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[calluM]

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[calluM]

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

Originally posted by calluM:

Also read that SSDs shouldn't be defragged, so I probably won't at all, or if they can only do it once every few months. Whenever I'm not at college or work I'm probably going to be on the pc, probably for 8-12 hours a day sometimes.

Does windows know that SSD shouldn't be defragged, or do you need to disable it manually?

Windows Disk Defrag tells you whether your drive is a HDD or SSD and optimises the defragger for whichever decide you're defragger, atleast thats what I've read from here[www.howtogeek.com]

Idk if disk defragger can be disabled, and if it can it's probably less effort to just not use it than disable it

[Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism]

Originally posted by calluM:

What's the lifespan of an nVME SSD, specifically a 970 Evo 500GB? Can't find the answer online. Ive bought this to house the operating system, steam and a few games.

The warranty cover 5 years or 300 TB written. So overwritten 600 times. If your games was 100 GB each and you didn't rote at it for other purposes then 3000 installs. Now your machine will write at it some but you unlikely have to worry and if it was 1 TB with 600 TBW on it even less so.

Likely you won't write 300 TB to it in 5 years though it is possible of course.
Also I guess you could be unlucky and some cell could break before what do I know but it could also last longer than that just that you won't get a new one for free if it does.

[Omega]

Originally posted by calluM:

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

Does windows know that SSD shouldn't be defragged, or do you need to disable it manually?

Windows Disk Defrag tells you whether your drive is a HDD or SSD and optimises the defragger for whichever decide you're defragger, atleast thats what I've read from here[www.howtogeek.com]

Idk if disk defragger can be disabled, and if it can it's probably less effort to just not use it than disable it

Windows 10 doesn't have a tool called defragger, it's called Optimize Drives.

If you open Optimize Drives you will see that it tells you if a drive is an SSD or HDD. On HDDs it will report the amount of defragmentation in percentages and for SSDs it instead tell you when for the last time it was TRIMMed.

Windows 10 does NOT defrag HDDs. When you "optimize" a SSD using Windows it will instead sent it a TRIM command.

[Ad Hominem]

Originally posted by Omega:

Windows 10 does NOT defrag HDDs. When you "optimize" a SSD using Windows it will instead sent it a TRIM command.

What does Windows 10 do to HDD if it doesn't defrag them? Did you mean that it will not defrag SSD, and instead will TRIM them? What the hell is TRIM anyway?

[AustrAlien2010]

I don't know anything about specific brands. But I've been using an SSD for almost 10 years. And it's still working. I haven't noticed any difference from day 1.

Off-topic:
You don't have to defrag an SSD. Data isn't stored on a disc, remember? So it can't get fragmented. It would not make sense.

[~SOK-Da Black Russian Guy ~]

Originally posted by tacoshy:

Originally posted by Brockenstein:

Well the author of the techreport article must have been rolling 20's when he picked all those drives, because even the drives that failed early blew paste that 500TB mark you imagine for the 970 evo.

he sued the pro drives ... not evo, youc an even clearly see it as it ahs a red not a white square on the front. the pro drievs are for high TBW which is the main difference between Pro and Evo.

That Brockenstein, Guy is just a troll, helping no one istead of confusing them lol,

[calluM]

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

Originally posted by Omega:

Windows 10 does NOT defrag HDDs. When you "optimize" a SSD using Windows it will instead sent it a TRIM command.

What does Windows 10 do to HDD if it doesn't defrag them? Did you mean that it will not defrag SSD, and instead will TRIM them? What the hell is TRIM anyway?

I think TRIM is where it just writes over used data, instead of deleting data as that uses a cycle. TRIM is supposed to be good for SSDs in the long run

[Ad Hominem]

Originally posted by AustrAlien2010:

Off-topic:
You don't have to defrag an SSD. Data isn't stored on a disc, remember? It would not make sense.

I was doing a little reading on the topic as this thread got me curious.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRealAndCompleteStoryDoesWindowsDefragmentYourSSD.aspx

according to this guy's blog he talked to Windows devs about the auto disk optimization stuff built into windows and if they just blindly try to defrag SSDs.

