Do "surround/5.1/7.1" headphones actually give beliveable directional sound?

[HuesudO_spn]

I posted a thread about this topic, but I've realized I didn't ask the right question and it has become too long to start all over, so here is a fresh one.

Some home cinema 5.1/7.1 systems I've tried have a dolby surround/pro logic function that takes a 2 channel stereo source and plays it over all speakers, with some additional effects like echo, reverb, pitch changes, lower volume, etc, on the additional speakers (center and rears). I personally prefer a stereo setup with clear, crisp good quality sound over that.

With 6-8 channel directional source on a 5.1/7.1 speaker setup, I can clearly tell where all the different sounds coming from, and instantaneously know if a sound is coming from the front, from behind, from a side or somewhere in between with my eyes closed.

So, back to the title question. Do "surround/5.1/7.1" headphones actually give beliveable directional sound, or just stereo plus some fancy effects effects?

[RGX12]

I assume your question involves "virtual" surround imparted to standard 2-channel headphones, and not actual surround-sound headphones. If so, I'd say the psycho-acoustic trickery has gotten pretty good in modern times. The surround effect comes primarily (at least in Dolby's case) from re-mixing the subwoofer / LFE signal into the left and right channels in equal proportion, and the other channels are reencoded into two channels along with signal processing (which is essentially just a certain level of added delay), in order to widen the soundstage and simulate the "spatial properties" of the original audio.

Is it identical to true 5/6/7.1 surround sound? No, but given the way the human ear functions, the "trickery" works pretty well, and IMO is impressive overall.

More info:

https://www.quora.com/How-does-7-1-surround-sound-work-with-headphones

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/5235vx/eli5_how_does_virtual_surround_sound_work_with/

https://www.howtogeek.com/295722/whats-the-difference-between-virtual-and-true-surround-sound-gaming-headsets/

(Edited to post additional links)

[Revelene]

Believable? Sorta. Better directional than stereo, sure... but in the end, it is just stereo with some fancy effects.

If you appreciate audio quality, then I'd stay away from any virtual surround. It is all compressed, with effects out the wazoo.

[HuesudO_spn]

RGX12 eredeti hozzászólása:

I assume your question involves "virtual" surround imparted to standard 2-channel headphones, and not actual surround-sound headphones. If so, I'd say the psycho-acoustic trickery has gotten pretty good in modern times. The surround effect comes primarily (at least in Dolby's case) from re-mixing the subwoofer / LFE signal into the left and right channels in equal proportion, and the other channels are reencoded into two channels along with signal processing (which is essentially just a certain level of added delay), in order to widen the soundstage and simulate the "spatial properties" of the original audio.

Is it identical to true 5/6/7.1 surround sound? No, but given the way the human ear functions, the "trickery" works pretty well, and IMO is impressive overall.

More info:

https://www.quora.com/How-does-7-1-surround-sound-work-with-headphones

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/5235vx/eli5_how_does_virtual_surround_sound_work_with/

https://www.howtogeek.com/295722/whats-the-difference-between-virtual-and-true-surround-sound-gaming-headsets/

(Edited to post additional links)

Thanks.

My sound card software already has "room effects" that add reverb, echo, muffling. IMO, they are garbage

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Believable? Sorta. Better directional than stereo, sure... but in the end, it is just stereo with some fancy effects.

If you appreciate audio quality, then I'd stay away from any virtual surround. It is all compressed, with effects out the wazoo.

Thank you too. That's what I needed to know. I'll just say away from virtual surround, and visit some store that hopefully has some headphones on trial that are not playing at full volume, with the bass on the equalizer boosted off the roof.

[Revelene]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Believable? Sorta. Better directional than stereo, sure... but in the end, it is just stereo with some fancy effects.

If you appreciate audio quality, then I'd stay away from any virtual surround. It is all compressed, with effects out the wazoo.

Thank you too. That's what I needed to know. I'll just say away from virtual surround, and visit some store that hopefully has some headphones on trial that are not playing at full volume, with the bass on the equalizer boosted off the roof.

I wouldn't say stay away, but rather just not buy hardware specifically for it.

Just get a good pair of stereo headphones and use one of the many free software options for virtual surround that is available. You can turn it on and off as needed. That is what I do, I turn it on for some games, and turn it off for music and media.

[Talby]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Believable? Sorta. Better directional than stereo, sure... but in the end, it is just stereo with some fancy effects.

If you appreciate audio quality, then I'd stay away from any virtual surround. It is all compressed, with effects out the wazoo.

Thank you too. That's what I needed to know. I'll just say away from virtual surround, and visit some store that hopefully has some headphones on trial that are not playing at full volume, with the bass on the equalizer boosted off the roof.

Fully disagree, this is not how modern vsurround works.

RGX12 eredeti hozzászólása:

...I'd say the psycho-acoustic trickery has gotten pretty good in modern times...
Is it identical to true 5/6/7.1 surround sound? No, but given the way the human ear functions, the "trickery" works pretty well, and IMO is impressive overall.

Fully agree, this is also my experience with modern vsurround techniques (and the source is proper)

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Just get a good pair of stereo headphones and use one of the many free software options for virtual surround that is available. You can turn it on and off as needed. That is what I do, I turn it on for some games, and turn it off for music and media.

