TLC ssds are the last straw!

[Clan Wolf]

Not convinced by SSDs anymore, Never was anyway. Was interested in changing out gaming libary WD black for 500-1TB.

Why the market price dropped is due to low production costs of TLC SSDs 3-bit.

Even Samsungs 860 EVO says its a MLC 3-bit aka TLC and more than half of the manufacters dont mention its type.

with burst of speed then low speed and garrenteed low amount of read/write cycles.

Where as 2-bit MLC the much better bunch are phasing out of production and all the marketing puts TLC ssds for gaming and high workloads causing much disillusion.

1-bit per cell SLC - server untouchables. very powerful
100k read/write cycles

2-bit per cell MLC they say its for enterprise, heavy workloads. gaming only maybe.
5k read/write cycles

3-bit per cell TLC - tablets, notebooks, emailing
1.5k read/write cycles

4-bits per cell QLC (new)
1k read write cycles

Is the only way to get MLC is through M.2?

If a cycle is deemed to that of total storage capacity to used

Its like we had taken 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. I don't think gamers and enterprise people realize this.

Whats the alternative? Its either be a hard drive or hybrid SSHD not dead yet.

Its a hole of the market left wondering, for high capacity. It will be some time before something replaces it.

chart
https://puu.sh/B5AiX/c48eb3e980.png

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/consumer-optane-enterprise-ssd-market,34631.html

Flash Industry Trends Could Lead Users Back to Spinning Disks

[_I_]

nvme, insanely fast but also 2x or more the price of standard ssd of the same size

hdd/hybrids are around for larger storage on the cheap
most hybrids have a 8g or smaller ssd part and 1+tb spinning disc

hdds are still around for large storage that does not need to be fast

[Clan Wolf]

_I_ eredeti hozzászólása:

nvme, insanely fast but also 2x or more the price of standard ssd of the same size

hdd/hybrids are around for larger storage on the cheap
most hybrids have a 8g or smaller ssd part and 1+tb spinning disc

hdds are still around for large storage that does not need to be fast

durability over speed first. when ppl say speed over anything has me asking questions.

yeah SSHD might find its calling.

hard drives are not going anywhere. At least until something viable can outpace it. So far nothing just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ promises.

read some white papers from researchers then wipe your butt with it.

Many of the next-generation SSDs we've seen so far were designed to decrease costs.

Performance is a secondary objective. The fabs will force 3D TLC on users and push for lower cost controller designs that further reduce performance in mixed and sustained workloads.

If the controller designers don't push back with more efficient products, we expect a revolt from power users, gamers, and enthusiasts.

That revolt will come in the form of Optane paired with spinning disks or used enterprise products purchased for workstation use.

3D TLC leaves a big hole at the upper end of the market where profits are higher than the low margin race to the bottom the inferior products target.

[Monk]

I don't see an issue, you get what you pay for and even a cheap low end SSD spanks a HDD, if it leads to mass storage ssd's, great, there's always nvme for the high end.

[Malygos]

Clan Wolf eredeti hozzászólása:

Many of the next-generation SSDs we've seen so far were designed to decrease costs.

Performance is a secondary objective. The fabs will force 3D TLC on users and push for lower cost controller designs that further reduce performance in mixed and sustained workloads.

If the controller designers don't push back with more efficient products, we expect a revolt from power users, gamers, and enthusiasts.

That revolt will come in the form of Optane paired with spinning disks or used enterprise products purchased for workstation use.

3D TLC leaves a big hole at the upper end of the market where profits are higher than the low margin race to the bottom the inferior products target.

No ones gonna revolt if i wanna buy an hdd for mass storage i can or if i wanna spend money for a large ssd i can. Its no different than anything else you can cheap out and expect to replace stuff or spend the extra money and get quality. 500gb 960 evo nvme’s are rated for 250tb worth of writes which will take most people years to even come close too with speeds that make hdd’s look like driving a pinto next to a lambo. They also arent expensive newegg had them on sale for $179 the other day buy 2 of those and a 1tb ssd unless you are downloading all kinds of nonsense which in that case buy a platter drive

[Clan Wolf]

most likely consumer grade ssds never got the top end of either TLC/MLC drives

TLC - they could be anywhere inbetween 1.500k - 3000k,

MLC - they were anywhere between 3000k - 10000k

What they figured tlc had enough cycles to last you 2-3 years. cheap bastards.

[Sapph]

Clan Wolf eredeti hozzászólása:

most likely consumer grade ssds never got the top end of either TLC/MLC drives

TLC - they could be anywhere inbetween 1.500k - 3000k,

MLC - they were anywhere between 3000k - 10000k

What they figured tlc had enough cycles to last you 2-3 years. cheap bastards.

