pc gaming is a hobby some say.......................

[Lone Wolf]

But now i would say its a privilege The cost new parts I.E gfx cards and so on.
Used parts are selling at silly cash as well

Thoughts

[Azza ☠]

Gaming is a hobby...

Any hobby tends to cost money and can even make money with it going up in price. A hobby could even be riding around in a sports car, you expect to make a lost, but over time might become more expensive. Money isn't the factor though, rather the enjoyment of it.

[Illusion of Progress]

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

My estimates may be wrong. I rushed that estimate admittedly. I didn't really see it as important for the point I was trying to make, but it helps the point I was trying to make. I was kind of exaggerating when I implied a lot of people upgrade every year. But even if people for the most part do upgrade more conservatively (every two years? three years?), then that's even less of a reason to be be angry at prices. You only need to spend a grand every two or three years. And the difference between two and three makes a big difference when we're trying to analyze how much per period a person is spending that money. So if a person were seriously to say they can't afford to spend a thousand every five years? but didn't have an issue spending $500 every five years?.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't spend a grand every two or three years on a GPU (not even half that). And, even if you presume people were spending $500 and having no problems, where does the reasoning come in that 200% of that is no different? Who calls a 200% difference nothing?

Most of the people upset at pricing aren't those that regularly upgrade, or those who spend as much. Most of the people upset are those on GPUs a couple of generations old (or more) like something around the performance of the GTX 1060s and lower. Obviously people who just upgraded beforehand and are set for a couple or few years will have less reason to be bothered by pricing.

The entire reason PC gaming grew as broad as it has is because is became more accessible with lower costs. GPUs themselves have been a growing, and now evolving (with mining) sector, however, so we're sort of seeing costs go up again now. There's naturally going to be feedback in response to that.

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

I know I'll sound like a jerk to many for saying this, but a lot of people dug themselves into this hole. I myself got a 2070 when they came out, and suggested anyone wanting an upgrade to get one with the 2xxx series. Too many people played the waiting game because a lot of people told them to wait for 3xxx series. They listened to the wrong people and here they are. Those people need to accept the decision they made.

Hindsight is 20/20 though. This is sort of blaming people for not seeing a serious jump in GPU pricing at the turn of the year. With the prices the RTX 3000 series was set to retail for, I don't think making the decision to wait for better performance at the same price (or the same performance for a cheaper price) is something you can rule out as an obviously bad choice, since that's how progress is made and what tends to happen with each generation. This time was one of the exceptions.

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

I really don't see a huge problem where everybody else sees one. I can understand if they needed a new car and now a $5000 car is double, or houses doubled in price, or something like that. But these are GPU's that first off are trivial items for entertainment and secondly because they're not that expensive to begin with.

Agreed; they are a indeed luxury item and it's worth remembering that, and I do think most people do that, despite complaining for desires of lower prices (for most of us, a luxury is what they are anyway; to investors using them for larger scale Etherium operations, they are more an investment of livelihood and not only a mere luxury).

Expense is a matter is relativity. If you don't find them expensive, then you probably weren't buying near the bottom or maybe not even mid-range to begin with. The people who were buying at those ranges, however, were more likely to be enabled into PC gaming that might not otherwise be. To see MSRP going up, and then street price being double or triple that MSRP, is not just a mere setback everyone will be able to deal with (and then with other setbacks, and other prices raising on a lot of things, it gets compounded). It's going to force people either away from the higher range of PC gaming, or perhaps indefinitely out of upgrading. All I'm saying is it's incredibly unrealistic to expect everyone to have known this was coming, and to be able/willing to absorb it.

Carlsberg eredeti hozzászólása:

Overseer eredeti hozzászólása:

Car manufacturers don't have enough chips. Stove and refrigerator manufacturers don't have enough chips.

My local supermarket has lots, i got two bags,... eating one right now.

Well, there's our problem!

