Watercooled vs Fans?
thinking i wana switch to a water cooled PC for my next gaming pc
my piece of ♥♥♥♥ i have now has a fan that suddenly wants to be an ass and GRRRR's
have to kick its metal ass to make it shut up
barbaric yes but it works, yet i get a buzzing sound

is watercooled better at keeping it cooler and silent?
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กำลังแสดง 61-75 จาก 82 ความเห็น
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
It conducts poorly, but absorbs good.

Yeah. They certainly have crap in them. My statements may as well. I don't have a portable lab to test any of these numbers. At least, not right now. I just assume they are correct, but they may just as well be wrong in practice.
It's not like I can scientifically proof any of this in my current state.


But if you throw a hot object in cold water, it should cool down sooner. At least, last time I checked. Of course, I'm not sure what happens if the water is the same temperature as the air or is stagnant, or when there is very small basin of water. But that's something that we can test, if you can get me to the lab. :gordon:

Anyhow, any article, I ever read about overclocking, states using watercooling in those setups has more cooling potential. So they are probably right. (unless they are all wrong, which isn't logically sound, considering I never ready anything stating the opposite. And I read quite a few articles.)

Conduct and absorb mean the same thing.

In this instance, heat. Both will take the heat, and move it into their means to transfer it to yet another medium - Transfer of heat to the surrounding air, which then moves the heat away yet again.

Technically speaking though, tower air coolers are also 'liquid coolers', because heat pipes contain a liquid. It does have a lower point at which is becomes vapor, which moves the heat to the furthest end of the heatpipe, a brilliant way of moving heat.
Though, back to the point.

Water has lower conductive ability than any metal, and even glass - However, it's means of cooling is different, it moves the heat away from the source much faster, and has much more thermal mass, if you're doing it right.
That is why water cooling appears to have lower temps, because it takes much longer for water, and the mass of the water to heat up.
Once they're both at their peak temperature, they're going to be similar heat, depending on how many rads you have.
(If you have more airflow, you will have more cooling, but, going by the most regular size of AIO, 2 fans, you will have the same temps, roughly.)

Cooling ability, and cooling potential are different things.
With a custom loop, you have a higher potential for cooling, for an AIO, you have a limit on it's ability. Since, with the latter, you're limited by what you've already got, one radiator, but with the former, you can have as many as you wish.

Water cooling CAN be worse than air cooling, and is often the case with 120mm rad AIOs. Or very poor configs on custom loops. (Like GPU and CPU in the same loop with a 240mm rad.)

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
But water is more dense, right? So it probably has more particles to absorb the heat.
Thermal mass =/= Conductive ability.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
I will test this. Give me a sec. I've got some equipment here. I can easily run a test. One moment.

I've got a bucket of water, 6 liter, (need to make the water the same temperature as surrounding, yes?)
I'll will warm up two pieces of metal with the same mass, and then see which cools down sooner. One in air, one in water.

If it cools down sooner in water, then water is better at keeping it cooler. Yes?
No.
You've got a different thermal mass, and you're displacing the heat.
If you place it in the water, you're getting much better contact to the thing you're trying to cool, thus improving conductivity, and you've got a much larger area to spread that heat (Meaning higher CAPACITY for cooling), and you've got a much larger area to transfer that heat to the air, cooling it further.

The proper way to test this, would be to get the same thermal mass, make sure only the same area is getting airflow/air exposure, and make sure that the object is going to stay warmer for longer than 5 seconds.

You're not testing somethings ability to cool a CPU (or other thing that produces sustained heat), you're testing how long it would take you too cool something down from x temperature, to x temperature.
You're testing the wrong thing, and you're going to attribute that to a CPU coolers ability.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
I´m a disbeliever.
I´m running a test-setup right now. I´ll have a fan blowing air over the object residing in the air, to simulate a fan in the op´s future pc. The other metal object is in water, without circulation. Both environments will be of equal temperature.

