Planning an upgrade to Ryzen, undecided on most components.

[Altonu]

My current system is an i5 3470, 16GB DDR3, GTX 670 4GB VRAM.

Last month I finally upgraded to an SSD, and that was great for Windows boot times, but the impact was minimal for load times (save game loads and between mission loads etc) on the games I play most often (Civ 6, Battletech, X-Com, and a few other strategy and RPG games).

My plan is to upgrade my CPU, and by necessity, motherboard and ram in the next month or two, then upgrade my GPU in the fall (after Cyberpunk is released). At the moment Ryzen looks like the clear cost/performance choice.

I'm currently evaluating several scenarios.

Get a 2600x or 3600x now, then upgrade to a 4800x a year or two from now.

This seems like the most economical option for a good boost over what i have now, and another nice boost in a year or two where more games will (probably) be designed for 8 cores. I know the Ryzen 4000 line is supposed to be released this year and that it will supposedly still be socket AM4, but is this a certainty, and is how likely am I to be able to plop a 4800x in a current or previous gen motherboard?

Get a 3800x now and hope it is a good enough investment to last me 4+ years

The fact that I managed to get 6+ years out of my i5 3470 before reaching a frustration point with it means this is probably the safest option, although more expensive in the short term. It also leaves open the theoretical option of a later GPU upgrade if the motherboard supports it, but at a higher long run cost.

In either case, I want to choose a CPU that will not bottle neck an RTX 2070 (I plan to get either a 1660 super or a RTX 2060 super, but want a bit of wiggle room in case I change my mind).

I plan to go with some form of DDR4 3600

I also have done very little research on motherboards, but am li,Ely to go with something from MSI, ASUS or Asrock. I don't plan to overclock, dont care about RGB, and I don't know how valuable having PCIE 4 will be, but I do want stability and expandability. Advise on specific board and GPU pairings would be welcome .

Thanks for any advise and insights.

[mtono]

Originally posted by Escorve:

Originally posted by teh_germ:

i have a cheap msi mainboard. i am happy with it in my office pc. i think, afaik, that the expensive mobos are made for overclocking imho...am i wrong?

For AMD, it's about features and not so much for OC, since overclocking is nearly impossible to the point it beats precision boost and auto OC. You need a custom loop and a "golden" chip to get anywhere near Intel level OC.

i see ...ty

[professor dodge]

I use my rig for VR gaming and one thing i noticed immediately after upgrading was the tracking was smoother and didnt lose track anywhere near as much. the tracking being done on an external program and not the game engine I guess making use of extra core/threads? leaving no strain on the core running the game and vice versa.

I use to use alot of different tech in the very early days of VR which was pretty resource heavy but now im using wmr so im unsure how much resources other VR systems use but thinking about back then and now. it makes sense that drawing from your system whether thats draw's from the game engine or the VR tracking/system.

A bare bones vr ready pc and removing the limited gameplay factor of seated/roomscale. I wonder would an oculus rift cv1 one tracker setup vs two vs three result in more demand due to tracking pull and thus lose out on game engine (under powered system for the game) or the game engine being so demanding that there isnt any head room for the VR tracking system to consistently keep up (poor/jumpy tracking)

thats the only way I can describe what my thoughts were before upgrading. just gaming the system was fine still hit decent fps at 1080p and with VR "experience" ran flawlessly. but the moment the two overlayed on eachother my system was chocking.

old system
i5-4670 @ 3.4 boost 3.8
16gb dd3 cant remember speed but not amazing
1060 6gb

new system
Ryzen 5 3600 @ 3.6 boost 4.2
16gb ddr4 @ 3200hz
1060 6gb


Been night and day so far even after keeping the gpu the same. shows just how much cpu and cores/threads can play into everything in the coming years.

[xSOSxHawkens]

Quite a bit of good advice here. Stick to a better quality motherboard. R5-3600/x would both be great options for you...

@Escorve - On the 3600/2700x vs 3600x/3800x... Dont know about the 3600/x but you know that the 3800x is confirmed chery picked silicon over the 3700x right? The average auto OC on the 3800x matches or exceded the normal high end OC on the 3700x. Silicon lottery has published mass binning results and it is *blatantly* clear that nearly all 3800x chips clock substantially higher and at lower temps than the 3700x.

You are not paying for the stock speed boost, you are paying for the better silicon that *will* hit substantially better boost speeds above rated stock.

[emoticorpse]

Isn't there a chance the 4xxx cpu's will require a new socket?

[HunterOfPinkBunnyWabbits]

Originally posted by emoticorpse:

Isn't there a chance the 4xxx cpu's will require a new socket?

AMD says that 5xxx will require new MoBo but not 4xxx

[🦜Cloud Boy🦜]

Okay, Seems like B450 AORUS is not a very good Motherboard. By the appearance i thought it's a high quality board. There are twice more VRM choke than Tomahawk, and RGB stuffs, but actually it's a 4+3 phase VRM. Also poor cooling.

[mtono]

Originally posted by HunterOfPinkBunnyWabbits:

Originally posted by emoticorpse:

Isn't there a chance the 4xxx cpu's will require a new socket?

