Why aren't there today any really good joysticks anymore?

[Flightcontrol]

All,

With this article I would like to express a dissatisfaction regarding the todays available joysticks on the market. Today I see the market saturated with "controllers", which I understand those come in handy for a lot of games, but some some, Joysticks are the choice. And for some reason, the largest pheripheral hardware manufacturers are just not investing anymore in "real good" joysticks.

Since my youth I am a "flight simulation" enthousiast. Now being 46, i find someting really disturbing: there simply aren't any good joysticks anymore on the market, or, they are too expensive while still missing key functions ... But to be honest, some come really close to the ideal ... And yup, some new joysticks find a new life regularly by some renowed hardware suppliers, but, for some reason they are not implementing anymore some of the great features that we used to appreciate in the 1990s...

The most important criterias I would apply in the evaluation for a good joystick is:

• Force Feedbck on the stick and optionally on the throttle / pedals.
  
• Have all the required buttons for aiming, targetting, engine management and other functions.
  
• Analogue slew hats on the stick, for precise, controlled and fluent camera movement and target acquisition.
  
• Rudder by twisting the stick. Or using pedals.
  
• Analogue handlers to apply engine thrust.
  
• Lights. Buttons, switches could have light configuration through color or intensity.

And some criteria handling the stick:

• Allow to move the handle without requiring a lot of force from the wrist or arm.
  
• Be precise in its movements and eliminate jitter.
  
• Have no gradations of force to be applied to a joystick.
  For example, if you need to apply more force to move the joystick out of the center,
  it is very disturbing.
  
• Simple to setup (plug and play). Not everyone has a dedicated flight lab...
  
• When using the stick, it should be stable on the ground, no sliding of the stick when using it.

Look at my comments below, there is today simply not even one joystick on the market that has these functions ...

• Very important: A working force feedback function. This is very important for flying helicopters and airplanes. When you trim the helicopter rotors, the stick should take the position of the last trimmed position. Also, for other airplanes, the force feedback can provide additional realism to the game in terms of shaking and resistance...
  And, very important, the joystick force feedback mechanism should be quiet. The best force feedback joystick made every was the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 FF joystick. The Logitech G940 is the worst force feedback joystick. One has to hide a small detector to make the force feedback work as it should, and the motor of the force feedback is very noisy! With todays technology in place, it should be possible to make a quiet force feedback without rotating or mechanical parts using magnets...
  
  
• Very important: Slew hats on the top of the joystick, that can be used to slew pointers, aming crosses, cameras etc. Most joysticks today only have binary slew hats, that can slew up, down, left, right and sometimes also diagonal (but not always). A good joystick should have analogue slew hats, which allow to slew pointers to all directions, but also, to define the speed of the slew determined by the amount of slew you apply on the hat. If the slew is more to the center, then the speed should be slow, if the slew is more to the border, the slew should be fast...
  
  
• Very important: Rudder function by rotating the stick left or right. The Logitech or the Thrustmaster T-1600M have this function. However, more expense joysticks like the Saitek X55 or the Thrustmaster Hotas lack this function. You need special pedals for that, which is hard to setup and remove, and is an additional cost.
  
  
• Very important: Two types of fire buttons that you can press with your pointing finger. One to fire guns, and one for other ammunition. Preferably, there should also be a dedicated button to change ammunition type.
  
  
• Important: Various buttons on the top of the joystick, typically to fire rockets, targetting, selecting and changing targets, etc... Most joysticks have this functionality.
  
  
• Important: An analogue slider to apply trust to engines. I find only some joysticks to have this functionality.
  
  
• Switches or buttons that can be applied to certain plane functions. I find some joysticks to have this feature very much developed. Like to hotas or the Saitek X55... Some joysticks have merely buttons, like the Thrustmaster T-1600M or the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
  
  
• Lights: Useful to have lights indicating if certain switches are on or off or indicated using different colors ... Some joysticks have lights, but are overall for the complete joystick configuration. It would be really neat to have it per switch.

Well ... If somebody on the forum could highlight me a model that have these options, I think it would help a lot of people ... Most joysticks have lots of features described above, but not all inclusive.