And then he can have his answer, and we can be done with this.
That's a lot of variance you've got there;
1) The fan is what speed? How much air can it push? How far from the object?
2) What is the water temperature (because conductive ability is also dependant on temperature)? How much water is there?
3) What is the temperature of the object you're placing in the water? What metal is it made of? How much surface area is there on it? How much mass does it have?
4) What is the ambient temperature?
5) You're going to allow the air to increase in temperature, reducing it's ability to conduct heat, thus making it a worse performer?
6) Are you going to use your hand to place it in the water? Changing the amount of time it's exposed to said enviroments? Or changing the results by effecting water/object temperatures?
And, probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting, or don't even know about.

To properly test this, you have to have the SAME enviroment for both things, you have to carefully regulate everything that it is exposed to, and what the results are.
You can't just dip it in water and go 'wow it is working!!!'

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
Someone get me a modern thermometer that instantly measures temperature. I can't work with these ancient tools. If OP has that, it can easily run a test at home.
Measuring devices can be inaccurate, you would need something that can accurately measure the enviroment / object you're testing.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
What's wrong with my method? It's a perfectly fine test-setup. If I could actually get the water to be the same temperature as the surroundings. Which is a bit difficult without that thermometer. Hence I was asking if the OP has one, so he/she can run the test him/herself.
Read above, you'll see, there's so much variance, even a half credible scientist would throw that ♥♥♥♥ away without even glancing at it.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
I agree. But that's not important when merely proving the cooling properties of the liquid itself.
The cooling properties of the liquid highly depend on a lot of factors.
One case is not all cases, one use is not all uses.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
Thank them for that. Anyway, placing the case in a sound-proof box, would beat water-cooling, if silence is what he/she requires. If he/she prefers keeping it cool over keeping it quiet, than water-cooling may be "better".

But what I read from his/her text, it´s only the sound that bothers him/her. Which makes water-cooling uncalled for.
Actually, there's plenty of methods MUCH better than air or water cooling, though impractical.

Also, if air moves, it makes sound - if air is going into that box, it's going to make noise.
But, wait, you can just seal the box, right?! Wrong, then it would overheat. Even in refrigerated enviroments, it overheats.

Watercooling would provide a COOLER experience, if they had more surface area to cool, and airflow over said areas.
But, if OP is going to use a 120-240mm AIO, then an air cooler would match or beat it performance wise, and produce just as much sound, or even less, because there's less resistance on what air is being pushed through, meaning higher airflow, and increased cooling ability.
Also, with water cooling, you've got pump noise, which can be more annoying than fan noise. Depending on the pitch, and tone.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 𝓢𝓹𝓪𝓬𝓮𝓒𝓪𝓽:
In my opinion, a good air cooler like a Noctua performs just as well as any water cooler. Water cooling in most cases just isn't worth it unless of course, you like the aesthetics, then go for it.
It's not really opinion, it's fact.
The only time water cooling is worth it (thermally) is when you're doing large loops, with lots of surface area.

I would comment about the aesthetical standpoint too, but that's not what this has all been aimed at, and it's up to the end user to decide.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
It could be worth it. Was it not for when they started placing fans on parts we would not have these current day graphics? We just don´t see many mainboards that have integrated water-cooling-systems that also fit in a case. Would there be those, things may be different.
Because it adds cost, it's a niche market, and it adds a point of failure. Goes against everything businesses want to do, it would cost them to much - That's why you don't see it.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
But the same could have been said about passive cooling before they started doing that, and it became a standard. I almost feel bad for having talked the OP out of it. :p2wheatley:
Back in the day, parts didn't need cooling, because they didn't use that much power.
As more power started being used, cooling became required. That's why we moved to active cooling.
Not because it's 'hip and trendy', it was needed.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
You're right. If it's raw computing power the OP wants, it may be better off buying a server mainboard or park, instead of messing around with liquid cooling on a pc.
But those too, may be water-cooled.