AMD says that 5xxx will require new MoBo but not 4xxx

hello,
i have been searching the web. all i could find was, that the 4000 ryzen cpu's are made in 5 nm technique. i would be very happy to read on the web about the 5000 series of ryzen cpu's. can you help me out?
thanks in advance!

[Magma Dragoon]

Originally posted by Altonu:

I also have done very little research on motherboards, but am li,Ely to go with something from MSI, ASUS or Asrock. I don't plan to overclock, dont care about RGB, and I don't know how valuable having PCIE 4 will be, but I do want stability and expandability. Advise on specific board and GPU pairings would be welcome .

If you want x570 and no bells and whistles the ASUS Prime X570-P is only $20 more than the B450 Tomahawk but it's x570 and has an additional M.2 slot.

[Altonu]

Thanks for all the replies (and the video link, a lot of that was over my head, but the takeaway from it was pretty clear), the Tomahawk Max sounds like a solid choice, but I will also research the Asus Prime X570 to compare.

The memory timing compatibility issue is something I was not aware of, so thanks for bringing that to my attention, I had the impression that 3600 was considered the sweet spot for price/performance on DDR4, but if there are compatibility issues, then I'd rather play it safe even if it is sub optimal.

I think I've narrowed down actual CPU choice to either a 3600, 3700x or 3800x. Not a lot more decisive than before, but should be a bit easier to research and compare just those three. Finding benchmarks for the things that matter to me is another matter (I've seen occasional benchmarks include Civ 6 and Total War, but those are rare to see overall).

A 1660 Super or ti, is probably more than adequate, but when I do play an immersive sim or RPG, I'd really like to be able to experience 60+fps ultra 1080p with some kind of shaders, so I'm skeptical of if 6GB VRAM will really be enough for future games (I've seen benchmarks where Shadow of the Tomb Raider comes close to maxing that, and I expect Cyberpunk to be even more demanding, but that is why I want to wait on a GPU upgrade until its out - until then what I have is good enough for now)

[xSOSxHawkens]

Originally posted by Altonu:

Thanks for all the replies (and the video link, a lot of that was over my head, but the takeaway from it was pretty clear), the Tomahawk Max sounds like a solid choice, but I will also research the Asus Prime X570 to compare.

The memory timing compatibility issue is something I was not aware of, so thanks for bringing that to my attention, I had the impression that 3600 was considered the sweet spot for price/performance on DDR4, but if there are compatibility issues, then I'd rather play it safe even if it is sub optimal.

I think I've narrowed down actual CPU choice to either a 3600, 3700x or 3800x. Not a lot more decisive than before, but should be a bit easier to research and compare just those three. Finding benchmarks for the things that matter to me is another matter (I've seen occasional benchmarks include Civ 6 and Total War, but those are rare to see overall).

A 1660 Super or ti, is probably more than adequate, but when I do play an immersive sim or RPG, I'd really like to be able to experience 60+fps ultra 1080p with some kind of shaders, so I'm skeptical of if 6GB VRAM will really be enough for future games (I've seen benchmarks where Shadow of the Tomb Raider comes close to maxing that, and I expect Cyberpunk to be even more demanding, but that is why I want to wait on a GPU upgrade until its out - until then what I have is good enough for now)

Some specific things to think about.

CPU first, and the choice should be between the 3600 (or 3600x if oyu want) vs the 3800x. Yes, many early reviews on the 3800x suggested it was not worth the ~50$-80$ increase over the 3700x, however large scale binning has shown conclusively that the 3800x is made with chery picked cores and *will* clock higher consistantly. I cannot confirm if it is worth it for binning reasons on the lower end 3600 vs 3600x though. Biggest thing, decide between R5 and R7.

Once you know if you are getting a big boy CPU (R7+) or not then look at motherboard. If you are going lower end then you can get decent lower end boards and will be fine. You dont need insane VRM's to run an R5. You *do* want the higher end motherboards and power delivery with R7 or above though. If going x570 do serious research. I went with the slightly pricey but wonderfull MSI MEG x570 Unify and love it. If you plan on running R7/R9 try to get at least a 10 phase power delivery system minimum, (8+2) or preferably better. Mine runs 12+2+1.

3600 is the sweet spot, especially for AMD and you want to stick to it and not faster or lower, with as tight as timing as possible. AMD CPU's can be directly affected in performance big time by the link they have to memory, and the speed that is used to comunicate internally due to the memory speeds. Top infinity fabric speed according to AMD is 1800Mhz, which is the base clock for 3600Mhz RAM. Any faster ram and the IF switches into a lower 2:1 ratio, and any slower RAM and it keeps 1:1 but slows it down to match the ram, reducing your effetice CPU performance (not core speed).

Best bet for AMD is 3600 as tight as can be with 2 sticks ideally. GSkil make a line of ram called Neo that is certified compatible with AMD builds. Generaly within a few bucks of the non-neo kits, sometimes less.

[Altonu]

I don't want to rush into a final decision, but I am leaning more toward the 3800x side.