I find Logitech one of the most dissapointing companies today when it comes to joystick production. For some reason they are releasing at least 3 to 4 different mouse and controller types a year, but when it comes to joysticks, they have the same model available for the last 5 years ... Logitech used to be the top hardware manufacturer, when it comes to joysticks, but by far not anymore.
Today, the best joystick manufacturer is Thrustmaster. Then second, Saiktek. But these joysticks feel a bit ... Chinese... I mean ..., cheap ..., with exception of the TM Hotas, which is also really expensive, but does not meet lots of the requirements.

What I also HATE, are the joystick reviewers, who have no clue at all what makes a good joystick. A lot of renowed news agencies and web services publish joystick reviews based on dodgy criteria with no consistency and lack of good vision and content. It is like these people never have known the 1990s... They never really actually had a FF stick in the hands I think.


For a summary, find below a list of available joysticks. I've indicated with a * the ones that i have personally used during my virtual flight career...

Logitech:

http://gaming.logitech.com/nl-be/product/extreme-3d-pro-joystick (*)
http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/flight-system-g940 (* discontinued)


Thrustmaster:

http://www.thrustmaster.com/products/t16000m (*)
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-4
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/hotas-warthog
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-hotas-x
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tflight-stick-x


Saitek:

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x55.html (*)
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52pro.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x52.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/fly5.html
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/v1.html


Microsoft (does not produce joysticks anymore...), but did have force feedback!:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder


kind regards,
Sven

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Logitech, ThrustMaster, Saitek... there u go, plenty good stuff.

But mainly cause there is no market for it anymore.

Most people I know who play say Arma2, Arma3 or even other Combat Sims; just use Keyboard & Mouse. Practice makes perfect. I can fly a Helo great with Keyboard and Mouse; but fly a Jet at high speed and shoot accurately too; no... but I just use Controller for that.

Controllers are more common cause of the fact that most people also have, or had consoles at some point; so why buy another controller type when you can just plug in your Xbox or PS controller and use that... that is the way it is now is all.

[Flightcontrol]

Originally posted by Bad-Motha:

Logitech, ThrustMaster, Saitek... there u go, plenty good stuff.

But mainly cause there is no market for it anymore.

Most people I know who play say Arma2, Arma3 or even other Combat Sims; just use Keyboard & Mouse. Practice makes perfect. I can fly a Helo great with Keyboard and Mouse; but fly a Jet at high speed and shoot accurately too; no... but I just use Controller for that.

Controllers are more common cause of the fact that most people also have, or had consoles at some point; so why buy another controller type when you can just plug in your Xbox or PS controller and use that... that is the way it is now is all.

My friend, I think you are missing out a complete world in simulation:

www.digitalcombatsimulator.com

Or on steam:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/223750/

Maybe you know the title already, but reading what you wrote, I think you really should have a look at the above ...

And while exploring, have a look here at the Eagle Dynamics forums:

https://forums.eagle.ru/index.php

kind regards,
Sven

[Bad 💀 Motha]

I've been playing every kind of game; even Flight-Sims.
Been PC Gaming since the mid 80s (Apple / Commodore) and then Intel PC in early 90s

There are plenty from Saitek and Thrustmaster; what's stopping you.
But they are not cheap. But the quality is top-notch for most part.

[Flightcontrol]

Originally posted by Bad-Motha:

I've been playing every kind of game; even Flight-Sims.
Been PC Gaming since the mid 80s (Apple / Commodore) and then Intel PC in early 90s

There are plenty from Saitek and Thrustmaster; what's stopping you.
But they are not cheap. But the quality is top-notch for most part.

I agree. Nothing stopped me from purchasing most of these joysticks. Having them, and used them, and flown them, I have a mixture of features spread out over all these sticks. Why isn't it possible for manufacturers to make a "real good" joystick. Even the hotas has maginal qualities to my experience, because it is a specific A-10C stick, not made for flying helicopters.

I really think the manufacturers could have a closer look at their market segment, and what virtual pilots would buy ... The latest Thrustmaster http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/t16000m-fcs-hotas homes close, but again, misses features...

And Saitek, to be really honest, is in big problems, because they were acquired by Logitech recently ... Maybe Logitech is again investing in joysticks, but I hope they read this post ...

Sven

[Bad 💀 Motha]

Because quality to last is not cheap; and the average person would never spend above $100 range for such a controller type.