Long story short is that Windows does not just blindly defrag SSDs, but it will defrag them once a month if system restore feature is enabled in windows. Apparently SSDs can get fragmented, but it has more to do with the the metadata than a traditional HDD.

 Storage Optimizer will defrag an SSD once a month if volume snapshots are enabled. This is by design and necessary due to slow volsnap copy on write performance on fragmented SSD volumes. It’s also somewhat of a misconception that fragmentation is not a problem on SSDs. If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file. Furthermore, more file fragments means more metadata to process while reading/writing a file, which can lead to slower performance. 

Also on this blog, TRIM has to do with freeing up space on a SSD that has been marked for deletion, as the SSD doesn't really know what space is used and what is free (or something like that, this memory controller stuff is going over my head mostly).

SSDs also have the concept of TRIM. While TRIM (retrim) is a separate concept from fragmentation, it is still handled by the Windows Storage Optimizer subsystem and the schedule is managed by the same UI from the User's perspective. TRIM is a way for SSDs to mark data blocks as being not in use. Writing to empty blocks on an SSD is faster that writing to blocks in use as those need to be erased before writing to them again. SSDs internally work very differently from traditional hard drives and don't usually know what sectors are in use and what is free space. Deleting something means marking it as not in use. TRIM lets the operating system notify the SSD that a page is no longer in use and this hint gives the SSD more information which results in fewer writes, and theoretically longer operating life. 

At the end of the day windows isn't just blindly burning up read/writes on a SSD by trying to defrag them. It will defrag once a month if system restore is enabled, but mostly when the optimizer runs it just runs a TRIM on SSDs.

[Omega]

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

Originally posted by Omega:

Windows 10 does NOT defrag HDDs. When you "optimize" a SSD using Windows it will instead sent it a TRIM command.

What does Windows 10 do to HDD if it doesn't defrag them? Did you mean that it will not defrag SSD, and instead will TRIM them? What the hell is TRIM anyway?

It will defrag HDDs, but not SSDs.

Optimize Drives does whatever is propriate for te drive in question. Windows runs Optimize Drives automatically in the background, it doesn't require tweaking by the user.

[AustrAlien2010]

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

Originally posted by AustrAlien2010:

Off-topic:
You don't have to defrag an SSD. Data isn't stored on a disc, remember? It would not make sense.

I was doing a little reading on the topic as this thread got me curious.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRealAndCompleteStoryDoesWindowsDefragmentYourSSD.aspx

according to this guy's blog he talked to Windows devs about the auto disk optimization stuff built into windows and if they just blindly try to defrag SSDs.

Long story short is that Windows does not just blindly defrag SSDs, but it will defrag them once a month if system restore feature is enabled in windows. Apparently SSDs can get fragmented, but it has more to do with the the metadata than a traditional HDD.

 Storage Optimizer will defrag an SSD once a month if volume snapshots are enabled. This is by design and necessary due to slow volsnap copy on write performance on fragmented SSD volumes. It’s also somewhat of a misconception that fragmentation is not a problem on SSDs. If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file. Furthermore, more file fragments means more metadata to process while reading/writing a file, which can lead to slower performance. 

How I came to understand it; fragmentation will only occur on a disk. And the parts that read the data, have to "collect" the data (based on their location stored in the file system), which composes a complete file. Defragmenting it, will have all that data put together, so there is less movement needed to read the data.
An SSD uses chips. So there are no moving parts. I can imagine not all the chips are able to be read simultaneous, so maybe it gets organized on that level.

[Ad Hominem]

Originally posted by AustrAlien2010:

How I came to understand it; fragmentation will only occur on a disk. And the parts that read the data, have to "collect" the data, which contains a complete file. Defragmenting it, will have all that data put together, so there is less movement needed to read the data.
An SSD uses chips. So there are no moving parts. I can imagine not all the chips are able to be read simultaneous, so maybe it gets organized on that level.