[emoticorpse]

Illusion of Progress eredeti hozzászólása:

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

My estimates may be wrong. I rushed that estimate admittedly. I didn't really see it as important for the point I was trying to make, but it helps the point I was trying to make. I was kind of exaggerating when I implied a lot of people upgrade every year. But even if people for the most part do upgrade more conservatively (every two years? three years?), then that's even less of a reason to be be angry at prices. You only need to spend a grand every two or three years. And the difference between two and three makes a big difference when we're trying to analyze how much per period a person is spending that money. So if a person were seriously to say they can't afford to spend a thousand every five years? but didn't have an issue spending $500 every five years?.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't spend a grand every two or three years on a GPU (not even half that). And, even if you presume people were spending $500 and having no problems, where does the reasoning come in that 200% of that is no different? Who calls a 200% difference nothing?

Most of the people upset at pricing aren't those that regularly upgrade, or those who spend as much. Most of the people upset are those on GPUs a couple of generations old (or more) like something around the performance of the GTX 1060s and lower. Obviously people who just upgraded beforehand and are set for a couple or few years will have less reason to be bothered by pricing.

The entire reason PC gaming grew as broad as it has is because is became more accessible with lower costs. GPUs themselves have been a growing, and now evolving (with mining) sector, however, so we're sort of seeing costs go up again now. There's naturally going to be feedback in response to that.

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

I know I'll sound like a jerk to many for saying this, but a lot of people dug themselves into this hole. I myself got a 2070 when they came out, and suggested anyone wanting an upgrade to get one with the 2xxx series. Too many people played the waiting game because a lot of people told them to wait for 3xxx series. They listened to the wrong people and here they are. Those people need to accept the decision they made.

Hindsight is 20/20 though. This is sort of blaming people for not seeing a serious jump in GPU pricing at the turn of the year. With the prices the RTX 3000 series was set to retail for, I don't think making the decision to wait for better performance at the same price (or the same performance for a cheaper price) is something you can rule out as an obviously bad choice, since that's how progress is made and what tends to happen with each generation. This time was one of the exceptions.

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

I really don't see a huge problem where everybody else sees one. I can understand if they needed a new car and now a $5000 car is double, or houses doubled in price, or something like that. But these are GPU's that first off are trivial items for entertainment and secondly because they're not that expensive to begin with.

Agreed; they are a indeed luxury item and it's worth remembering that, and I do think most people do that, despite complaining for desires of lower prices (for most of us, a luxury is what they are anyway; to investors using them for larger scale Etherium operations, they are more an investment of livelihood and not only a mere luxury).

Expense is a matter is relativity. If you don't find them expensive, then you probably weren't buying near the bottom or maybe not even mid-range to begin with. The people who were buying at those ranges, however, were more likely to be enabled into PC gaming that might not otherwise be. To see MSRP going up, and then street price being double or triple that MSRP, is not just a mere setback everyone will be able to deal with (and then with other setbacks, and other prices raising on a lot of things, it gets compounded). It's going to force people either away from the higher range of PC gaming, or perhaps indefinitely out of upgrading. All I'm saying is it's incredibly unrealistic to expect everyone to have known this was coming, and to be able/willing to absorb it.

Carlsberg eredeti hozzászólása:

My local supermarket has lots, i got two bags,... eating one right now.

Well, there's our problem!

The way I see it 200% of $500 is pretty much nothing to an adult with their stuff pretty much together. It's like saying 200% of $10 is mind blowingly expensive because it's 200%. I know $500 to $1,500 isn't really chump change, but I can't see how it isn't easy to scrape up that money and sacrifice from something else for a little bit if you're a functioning adult. Or I can see how that might be tough, but can't see how that can be tough AND you're still pre-occupied about pc gaming instead of worrying about your next rent/mortgage payment. Just get a console if that's the case. And people complaining of a 200% jump in price that isn't worth it, can't talk if they just throw money into a build when it comes to their CPU and coolers and motherboards for an overclock that gets them barely anything and all of a sudden become budget friendly when it comes to GPU?. I know the costs of those parts don't come close to the cost of a GPU alone nowadays, but if we're looking at percentages a lot of people can shave 50% off their cost by going with cheaper/lower performing parts that are almost just as good.