The ones Logitech and Microsoft offered up; they were ok for their price. If you used it alot; it wore out and replaced it, simple as that. But those did serve a purpose for the low/mid range market.

Logitech still has a popular Joystick; it's just as good and holds up I think better then anything Microsoft ever offered up.

But yea I mean if you are a die-hard Sim fan; you're gonna pay the bigger $ for those expensive Joysticks; they have quality and hold up quite well. Many just modify them their selves if they do start wearing out, to help up-keep them over time. Or transplant them into better boxes; like a custom made setup some folks like to do for Driving/Flying.

There is no real market though outside of Sims. Most games won't even support Joysticks; cause alot of games are ports; and thus just support the common controllers; like Xbox360/One Controllers; at least natively without you the user doing alot of work to get a Joystick to work in certain games.

[Flightcontrol]

Originally posted by Bad-Motha:

There is no real market though outside of Sims. Most games won't even support Joysticks; cause alot of games are ports; and thus just support the common controllers; like Xbox360/One Controllers; at least natively without you the user doing alot of work to get a Joystick to work in certain games.

I don't agree my friend. Space sims are hot, so are flight sims.

[Bad 💀 Motha]

The target audience though is what you have to generally consider; most of those are folks of around 35 yrs old or under; most in their teens to maybe mid-20s; most of whom are used to and/or grew up with your "Xbox" / "Sony" consoles; and they make due with those types of Controllers.

All I'm getting at is the general brands must just feel there is a lack of target audience for those higher-end "Flight Sticks/Throttle/Pedals"

Again that is me looking at the broad audience; and narrowing it down to what they must consider their target audience. Most of whom are college folks with not a whole lot of money to invest for these kinds of devices.

Again the high-end Flight Sticks are there if you want them; just not much competition/brands.

[Flightcontrol]

Originally posted by Bad-Motha:

The target audience though is what you have to generally consider; most of those are folks of around 35 yrs old or under; most in their teens to maybe mid-20s; most of whom are used to and/or grew up with your "Xbox" / "Sony" consoles; and they make due with those types of Controllers.

All I'm getting at is the general brands must just feel there is a lack of target audience for those higher-end "Flight Sticks/Throttle/Pedals"

Again that is me looking at the broad audience; and narrowing it down to what they must consider their target audience. Most of whom are college folks with not a whole lot of money to invest for these kinds of devices.

Again the high-end Flight Sticks are there if you want them; just not much competition/brands.

Yup, and just have a look here, which is a different target audience, same post (more or less):
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=159893.

Interesting feedback here...

I personally am a long time in flight simulation, and having flown many simulators, I learned and am amazed what DCS World provides, and what other flight sims did in the past. Janes for example ...

I guess what the flight sim world experiences is a "generation gap". I guess it is with age.
Back in the 1980s, 90s, flight sims were hot. Now, todays most gamers like quick games, shooting, graphical realism, but less complexity, less time, less knowledge.

It is interesting, because now the technology is there providing really realistic sims, but now, for some reason or another, people don't like to spend time setting up their equipment, and investing in equipment. Now all is about controllers and game consoles... Amazing. We used to buy really expensive sticks and equipment to compensate for the lack of realism on the computer... And now it seems to be the other way around ...

I think people don't know what they are missing ... It is like reading a book. How many kids read a good book today?

Sven

[Hiten]

Originally posted by Bad-Motha:

There are plenty from Saitek and Thrustmaster; what's stopping you.
But they are not cheap. But the quality is top-notch for most part.

Saitek and quality?

You just lost all credibility. Saitek is as far from "quality" as you can get, and having owned their products myself, I say that truthfully. Sure, if there something isn't broken right out of the box (my first x52), or breaks within a month or two (my second x52) even while being gentle, you have a decent - DECENT - hotas. Still missing a ton of stuff like analog hats, FF, etc.