*imagines a network of pc's with reservoirs of water within them attached to a central pump*

Surely, that must be better than hundreds of individual fans?
Of course this is an insane thought, because the OP wants to assemble a pc, not a pumping station. But if the OP plans on building a computer of colossal proportions, water-cooling may end up being better.
(Sorry. I´m bringing this discussion into the absurd, forget I mentioned it. I lost myself in sci-fi there for a moment. :steamfacepalm:)

What about cooling it with liquid nitrogen? There are way better cooling methods then a spinning piece of plastic on a heatsink.
If you're talking about cooling servers, that's silly.
Water cooling, especially on the scale, adds a point of failure.
If a server goes down, or a rack goes down, that's everything ♥♥♥♥♥♥ until it's fixed. ESPECIALLY ON SUPER COMPUTERS, where everything is working on the same thing, and is calibrated perfectly.
Also, server rooms are refrigerated, much lower temperature inside of them.

Liquid Nitrogen boils away, you would need a constant supply of it.
Then you've got the effects of the air around it (because when it boils away, it poisons the air around it.)
Then you've got delivery of the coolant, if you use to much, you crash the CPU, to little, and you're not using it right.
Then you've got moisture build up, ice melting over SMDs causing shorts.
LN2 isn't worth it for practically cooling a computer, or cooling servers.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
What about one of those vapor chamber heat sinks? Then you can have an in-between solution, and then you don´t have to pump water either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe
Every cooler that Escorve linked this time has heat pipes - Commonly reffered to as 'air cooling', but is actually liquid.

We're long past the days of a slap of copper and aluminium (except if you're Intel.)
Even AMDs stock coolers have heat pipes.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Escorve:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
What about one of those vapor chamber heat sinks? Then you can have an in-between solution, and then you don´t have to pump water either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

Still requires fans, and that's still air cooler tech. A lot of air coolers have that type of heat pipe.

It can't replace fans because all it really does is carry the heat like any other heat pipe.
Every heatpipe is 'this kind of heat pipe' - It's not a long thin piece of metal (copper), because it wouldn't effectively move heat. One end would stay hot, the other would stay cold.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Ad Hominem:
A high end tower air cooler (something like the Noctua NH-D15) comes within like 2 or 3 degrees of a big ass AIO liquid cooler. And has significantly less modes of failure and significantly lower consequences if it does fail. Not to mention air cooling is cheaper by a long shot.

To your point about your fan, you might need to double check that a wire hasn't found its way into the fan blades which would make the buzzing noise.

The only way to get more meaningful cooling performance would be a custom water loop.
Often times, the NH-D15 or DRP4 is better, better than both 120 and 360mm coolers, on par with 240-280mm.
Doesn't have the failure points either.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Bad 💀 Motha:
At the end of the day it's still always the copper block and the rad fans doing most of the work. You don't need a pumped liquid cycle. Heat pipes and fins do the job just as well when compared to any of these off the shelf AIO LC
Heat pipes are a 'liquid cycle', but semantics.
A good air cooler will beat an AIO. Albeit by a few degrees, but it doesn't cost as much, and has less failure points, and is quieter (in some cases, with the right fans.)


โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SonicXSally Furever:
thinking i wana switch to a water cooled PC for my next gaming pc
my piece of ♥♥♥♥ i have now has a fan that suddenly wants to be an ♥♥♥ and GRRRR's
have to kick its metal ♥♥♥ to make it shut up
barbaric yes but it works, yet i get a buzzing sound

is watercooled better at keeping it cooler and silent?
Smacking the fan just knocks the bearing back into place. Barbaric, but it works....for a while.

Water cooling would keep it more silent, sometimes.
Your best bet for silence would be a big air cooler (the more overkill the better.) Then you can run fans at a lower speed, reducing fan noise, and air turbulence.

With a water cooler, you have to have fans spinning faster to push air - more air turbulence.
And you have a pump - humming noise.

Water would be an effective, if you do what I said in one (of the many) previous responses, but you would still have pump noise.
But, a good tower cooler is just as effective, and cheaper.