I personally think PC gaming grew like it has mainly due to Steam, not because of the pricing of hardware. Pretty sure everyone knows console gaming is the absolute cheaper option, and those people nowadays even through this who still like gaming on pc are still paying the higher prices they they don't like.

I know you can't predict the future, but you can plan for uncertainty. Mining isn't new, fluctuations in prices/numbers isn't rare. Bitcoin mining/price has been notoriously unstable for a while now. Them using gpu's for it isn't new either. I won't deny Covid was.

I always end up finishing things up a certain way and the way would be this. Let's say up until this GPU fiasco, you couldn't predict it would happen. So from today moving forward could you not predict it can happen again?. Or will it happen again and every says "damn, no way in hell we could have seen this coming. Screw Nvidia.......again."

[Worldzworstgamer]

Hopefully the gaming market crash comes soon just like in the 80's. We need a reset on all this. The cost of video cards has been absurd since the RTX 2000 series. Honestly I am getting tired of telling people I know that there is nothing out there for them unless they luck into someone not looking to rip people off. Honestly the way to go now is console gaming.

[Talby]

very true considering the pricing these days with AAA gaming titles and the latest tech - however there are plenty of low-spec and historical games that are still viable... a couple of examples:

- dug out my old Pentium MMX with a Tyan Titan Turbo ATX-2 and 64gb ram a few years back (basement cleanup), booted up debian linux via PXE (not much choice with that old HW lol), the first thing I did was load up the BSD games package and I was playing trek as well as several other console games (literally dozens in that package), good nostalgia. Of course the wife yelled at me to keep cleaning :)

- was on a train on the US eastern seaboard recently, on top of the 12h trip it broke down for another 6h and all I had was my lowly A10-4600M laptop with 6gb ram, luckily I had my phone to tether and was able to download Fallout 3 and some mods - barely noticed the time and had quite an audience behind me watching as I played

Was glad to grab a 2600x and a 5700xt pre-covid, going to have to last me a good while until pricing becomes somewhat normal, hopefully in a few years will see...

[nullable]

It's expensive, hopefully that costs is temporary. But two years on to price bubbles and supply shortages and it feel like it could just be the new normal. Maybe my next PC won't have an 80 series GPU.

I was happy running decent midrange cards for like 18 years.

[[N]ebsun]

It will be at least another 2 years before prices start to come back down again - IF they ever do.

[Illusion of Progress]

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

The way I see it 200% of $500 is pretty much nothing to an adult with their stuff pretty much together. It's like saying 200% of $10 is mind blowingly expensive because it's 200%. I know $500 to $1,500 isn't really chump change, but I can't see how it isn't easy to scrape up that money and sacrifice from something else for a little bit if you're a functioning adult. Or I can see how that might be tough, but can't see how that can be tough AND you're still pre-occupied about pc gaming instead of worrying about your next rent/mortgage payment. Just get a console if that's the case. And people complaining of a 200% jump in price that isn't worth it, can't talk if they just throw money into a build when it comes to their CPU and coolers and motherboards for an overclock that gets them barely anything and all of a sudden become budget friendly when it comes to GPU?. I know the costs of those parts don't come close to the cost of a GPU alone nowadays, but if we're looking at percentages a lot of people can shave 50% off their cost by going with cheaper/lower performing parts that are almost just as good.

I personally think PC gaming grew like it has mainly due to Steam, not because of the pricing of hardware. Pretty sure everyone knows console gaming is the absolute cheaper option, and those people nowadays even through this who still like gaming on pc are still paying the higher prices they they don't like.

I know you can't predict the future, but you can plan for uncertainty. Mining isn't new, fluctuations in prices/numbers isn't rare. Bitcoin mining/price has been notoriously unstable for a while now. Them using gpu's for it isn't new either. I won't deny Covid was.

I always end up finishing things up a certain way and the way would be this. Let's say up until this GPU fiasco, you couldn't predict it would happen. So from today moving forward could you not predict it can happen again?. Or will it happen again and every says "damn, no way in hell we could have seen this coming. Screw Nvidia.......again."