Sven: I've been b*tching about this exact situation for several years. Hopefully with Logitech acquiring Saitek means they will try to put out a good hotas soon. Mad Catz owned Saitek previously and they are known for being garbage so it doesn't surprise me at all that they ran Saitek into the ground. Saitek used to be good many many years ago. Not anymore.

edit: almost forgot. This is probably missing a few things listed, and is expensive (when it's available...), but is probably the "best" stick (no throttle) out there at the moment, up there with Warthog by TM. https://flightsimcontrols.com/store/joysticks/vkb-fat-black-mamba-for-non-eu/

[JDarksword]

The thing you forget in some of this, is that most users go for realism, that means that for instance on the HOTAS Warthog there is no twist rudder because it's designed for use with pedals as it is a replica of the A-10C HOTAS system. You also forget that many users don't use slew hats for looking in the cockpit, many use TrackIR or the keyboard/mouse to look and use hats for their irl functions. Many real sticks use the same button/trigger for guns/other weapons. Good example, the F-18 stick uses the trigger for guns and air to air weapons, and uses the weapons release button for air to ground munitions. Also you say that people don't like to spend money on realistic HOTAS setups any more, yet your suggesting that a "good" stick should have features that may be unrealistic.

[Hiten]

Originally posted by JDarksword:

Also you say that people don't like to spend money on realistic HOTAS setups any more, yet your suggesting that a "good" stick should have features that may be unrealistic.

What is unrealistic for one game/aircraft/module isn't necessarily unrealistic for a different game/aircraft/module though. Flying a space ship is not the same as flying the A-10C. I certainly do not want more than one HOTAS on my desk, so I will not buy the TM Warthog because it is too dedicated to one aircraft and lacks "features" that while might not be used by the A-10C, might be incredibly helpful to have when flying in Elite: Dangerous. If you only play DCS A-10C, sure the TM Warthog is a dream come true. But for simmers (like me) who fly a variety of jets, helicopters, and spacecraft, the ultra-realistic and dedicated sticks won't cut it.

[JDarksword]

Originally posted by Hiten:

Originally posted by JDarksword:

Also you say that people don't like to spend money on realistic HOTAS setups any more, yet your suggesting that a "good" stick should have features that may be unrealistic.

What is unrealistic for one game/aircraft/module isn't necessarily unrealistic for a different game/aircraft/module though. Flying a space ship is not the same as flying the A-10C. I certainly do not want more than one HOTAS on my desk, so I will not buy the TM Warthog because it is too dedicated to one aircraft and lacks "features" that while might not be used by the A-10C, might be incredibly helpful to have when flying in Elite: Dangerous. If you only play DCS A-10C, sure the TM Warthog is a dream come true. But for simmers (like me) who fly a variety of jets, helicopters, and spacecraft, the ultra-realistic and dedicated sticks won't cut it.

As I said though, many users use the TrackIR system, a custom built tracker, or FaceTrackNoIR to provide head tracking.

[Hiten]

Originally posted by JDarksword:

As I said though, many users use the TrackIR system, a custom built tracker, or FaceTrackNoIR to provide head tracking.

No doubt. I've been using TrackIR 5 with Track Clip for years myself and it's just as important as a good hotas IMO.

[Mors]

Rotating stick is worst that you can wish for anything else than space flight. Helicopters can't be flu correctly without pedals and same thing is with the aircrafts as you just don't get the capability do controlled turns with the rotatry stick.

FF isn't required for a throttle, what is needed for helicopters is to have a physical break leveler so throttle doesn't move unless you squeeze leveler first.

FF on pedals would be just like a trimmer on helicopters, lock the pedals to position they were set.


What is needed is a modular stick where you can swap buttons/hats positions as you need, buy e extra modules so you can even have a 4 hats in stick if wanted so or just 8 buttons.

[JDarksword]

Originally posted by Mors:

Rotating stick is worst that you can wish for anything else than space flight. Helicopters can't be flu correctly without pedals and same thing is with the aircrafts as you just don't get the capability do controlled turns with the rotatry stick.

FF isn't required for a throttle, what is needed for helicopters is to have a physical break leveler so throttle doesn't move unless you squeeze leveler first.

FF on pedals would be just like a trimmer on helicopters, lock the pedals to position they were set.


What is needed is a modular stick where you can swap buttons/hats positions as you need, buy e extra modules so you can even have a 4 hats in stick if wanted so or just 8 buttons.

In a fast jet you shouldn't be using your rudder unless you are doing a crosswind landing or maneuvering on the ground and in very moderated amounts foraminifera your guns very finely.