And again, it's just that you get what you pay for. Something like Kingston A400, while not being nearly as good as 860 Evo or such, will be more than enough for regular users, instead of HDD or SSHD.

[Malygos]

Clan Wolf eredeti hozzászólása:

most likely consumer grade ssds never got the top end of either TLC/MLC drives

TLC - they could be anywhere inbetween 1.500k - 3000k,

MLC - they were anywhere between 3000k - 10000k

What they figured tlc had enough cycles to last you 2-3 years. cheap bastards.

Regular samsung ssd’s are rated for 150tb of writes youd have to be writing what like 150gb a day to make that only last 3 years no one is gonna do that and ssd’s offer a large enough bump in speed that 99% wont care. If you only get 5 years out of an ssd you bought a cheap one

[h_LordEC[no-VC]]

From 2012...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6459/samsung-ssd-840-testing-the-endurance-of-tlc-nand

Research helps.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SSD-Write-Endurance-25nm-Vs-34nm

P/E cycles is not overly important when talking about lifespan.
You are also forgetting about increased density which increases the overall storage capacity of the drives, further extending the lifespan.

40-50GiB of writes per day on a 128/256GB SSD is a bit different than the same amount of writes on a 2TB SSD. Not to mention that a few months ago I bought a 2TB SSD for $250.

[Clan Wolf]

i found what i was looking for. Samsung 860 Pro uses 2-bit MLC V-NAND

TLC such as that found in many drives these days was around a thousand

most MLC was rated for around 5,000 writes per cell

860 Pro series drives carry a TBW rating (TeraBytes Written-the total amount of data that may be written to the drive) that’s considerably higher than TLC-based drives: 1200TBW for each 1TB of capacity

now to play the waiting game...

[Keith]

Even my carelessly and extensively used Samsung 840 is several years old and still less than 10% through its theoretical lifetime. It will outlast me unless it dies for some other reason. It will certainly outlast the time when I can buy something much faster and bigger for a similar price. The same will apply to any SSD you buy today.

Durability simply is NOT an issue. If you're concerned about it dying prematurely (a completely different issue), buy one with a long warranty.

[Astraea Kisaragi]

I chose a MLC SSD in 2014, exactly for those reasons above instead TLC. Wish I would have taken the TLC Kingston instead, long story short I have chosen a bad brand (ADATA)

It works in 99% time but like once every 1-2 months the system forgets it.

[Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism]

I have a 250 GB EVO 850 and think the 75 TBW warranty is very low them again maybe with cautious use it take me about 5 years to get there. However in the one test I've seen that one or a similar one tested for how long it took until it failed it lasted much longer.

The problem with an SSD if this size is that if I want to say play Doom I'll have to install it wasting 70-80 GB of writes again. Same with GTA V, and so on. So I don't.

However the EVO 860 offer 150 TBW warranty instead which is twice as much and if I ordered a 1 TB version of that that would become 600 TBW and the thing is with a 1 TB drive I could keep things installed more not having to reinstall stuff as often and if you combine the life span in writes on that one which is 8 times longer than the one I have with the much smaller need to reinstall things it start to look pretty good.

As long as it would last me long enough I don't really care if it happen to be TLC. Better memory cells or more of them to distribute writes over and keep data on would have the same impact for me and as cheaper cells and drives offer more capacity instead.,,

[just.kamk /idle]

Clan Wolf eredeti hozzászólása:

Not convinced by SSDs anymore, Never was anyway. Was interested in changing out gaming libary WD black for 500-1TB.
...
Flash Industry Trends Could Lead Users Back to Spinning Disks

But why?
Has anyone here actually had an SSD for 5 years or more in constant use?

Getting to the TBW point of warranty is rather tough, even as a drive "for everything".
With just gaming installs you won't reach warranty for hostwrites before your actual warranty ends.

TLC isn't a last straw, it's just a technology for public demand, which is getting SSDs for cheap, with decent random reads / writes in bursts, while being able to cheaply produce larger capacities - exactly what 99% of all end consumers need.
Not all SSDs perform the same, like everything on the market. So pick accordingly.

I like tomshardware, but that article is just clickbait horsecrap at best, or probably just paid advertising.

Keith eredeti hozzászólása:

Durability simply is NOT an issue. If you're concerned about it dying prematurely (a completely different issue), buy one with a long warranty.

Exactly.
Buy a decent model, and you're set for years to come.

[Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism]

I would easily hit 75 TBW if I used my drive freely.

[just.kamk /idle]

Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism eredeti hozzászólása:

I would easily hit 75 TBW if I used my drive freely.

In 3 or 5 years?
With heavy video editing or enterprise usage, sure, but otherwise i can't see anyone hitting that.