You're sort of more and more reasoning that budgeting takes care of rising costs and that's a discussion all on it's own (budgeting), but no I ultimately disagree. Rising costs are rising costs and suggesting to budget around it actually means to cut back (our out) on what you can't afford, not that it would instantly get people the things they want. Which... is what I'm saying.

As for costs of GPUs compared to costs of other parts, there's a lot to unpack there. For one, yes this is Steam which is a gaming community but most people use PCs for things other than solely gaming (even within this community, but there's a wider PC community beyond this one). Additionally, GPUs typically have less longevity before requiring an upgrade than other parts do, especially as of late with how long CPUs have been lasting due to slowing advancements from them. And yet, singularly, GPUs are still the single part that costs more over time, and that was true before the recent price explosion, let alone now. Most were okay with that, given how important the GPU is for gaming performance, but it's not so simple to say "cut back on the rest of your PC to make room for GPU budget". That's not always possible, and may be detrimental long-term as well.

Also, I have to emphasize my disagreement with your dismissal of such large cost increases. You're woefully unaware of how price sensitive certain markets and segments withing certain markets can be. My father worked with a business owner of a restaurant years and years ago, and the stories I'd heard of how even the smallest (sometimes down to cents) price differences carried big impacts were enlightening. Obviously, $10 is $10 so 200% of that is $20, but where are we talking $10 or $20 increases? This is a product that, by and large, largely double to tripled in going price since the beginning of the year (to say nothing of MSRP going up before all of this since the RTX series initially became a thing). You really seem to underestimating how big of an impact this is having on some people. And if something does only cost $10 total, for it to be $20 instead, yes, that's still a massive difference for it, even if $10 alone isn't much.

And no, I don't think this is nVidia's (or AMD's) fault (unless they were to have a hand in driving Ehterium demand, anyway). They are making record profits in the current market situation, but it's not their fault. Demand is just that high so pricing followed.

[Viking2121]

Eh, used market is still alright of mid range stuff, you still get them people thinking their stuff is worth gold, But then again, i've never been the one to buy the latest and greatest, im always a gen or 2 behind, the newest thing I have is the 5800x, and I bought my x570 motherboard used, only because the 2700x and the 3700x was at most $50 cheaper, and used was no better if not more.

[GOD RAYS ON ULTRA™]

GUNSMOKE999 eredeti hozzászólása:

Thoughts

I think the prices have stayed too high for too long and this is the new norm unfortunately. SSDs seem to be getting cheaper. Maybe it will balance out so only graphics are expensive, but motherboards and PSUs are getting cheap along with other pc parts.

I noticed EVGA raised their prices a bit. I think manufacturers want the price hikes to stay so they can maximize profit at our expense because they know we want it. They know we are getting impatient.

Of course if everyone can have more discipline over their money and just not buy, the manufacturers will be forced to lower prices. That's why I only buy GPUs from EVGAs queue system. That way you don't pay a scalper.

Let the scalpers sit on their inventory and only buy from reputable site that's willing to sell fair. Even if you are a rich person.

There's two things I'm avoiding right now:

1) a scalped console

2) a scalped gpu.

I can afford one, even two-three. But I'm not buying it. I want to see the scalper sweat every time he/she looks at the inventory and nothing's sold. I want a month, two months, three months to go by with no scalper inventory moved. Could you imagine the panic if a scalper couldn't get rid of their inventory. Same GPUs sitting there month after month, maybe even a year goes by; doesn't matter because you're not buying, I'm not buying- no one is buying it/them.

It would be extra amusing if it didn't stop there and scalpers couldn't move a GPU even at msrp. Wow that would funny indeed. That type of amusement would be worth going without PC parts. Imagine, they couldn't even sell them at msrp because everyone is just so done with scalpers.. we just don't care. How would you like them apples?