Would the Tomahawk Max or ASUS Prime X570-P be a good fit for the 3800x, or only for the 3600?

Either way, it does look like i need to do a fair bit more research into motherboards and memory.

[emoticorpse]

Originally posted by Altonu:

I don't want to rush into a final decision, but I am leaning more toward the 3800x side.

Would the Tomahawk Max or ASUS Prime X570-P be a good fit for the 3800x, or only for the 3600?

Either way, it does look like i need to do a fair bit more research into motherboards and memory.

I'd choose 3700x. It's a good in between, and leave it at stock and you should be able to open yourself up to more choices of motherboards and any combo should work good.

[Altonu]

After a bit more research, I've decided that the 3600 should still be a substantial boost over my current system.

I found a benchmark from Gamers Nexus (in a youtube video on the 3600x) that had Civ 6 benchmarks. Their test of course did not include my i5 3470, but, but they did the Gathering Storm AI benchmark which I was able to compare to my current system. The Gathering Storm AI benchmark is a pretty good reflection of typical late game play on a large or huge map, so it represents one of the primary gains I hope to see with a new CPU.

According to their benchmark, a 3600 got an average AI turn time of 35.2 seconds, with a 3600x getting 35.0 and a 3700x getting 33.7 seconds (3800x was not tested). My current system gets an average AI turn time of 57.66. In theory that test should be mostly CPU dependent, but they did run it with an RTX 2080 Ti, so I may not see those exact values, but it should be reasonably close.

The extra ~135 a 3700x costs above a 3600 is hard to justify even if the peace of mind from the extra cores and slightly higher clock speed would be nice to have.

I have not decided on the motherboard. I'm leaning toward the ASUS Prime x570, but its currently out of stock at NewEgg, and about ~14 more at Amazon. I didn't even know what VRMs were or why they are important until I started researching current motherboards, but it sounds like its worth the extra cost over the Tomahawk since it has better cooling, and and it also supports 3600 DDR4 (from what I can tell, the Tomahawk only supports 3200 unless a bios revision changes that). Also a bit more confident to future upgrade potential with the Prime x570 even if that upgrade is just putting in a 3800x in a couple years if games start to see a huge benefit from extra cores.

[r.linder]

Originally posted by Altonu:

After a bit more research, I've decided that the 3600 should still be a substantial boost over my current system.

I found a benchmark from Gamers Nexus (in a youtube video on the 3600x) that had Civ 6 benchmarks. Their test of course did not include my i5 3470, but, but they did the Gathering Storm AI benchmark which I was able to compare to my current system. The Gathering Storm AI benchmark is a pretty good reflection of typical late game play on a large or huge map, so it represents one of the primary gains I hope to see with a new CPU.

According to their benchmark, a 3600 got an average AI turn time of 35.2 seconds, with a 3600x getting 35.0 and a 3700x getting 33.7 seconds (3800x was not tested). My current system gets an average AI turn time of 57.66. In theory that test should be mostly CPU dependent, but they did run it with an RTX 2080 Ti, so I may not see those exact values, but it should be reasonably close.

The extra ~135 a 3700x costs above a 3600 is hard to justify even if the peace of mind from the extra cores and slightly higher clock speed would be nice to have.

I have not decided on the motherboard. I'm leaning toward the ASUS Prime x570, but its currently out of stock at NewEgg, and about ~14 more at Amazon. I didn't even know what VRMs were or why they are important until I started researching current motherboards, but it sounds like its worth the extra cost over the Tomahawk since it has better cooling, and and it also supports 3600 DDR4 (from what I can tell, the Tomahawk only supports 3200 unless a bios revision changes that). Also a bit more confident to future upgrade potential with the Prime x570 even if that upgrade is just putting in a 3800x in a couple years if games start to see a huge benefit from extra cores.

1. The core longevity of Ryzen 7 is a bit moot -- those cores will be probably much weaker than 4000 series Ryzen 5 cores. Same goes for Ryzen 9, since the core performance from 5 to 9 is not very substantial, the only actual differences are in core counts and slightly better IPC.
All you need is the 3600, and by time that becomes obsolete in games, the rest of 3000 series will be as well. It'll take a few years at least. The difference in FPS between a 3600X and 3900X is less than 15~20 FPS at best, but the latter costs over twice as much.

2. You don't need X570. Save money on that so you can get a better GPU.

3. B450 has bad support above 3200 MHz, yes, but you don't need more than 3200 MHz RAM. The difference between 3200 CL14~16 and 3600 CL16 kits like Trident Z Neo is very small and not at all worth paying more for. It only makes sense for Ryzen 9 users who need the extra memory speed. Gamers won't notice the difference 3200 and 3600 unless they actually do individual benchmarks, but the difference is a few FPS.

[Altonu]

Those are some good points.

If it were only a $20 difference, I probably would still go for the X570 Prime and 3600 memory, but with current prices, its more like 30-40, so putting that toward a GPU is probably better use of it (it is roughly the cost difference between a GTX 1660 and a 1660 super).