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help me understand the dumb "human eyes can only see..."
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?
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It's bs.

One person's perception is different from anothers, and the only people arguing that 60 FPS is the highest we can see are arguably just stupid and arguing for the sake of wanting to be right.
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?

Well the point of the debate is for people to show off how good at assuming and using intuition they are. But people are terrible at guessing and filling in the blanks with whatever sounds reasonable.

And people tend to assume that the video standards we we've had are developed around some special insight into human vision, "They are X because X is what human beings can see." And don't understand that that many times those standards are more to do what human being can tolerate, what the technology is capable of, and what is cost effective at the time when the standard was developed. IE film used to run at 24 FPS because it worked well enough for people watching it and film was expensive. Not because 24FPS was a magical optimum for human vision.

But good luck expecting random people to accept they don't know anything about the subject and that their assumptions are usually bogus and totally uninformed.
Humans don't see in FPS, or Hz.
The debate is only a thing because of movies being shot in 24 FPS with ♥♥♥♥ tons of motionblur, to mimic how eyes react in normal life, it's just more apealing to watch movies and shows with motion blur (see all the complaints from 60fps movies.)
But, with movies and shows, you're not really focusing, you're just 'watching' (same way you can't really judge input lag or refresh rate of a monitor you're watching), so you don't really see. But with a monitor you're sitting infront of, and actively using, you can and will feel the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that is 24FPS.

Obviously peoples perception of motion is different; Racecar drivers, Jet pilots, and anything that requires fast reactions generally see things faster, notice things quicker, identify things faster.
I think there was a study that shows a fighter jet pilot a frame for 1/100th of a second, and the pilot was able to identify the plane that was shown to him.

So it really depends on how trained your body is to see it, and some natrual ability.


Though I have no doubt that some people can't see higher than '24 FPS', though, those are in the minority, just like people who can see differences at ultrahigh refresh rates.

I don't understand how people can perpetuate this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ though, considering they have the ability to test themselves (setting monitor refresh rate to 24hz, and back to 60hz.)
eyes dont see in fps

they notice movement and light/color differences

a led blinking at around 30+ blinks/sec (50% pwm) will appear to be on but dim compared to constant on (100% pwm)

but move the led and you can easily see its blinking, even at a much higher freq (2+khz)
The main reason for high fps being better is related to the pc not the observer. The theory is that the lower the hz the further behind the screen display is compared to where the game is up to. (The assumption is that the game is generating frames at or higher than the monitor hz rate. If the framerate is lower than the monitor's refresh rate the player might be at a disadvantage regardless.)

The example often used is a figure jumping over an obstacle. With low fps the figure might be close to landing on the ground in the game processing whereas on the display he is in mid-flight and so putting the player at a slight disadvantage if attempting to shoot at the figure.
En son Squirrell tarafından düzenlendi; 25 Şub 2020 @ 21:48
the human brain can compensate for the delays easily
it does it all of the time in the real world
reflex time is consistant, your brain knows how soon to send signals to make things happen in sync
Whats dumber is when adverts try to slow down the video by 1000x to show the difference between 144hz vs 240hz monitor.
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?
pc gaming and tv are not the same. a human mind works different when it is gaming. there is a difference...imho.
my2ct
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?
Human eyes definitely can not only see 24 or 60 fps.

The reason for 24 fps originally was that one decided 48 fps was enough for film but then didn't wanted to use that much film so 24 fps it become. Supposedly. 50 and 60 fps for TV is from the AC electricity being run at 50 and 60 Hz and being used as a clock.
İlk olarak perfect15 tarafından gönderildi:
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?
pc gaming and tv are not the same. a human mind works different when it is gaming. there is a difference...imho.
my2ct
Film has motion blur. As in the shutter isn't open for an infinitively short time it's open for a while and if things move they become blurry which help connect the images.

IMHO motion blur in games just seem unclear and laggy.
En son Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism tarafından düzenlendi; 26 Şub 2020 @ 4:21
Human eyes can only see 2 cpu cores
Edit: Because we have 2 eyes
En son Wraithsiege tarafından düzenlendi; 26 Şub 2020 @ 6:41
İlk olarak Aliquis Freedom & Ethnopluralism tarafından gönderildi:
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
What's the point of this debate? We're treating the eyes as if it's a camera. It's so much more complex than that. Saying human eyes can only see 24FPS, so therefore 120Hz is useless is the most idiotic statement. Truthfully? It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t to even say human can see FPS. We do not percieve thing in FPS. It goes much deeper than that, right?
Human eyes definitely can not only see 24 or 60 fps.

The reason for 24 fps originally was that one decided 48 fps was enough for film but then didn't wanted to use that much film so 24 fps it become. Supposedly. 50 and 60 fps for TV is from the AC electricity being run at 50 and 60 Hz and being used as a clock.
İlk olarak perfect15 tarafından gönderildi:
pc gaming and tv are not the same. a human mind works different when it is gaming. there is a difference...imho.
my2ct
Film has motion blur. As in the shutter isn't open for an infinitively short time it's open for a while and if things move they become blurry which help connect the images.

IMHO motion blur in games just seem unclear and laggy.
i would say it is a kind of codec thing...mpeg2 is for movies and pc gaming is kind of/sort of rendering with polygons...totally different technique. imo
İlk olarak Xenovia Quarta tarafından gönderildi:
Human eyes can only see 2 cpu cores
Edit: Because we have 2 eyes
human toes can smell ddr3 2666mhz ram
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
...human eyes can only see 24FPS...
I think we can safely say, 24 FPS would be the minimum rate where the eye sees motion as fluent, and anything lower would be detected more easily.
İlk olarak Talby tarafından gönderildi:
İlk olarak Red™ tarafından gönderildi:
...human eyes can only see 24FPS...
I think we can safely say, 24 FPS would be the minimum rate where the eye sees motion as fluent, and anything lower would be detected more easily.
even thats a stretch
with motion blur effects 24fps may look smooth
blink a led at 24hz and you can see its blinking

did a quick test with an arduino using its onboad led
blnk without delay example sketch
just changed the timer to 500/24 (20ms) (slightly faster turns out to 25/s)

easy to see its blinking

at 60 (8ms = 62.5/s) its less noticable, but you can tell its not all on next to its power led
shake it and you can see long blinks next to the power led

at 120 (4ms = 125/s) it looks more on, but still dim next to the power led
shake and you see shorter blinks
En son _I_ tarafından düzenlendi; 26 Şub 2020 @ 7:43
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Gönderilme Tarihi: 25 Şub 2020 @ 15:24
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