Yea, I had no idea either. I know fragmentation of a SSD cannot mean in the same physical sense that it means for a HDD, where the bits of information are physically in different locations on the HDD platter, so the disk has to spin around and read different locations since there is no spinning platter in a SSD. But maybe if parts of a file are located on different NAND memory modules, the controller has to keep a record of where they all are, and there is a limit to how much it can remember? Or something like that?

Additionally, there is a maximum level of fragmentation that the file system can handle. Fragmentation has long been considered as primarily a performance issue with traditional hard drives. When a disk gets fragmented, a singular file can exist in pieces in different locations on a physical drive. That physical drive then needs to seek around collecting pieces of the file and that takes extra time.

This kind of fragmentation still happens on SSDs, even though their performance characteristics are very different. The file systems metadata keeps track of fragments and can only keep track of so many. Defragmentation in cases like this is not only useful, but absolutely needed.

[Omega]

Originally posted by calluM:

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

What does Windows 10 do to HDD if it doesn't defrag them? Did you mean that it will not defrag SSD, and instead will TRIM them? What the hell is TRIM anyway?

I think TRIM is where it just writes over used data, instead of deleting data as that uses a cycle. TRIM is supposed to be good for SSDs in the long run

Cheap, modern, pretty, multilayered SSDs can't delete a single bit, they have to wipe a whole block and rewrite all the data on it. When you delete something it's only marked as empty by the OS but the data is still there until trimmed.

When writing to a portion of the SSD which is marked as "empty" but actually has data in it the SSD will first have to TRIM that whole block, rewrite the old data and add the new. This hurts performance.

Originally posted by AustrAlien2010:

Originally posted by Ad Hominem:

I was doing a little reading on the topic as this thread got me curious.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRealAndCompleteStoryDoesWindowsDefragmentYourSSD.aspx

according to this guy's blog he talked to Windows devs about the auto disk optimization stuff built into windows and if they just blindly try to defrag SSDs.

Long story short is that Windows does not just blindly defrag SSDs, but it will defrag them once a month if system restore feature is enabled in windows. Apparently SSDs can get fragmented, but it has more to do with the the metadata than a traditional HDD.

 Storage Optimizer will defrag an SSD once a month if volume snapshots are enabled. This is by design and necessary due to slow volsnap copy on write performance on fragmented SSD volumes. It’s also somewhat of a misconception that fragmentation is not a problem on SSDs. If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file. Furthermore, more file fragments means more metadata to process while reading/writing a file, which can lead to slower performance. 

How I came to understand it; fragmentation will only occur on a disk. And the parts that read the data, have to "collect" the data, which composes a complete file. Defragmenting it, will have all that data put together, so there is less movement needed to read the data.
An SSD uses chips. So there are no moving parts. I can imagine not all the chips are able to be read simultaneous, so maybe it gets organized on that level.

No organisation of the data is done on the SSD (Unless the OS or file system is stupid). Neither a HDD nor SSD can read from multiple points at the same time. It doesn't matter to the SSD where the data is, it doesn't have to a spin a disk and move a read arm in to place to access the data. The SSD can grab the data whenever it's needed instantly, there is very little idle time on SSDs. HDDs have a lot of idle time where it's just waiting for the disk and arm to move in to position, and like you said; the more fragmentation on the HDD the more the disk and arm have to move which hurts performance significantly due to tons of idle time.

[Ad Hominem]

Well I learned something today.

[Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism]

Random page claim TRIM is two things.
1) The ability to remove a single page rather than .. whatever it was called, cluster? of data.
2) Deleting no longer used data in advance so that when you want to write there no deletion has to be made but rather it can write straight away.

That the later make it faster I can understand. Well the former too if that actually happen (assuming the page is a smaller data unit than what it would delete and write over otherwise.)

[mgg1959]

hI, I GOT A synology ds918+ nas with 2 evo plus of 250GB as cache, both died at the same moment in 13 months, nas says ssd cache drives in critical status, look in the capture http://prntscr.com/pv5bzv and https://prnt.sc/pv5cch , power on 7816 hours
my luck is that amazon has return me the money, maybe i got more luck with the new 500gb pro of the same kind and brand