My honest advice, buy a NH-D15, or Dark Rock Pro 4.
But he's not asking for advice. He's asking what's `better`. Ha, ha. (an opinion)

Feel free to improve my practical test-setup though. I just didn't had many items I could use, so that's the best I could get with this current equipment. At any rate, it´s more pragmatic than just taking everything on faith, because the internet tells him so.
At least I had something to run a test with, before you came and butchered the idea, without offering any constructive criticism to it. :steammocking:

Besides, he just wants to play a game. So he doesn´t need a fridge in his pc. End of story.
At the end of the day, he will still be left wanting, one way or the other.
The OP is physically assaulting it's own pc to get it to, I quote: "be an ♥♥♥ and GRRRR's
have to kick its metal ♥♥♥ to make it shut up", instead of just repairing the fan. So the last thing we want, is to have it install any pumps spilling liquids in there. :steamhappy:
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย AustrAlien2010; 7 เม.ย. 2020 @ 11: 41am
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย FluffyPinkDecoyBunny:
Don't forget that your case will play a significant role in this whole thing, too.

I had a CM Cosmos 1000 - I'd rate the air flow in it a 2 out of 5, it was pretty poor. Utilizing air coolers in it was not as effective as using a AIO in that case.

A CoolerMaster V8 and a Hyper 212+ couldn't keep my old Phenom II x4 940 as cool as the Corsair H50 could. Best overclock I could hit on air was 3.6, this was with 1.4875V. Only way to get to 3.71 was to push the voltage all the way to the boards max of 1.55V, but then the CPU temp would exceed the thermal limit (62C) and start pushing 70C and the CPU would throttle.

On the Corsair H50 I could hit the same OC of 3.6 on 1.45V. When I pushed the voltage up to 1.5 I could push the OC to a stable 3.71 and still run the CPU a couple of degrees cooler than what the air coolers could provide with 1.4875V.

If your case has poor air circulation, a AIO would probably be your best bet. If you have good air circulation you'd probably see a similar performance in temps with an air cooler vs an AIO.
Well for one, they weren't meant to be overclocked so they didn't oc well at all unless it was a "BE" Black Edition, which is why I grabbed a Phenom II X4 965 BE. I had no issues OC to 4.0 -4.2 ghz areas on a Hyper212 EVO
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Bad 💀 Motha:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย FluffyPinkDecoyBunny:
Don't forget that your case will play a significant role in this whole thing, too.

I had a CM Cosmos 1000 - I'd rate the air flow in it a 2 out of 5, it was pretty poor. Utilizing air coolers in it was not as effective as using a AIO in that case.

A CoolerMaster V8 and a Hyper 212+ couldn't keep my old Phenom II x4 940 as cool as the Corsair H50 could. Best overclock I could hit on air was 3.6, this was with 1.4875V. Only way to get to 3.71 was to push the voltage all the way to the boards max of 1.55V, but then the CPU temp would exceed the thermal limit (62C) and start pushing 70C and the CPU would throttle.

On the Corsair H50 I could hit the same OC of 3.6 on 1.45V. When I pushed the voltage up to 1.5 I could push the OC to a stable 3.71 and still run the CPU a couple of degrees cooler than what the air coolers could provide with 1.4875V.

If your case has poor air circulation, a AIO would probably be your best bet. If you have good air circulation you'd probably see a similar performance in temps with an air cooler vs an AIO.
Well for one, they weren't meant to be overclocked so they didn't oc well at all unless it was a "BE" Black Edition, which is why I grabbed a Phenom II X4 965 BE. I had no issues OC to 4.0 -4.2 ghz areas on a Hyper212 EVO

940 was unlocked. It was AM2+ socket. It overclocked just fine. It didn't have the headroom like the AM3 versions did. The 945/55/65/75/80 (I think those were the model numbers) were on the AM3 socket (was applied the AM3 CPUs) - AM3 handled overclocking better.