[emoticorpse]

Illusion of Progress eredeti hozzászólása:

emoticorpse eredeti hozzászólása:

The way I see it 200% of $500 is pretty much nothing to an adult with their stuff pretty much together. It's like saying 200% of $10 is mind blowingly expensive because it's 200%. I know $500 to $1,500 isn't really chump change, but I can't see how it isn't easy to scrape up that money and sacrifice from something else for a little bit if you're a functioning adult. Or I can see how that might be tough, but can't see how that can be tough AND you're still pre-occupied about pc gaming instead of worrying about your next rent/mortgage payment. Just get a console if that's the case. And people complaining of a 200% jump in price that isn't worth it, can't talk if they just throw money into a build when it comes to their CPU and coolers and motherboards for an overclock that gets them barely anything and all of a sudden become budget friendly when it comes to GPU?. I know the costs of those parts don't come close to the cost of a GPU alone nowadays, but if we're looking at percentages a lot of people can shave 50% off their cost by going with cheaper/lower performing parts that are almost just as good.

I personally think PC gaming grew like it has mainly due to Steam, not because of the pricing of hardware. Pretty sure everyone knows console gaming is the absolute cheaper option, and those people nowadays even through this who still like gaming on pc are still paying the higher prices they they don't like.

I know you can't predict the future, but you can plan for uncertainty. Mining isn't new, fluctuations in prices/numbers isn't rare. Bitcoin mining/price has been notoriously unstable for a while now. Them using gpu's for it isn't new either. I won't deny Covid was.

I always end up finishing things up a certain way and the way would be this. Let's say up until this GPU fiasco, you couldn't predict it would happen. So from today moving forward could you not predict it can happen again?. Or will it happen again and every says "damn, no way in hell we could have seen this coming. Screw Nvidia.......again."

You're sort of more and more reasoning that budgeting takes care of rising costs and that's a discussion all on it's own (budgeting), but no I ultimately disagree. Rising costs are rising costs and suggesting to budget around it actually means to cut back (our out) on what you can't afford, not that it would instantly get people the things they want. Which... is what I'm saying.

As for costs of GPUs compared to costs of other parts, there's a lot to unpack there. For one, yes this is Steam which is a gaming community but most people use PCs for things other than solely gaming (even within this community, but there's a wider PC community beyond this one). Additionally, GPUs typically have less longevity before requiring an upgrade than other parts do, especially as of late with how long CPUs have been lasting due to slowing advancements from them. And yet, singularly, GPUs are still the single part that costs more over time, and that was true before the recent price explosion, let alone now. Most were okay with that, given how important the GPU is for gaming performance, but it's not so simple to say "cut back on the rest of your PC to make room for GPU budget". That's not always possible, and may be detrimental long-term as well.

Also, I have to emphasize my disagreement with your dismissal of such large cost increases. You're woefully unaware of how price sensitive certain markets and segments withing certain markets can be. My father worked with a business owner of a restaurant years and years ago, and the stories I'd heard of how even the smallest (sometimes down to cents) price differences carried big impacts were enlightening. Obviously, $10 is $10 so 200% of that is $20, but where are we talking $10 or $20 increases? This is a product that, by and large, largely double to tripled in going price since the beginning of the year (to say nothing of MSRP going up before all of this since the RTX series initially became a thing). You really seem to underestimating how big of an impact this is having on some people. And if something does only cost $10 total, for it to be $20 instead, yes, that's still a massive difference for it, even if $10 alone isn't much.

And no, I don't think this is nVidia's (or AMD's) fault (unless they were to have a hand in driving Ehterium demand, anyway). They are making record profits in the current market situation, but it's not their fault. Demand is just that high so pricing followed.

You make good points. I agree with them all really even though I'm still kind of contradicting them. I'm aware that in a sense I am dismissive of the price increase. It's not that I don't mind the price jump. I guess maybe it is that I have a 2070 and it isn't really my problem yet because I was probably going to skip this generation anyways, so it's not hitting me hard enough to make me pissed.

