online. It doesn't work that way.

[Crawl]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bad 💀 Motha:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crawl:

I would happily pay taxes on sales if I could make 50%+ profit and all I have to do is ship a box. Not to mention if you do it from your home I'm sure you could be writing off part of your rent/mortgage, utilities, etc as business expenses.

No, you'd have to actually register yourself as a Business for that to become an option to you. You can't just do that because you sit at home and happen to sell lets say thousands of $ in "stuff" online. It doesn't work that way.

Ok, you make it sound like registering a business is some limiting factor. Anyone with 5 minutes and $50 (fee in my area) can do it. If you can't duck the taxes any more there isn't really a reason not to.

[emoticorpse]

I just thought of something and don't want to sound too overly critical, but hear me out.

Is demand a thing? if so would "demand" include opinions of the people communicated? for example would Nvidia be scraping these threads to see what people want and what they're waiting for and factor that in to how much they think their gpus are in demand?

If so then this is the thing. Nvidia is always in crazy demand here. For a long time, I've heard people say "wait for 2xxx", "wait for 3xxx", then "wait for 4xxx". And I would have to assume that's one reason why a lot of people avoid AMD, waiting for Nvidia?. And if AMD does the same thing, they'll see that everyone is waiting for AMD. So they'll have to do something to draw more people back in "lower prices?". Then when Nvidia sees people are being tempted the other direction, they have to do something to get them back (or at least draw them away from AMD). This may happen as people seem to STILL be waiting for the right thing from Nvidia to come along?. This might be the first generation where that won't happen because up to this point I don't see anyone saying "wait for 5xxx" series. And so up to now seems like AMD has a real shot at getting people to go their way. But I imagine that's when Nvidia will present 5xxx series stuff and people again will say "wait for 5xxx".

This might be the most obvious thing ever, but I just kind of noticed how it works right now (if I'm even correct).