Some folks had better silicon for some of the AM2+ x4 940 and could push them to 3.8 or 3.9.
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย FluffyPinkDecoyBunny; 7 เม.ย. 2020 @ 1: 24pm
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย AustrAlien2010:
But he's not asking for advice. He's asking what's `better`. Ha, ha. (an opinion)

Feel free to improve my practical test-setup though. I just didn't had many items I could use, so that's the best I could get with this current equipment. At any rate, it´s more pragmatic than just taking everything on faith, because the internet tells him so.
At least I had something to run a test with, before you came and butchered the idea, without offering any constructive criticism to it. :steammocking:

Besides, he just wants to play a game. So he doesn´t need a fridge in his pc. End of story.
At the end of the day, he will still be left wanting, one way or the other.
The OP is physically assaulting it's own pc to get it to, I quote: "be an ♥♥♥ and GRRRR's
have to kick its metal ♥♥♥ to make it shut up", instead of just repairing the fan. So the last thing we want, is to have it install any pumps spilling liquids in there. :steamhappy:

1. Performance wise, liquid cooling is better because 280 and 360mm rads often have more surface area and fans, but it's often louder.

2. Your test method was simply bad and unnecessary, especially for something that's basically common knowledge at this point.

3. If he's just playing games then he doesn't need liquid cooling then, does he? Why spend 100+ on an AIO when he can spend only 80 on a beefy air cooler like the Dark Rock Pro 4 that performs like coolers which cost almost twice as much?
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย meh:
One top advantage of an AIO is the space. With the Noctua I cant even remove the graphic card by hand on this AM4 board. I could on the Intel board, so the socket is obviously closer to the PCI-E slot on the AM4. I have to either remove the cooler's middle fan or try and push the fastening clip with a screwdriver, or somin.
This thought didn't even cross my mind - Good point.
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Autumn:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย meh:
One top advantage of an AIO is the space. With the Noctua I cant even remove the graphic card by hand on this AM4 board. I could on the Intel board, so the socket is obviously closer to the PCI-E slot on the AM4. I have to either remove the cooler's middle fan or try and push the fastening clip with a screwdriver, or somin.
This thought didn't even cross my mind - Good point.

But are you really taking out your GPU that often? I can see it if it's like a test bench or something and you're messing around but most people just leave their case closed and forget about it.
Especially with most of Noctua's coolers as they're absolutely hideous.
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย r.linder; 7 เม.ย. 2020 @ 5: 07pm
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Escorve:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Autumn:
This thought didn't even cross my mind - Good point.

But are you really taking out your GPU that often? I can see it if it's like a test bench or something and you're messing around but most people just leave their case closed and forget about it.
Especially with most of Noctua's coolers as they're absolutely hideous.
Personally? Or realistically?

Because personally, I have no dust filters on my PC, and I have 3 dogs, so dust does become an issue. I have to constantly take my GPU apart (because it's a blower), and clean the insides out.

Realistically, for other people, with dust filters an all that noise. Probably not, maybe once a year for a deep clean? Maybe not even that, once every couple of years?

HEY, don't dis the brown and beige!
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Autumn:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Escorve:

But are you really taking out your GPU that often? I can see it if it's like a test bench or something and you're messing around but most people just leave their case closed and forget about it.
Especially with most of Noctua's coolers as they're absolutely hideous.
Personally? Or realistically?

Because personally, I have no dust filters on my PC, and I have 3 dogs, so dust does become an issue. I have to constantly take my GPU apart (because it's a blower), and clean the insides out.

Realistically, for other people, with dust filters an all that noise. Probably not, maybe once a year for a deep clean? Maybe not even that, once every couple of years?

HEY, don't dis the brown and beige!

Realistically, the majority of people don't touch their PCs, even those with tons of pets unless the system starts overheating because of ♥♥♥♥ clogging up their fans/filters.
I'm not talking about just gamers, I'm talking about ALL PC users, worldwide. Most people don't touch it because they don't know what they're doing and are typically afraid to do anything, lest they somehow break something.