But I am far from rich, and I suppose I see it as "if I can afford it, than anyone can", because I'm not THAT well off. I'm not priviledged and it'd be pretty funny to learn that I'm part of "priviledged" society simply because I can afford a gpu at it's current price. Priviledged to me is a lot of other things that cost a lot more. And calling it a priviledge is crazy for the prices they are. Cars cost more, houses cost more so logically if you have a car or a house or a couple tv's in your house but can't afford a new GPU then are you not priviledged?.

As far as the communities thing, I was talking about the gaming community only, but to bring in the entire PC community would be out of the scope of what I was implying because the gaming community exclusively was what I was talking about.

I'd disagree with GPU's having shorter longevity than other pc components. I think they're equal if not have longer longevity than other parts. GPU's can play the games released at their time just as well ten years later and can play for the most part the entire library of games older than their release which actually breathes more life into every GPU series released (people just don't appreciate older games, and I can't say that's not their own fault). And logically it's funny to say they're spending a grand or more on a GPU to only play a handful of games that just released is more proof that they're mismanaging their money and choosing a hobby they don't really like. Playing just a couple new games and ignoring the whole world of previously released ones is a poorly chosen hobby.

I don't like the price increases, even though I suppose I can see how people would think I'm dismissing them as "acceptable" or "non-concerning" or shoot even defending them to a degree which isn't really what I'm trying to do. I just think they're only problems for people looking for problems. Keep your current card, mush on and maybe replay some games for a bit, or lower some settings. Or maybe it's because I don't game all that much. If so I guess yeah, I just can't really connect with how much a real gamer who spends a lot of time gaming does. I'll chalk it up to that because if I'm wrong, I won't know it and that might be a reasonable answer of how. And also you do sound one of the more intelligent people on this forum, so I really respect your point of view and how you present things.

[Illusion of Progress]

I don't think it's that people don't appreciate older titles (though I also agree with you that they are underappreciated at times, if that makes sense). But if you think about it in terms of what spurs a GPU upgrade desire, it's usually not going to be to play stuff you already play very well because you're already enjoying them well enough. It's likely going to be because you want more performance for those falling below that, which of is often represented most by newer games as the average demand goes up over time.

The part about "not being rich, so if I can afford it, I expect anyone can" is an easy one to fall into. I'd consider myself lower on that than many of the regulars of this discussion forum, but even I try and avoid that thinking, probably because I've had friends and acquaintances who are below me in how much they demand from their experience and/or will spend on it. If you have a relatively recent gaming PC, and I don't mean something that'd be considered upper end by an enthusiast relative to today's offerings, but simply something within the last few generations that can at least play most titles okay enough (which still mostly includes my increasingly aging GTX 1060, if barely), then you're already in a rather decent spot. This isn't to say you have no reason to want more, as enthusiasts especially absolutely do, but the average gamer usually won't so a lot of people might don't have the performance offered by the latest couple generations of x70 and x80 tier cards. So those people are more likely in need of more performance. And, if you think of it as a percentage of how much this impacts the wider spending budget for your PC (and not just the GPU), it's even more of an impact to low to mid-range spenders.

But ultimately I'm just saying that when something doubles or triples in price, and the "price floor for decent performance" (granted, this is very subjective) goes up drastically, it's natural to expect some pushback and that people will have to sit it out because they can't afford it (or simply refuse to sometimes).

As for pricing, the days of $250 getting the sweet spot of a good, mid-range GPU seem over. Between RTX (on nVidia's side) taking over as the new baseline and requiring increased costs, inflation, tariffs, supply chain issues, etc., then even stripping away the on and off mining demands, I don't see it entirely going back down to the pricing we saw before the RTX generations. But I don't expect the current, nearly twice that (the "better" mid-range card is 20% shy of being twice that) to become the new normal either, at least not long term, and at least not without huge impacts to the gaming market. Hopefully in a year, supply is a bit better and the Etherium demand has fallen off the cliff it deserves to and we at least have good availability with better value offerings. So I'm sticking to my earlier stance of writing this generation off and hoping for improvements to the next, but I'm not expecting anything in particular either (hope for the best but expect the worst, as they say).