I'll dis the brown and beige all I want, thank you very much... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have a windowed case with such an ugly air cooler. I'd only buy them for closed cases, though in hindsight I'd be more likely to buy air cooling from be quiet! since they're just better due to less noise.
My systems are built in one of two ways, but both works of art in their own right: either they're vibrant and flashy, or simplistic and practical (aka RGB or non-RGB plain black)
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย r.linder; 7 เม.ย. 2020 @ 5: 19pm
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย SonicXSally Furever:
thinking i wana switch to a water cooled PC for my next gaming pc
my piece of ♥♥♥♥ i have now has a fan that suddenly wants to be an ♥♥♥ and GRRRR's
have to kick its metal ♥♥♥ to make it shut up
barbaric yes but it works, yet i get a buzzing sound

is watercooled better at keeping it cooler and silent?
You decide to water cool you can PM me, this turned into a ♥♥♥♥ show as usual
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Escorve:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Autumn:
Personally? Or realistically?

Because personally, I have no dust filters on my PC, and I have 3 dogs, so dust does become an issue. I have to constantly take my GPU apart (because it's a blower), and clean the insides out.

Realistically, for other people, with dust filters an all that noise. Probably not, maybe once a year for a deep clean? Maybe not even that, once every couple of years?

HEY, don't dis the brown and beige!

Realistically, the majority of people don't touch their PCs, even those with tons of pets unless the system starts overheating because of ♥♥♥♥ clogging up their fans/filters.
I'm not talking about just gamers, I'm talking about ALL PC users, worldwide. Most people don't touch it because they don't know what they're doing and are typically afraid to do anything, lest they somehow break something.

I'll dis the brown and beige all I want, thank you very much... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have a windowed case with such an ugly air cooler. I'd only buy them for closed cases, though in hindsight I'd be more likely to buy air cooling from be quiet! since they're just better due to less noise.
My systems are built in one of two ways, but both works of art in their own right: either they're vibrant and flashy, or simplistic and practical (aka RGB or non-RGB plain black)
That's true.
Still, there's people (albeit very few) that would benefit from the accessability of an AIO.

I would love to be part of the brown and beige team! I would show it off proudly.
But on a serious note, I'd just use my black and white Arctic fans. If that wasn't an option, I'm pretty adept with a rattle can.
5 mins and it'll be a lovely shade of.....I dunno, what do I have in my paint box? Lmao.
What’s interesting to me is that everyone is stating water in the argument .....almost nobody uses water we use a mix that contains some form of fluorocarbon...google it
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W8lifts:
What’s interesting to me is that everyone is stating water in the argument .....almost nobody uses water we use a mix that contains some form of fluorocarbon...google it

Water, liquid, whatever. It's pretty much common knowledge that it's not straight up water because the loop would get full of algae and crud without biological inhibitors. Doesn't really matter whether or not you say liquid or water... and many people running custom loops do use distilled water and add the biological inhibitor themselves.
AIO manufacturers use a mix made specifically to handle mixed metals and bio inhibitors.
แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย r.linder; 7 เม.ย. 2020 @ 5: 29pm
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Escorve:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W8lifts:
What’s interesting to me is that everyone is stating water in the argument .....almost nobody uses water we use a mix that contains some form of fluorocarbon...google it

Water, liquid, whatever. It's common knowledge that it's not straight up water because the loop would get full of algae and crud without biological inhibitors. Doesn't really matter whether or not you say liquid or water... and many people running custom loops do use distilled water and add the biological inhibitor themselves.
AIO manufacturers use a mix made specifically to handle mixed metals and bio inhibitors.
And that’s about what I expected from this forum...
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย meh:
โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย W8lifts:
What’s interesting to me is that everyone is stating water in the argument .....almost nobody uses water we use a mix that contains some form of fluorocarbon...google it
I don't think it's very relevant and only detracts from the arguments. It's more about experience and the pros and cons than sharing Wikipedia articles.
Lmao okay no experience
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