Finally, some common sense, and I can see why OP is confused. Although, it's pretty apparent you have not heard a properly encoded live concert with good v-surround - with a properly encoded AAC or AC3 source, it can sound nearly as good in headphone vsurround without any distortion. Almost as good as speakers, dare I say :) If only I could listen to a live concert at 3am, the rest of my family would not appreciate it at all. Headphone vsurround is a very good alternative when needed.

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

I wouldn't say stay away, but rather just not buy hardware specifically for it.

This is a tough call, the Sound Blaster Play!3 can give you higher resolution vsurround with better decoding techniques that does sound better at a relatively low cost. Can also drive high-impedance cans as a bonus. Sounds like you're biased against that :)

[HuesudO_spn]

Do you know any free vsurround software to try it? My headphones are old and crusty, but they still work and sound just fine. If it convinces me, I may go for a paid one, or get vsurround headphones.

[Revelene]

Talby eredeti hozzászólása:

Fully disagree, this is not how modern vsurround works.

Actually, yeah. The gist of it, at least. It is pretty much just putting 6/8 channels into 2 and using different techniques to fool you into believing there is more than 2 sources of sound. Lots of effects are used as well, which echo is a prime example of one that is overly used and processed a lot.

Talby eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Just get a good pair of stereo headphones and use one of the many free software options for virtual surround that is available. You can turn it on and off as needed. That is what I do, I turn it on for some games, and turn it off for music and media.

Finally, some common sense, and I can see why OP is confused. Although, it's pretty apparent you have not heard a properly encoded live concert with good v-surround - with a properly encoded AAC or AC3 source, it can sound nearly as good in headphone vsurround without any distortion. Almost as good as speakers, dare I say :) If only I could listen to a live concert at 3am, the rest of my family would not appreciate it at all. Headphone vsurround is a very good alternative when needed.

I have heard all kinds of virtual surround sound, and they all introduce some sort of artificial effect and just sound fake.

Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I do see the point of having the option. I use it for games a lot.

Talby eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

I wouldn't say stay away, but rather just not buy hardware specifically for it.

This is a tough call, the Sound Blaster Play!3 can give you higher resolution vsurround with better decoding techniques that does sound better at a relatively low cost. Can also drive high-impedance cans as a bonus. Sounds like you're biased against that :)

I say this because there are so many free software alternatives, and they don't take up any PCI-E slots, either.

Ive never found a sound card that could push high impedance headphones that well, or even fairly low impedance headphones for the most part. Most seem to really show weakness at 32 ohm or higher, regardless of the "supports 600 ohm headphones" marketing garbage.

Biased against what? Sound cards? I am. Waste of PCI-E lanes. Even for professional use, they are becoming a thing of the past. The only market holding onto them seems to be the gaming market.

I use external means for audio, completely bypassing the noisy internals of the PC entirely.

[Revelene]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

Do you know any free vsurround software to try it? My headphones are old and crusty, but they still work and sound just fine. If it convinces me, I may go for a paid one, or get vsurround headphones.

You have Windows 10? Just right click on the audio icon on the task bar and select spatial sound. No download needed. You can use Windows Sonic for free. Dolby Atmos has a trial, but it ultimately is not free.

Your motherboard audio has (should have) the option as well. Be sure to have your Realtek audio driver up to date. You should be able to enable it in the settings.

Dolby Headphones as well, which came before Dolby Atmos.

Razer's surround works on any headphones as well.

Have fun testing.

[HuesudO_spn]

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

You have Windows 10? Just right click on the audio icon on the task bar and select spatial sound. No download needed. You can use Windows Sonic for free. Dolby Atmos has a trial, but it ultimately is not free.

Your motherboard audio has (should have) the option as well. Be sure to have your Realtek audio driver up to date. You should be able to enable it in the settings.

Dolby Headphones as well, which came before Dolby Atmos.

Razer's surround works on any headphones as well.

Have fun testing.

Thanks.
Windows 7 here :-/
My sound card is VIA. It has some effects, but nothing more than "environment emulation" and stuff like that.
I'll give razer surround a try.

[Revelene]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

You have Windows 10? Just right click on the audio icon on the task bar and select spatial sound. No download needed. You can use Windows Sonic for free. Dolby Atmos has a trial, but it ultimately is not free.

Your motherboard audio has (should have) the option as well. Be sure to have your Realtek audio driver up to date. You should be able to enable it in the settings.

Dolby Headphones as well, which came before Dolby Atmos.

Razer's surround works on any headphones as well.

Have fun testing.

Thanks.
Windows 7 here :-/
My sound card is VIA. It has some effects, but nothing more than "environment emulation" and stuff like that.
I'll give razer surround a try.

Win7? That is unfortunate. Sonic is pretty good, with Dolby Atmos being even better. Might want to give Win10 a go.

Razer Surround is passable, but unfortunately they arbitrarily block you out of most of the settings, unless you have their headset.

[HuesudO_spn]

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Razer Surround is passable, but unfortunately they arbitrarily block you out of most of the settings, unless you have their headset.

That's how for-profit businesses work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Revelene]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

Razer Surround is passable, but unfortunately they arbitrarily block you out of most of the settings, unless you have their headset.

That's how for-profit businesses work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, at least you get to freely use part of it, though.

Software, like from Creative, is completely proprietary, even though most of the virtual surround processing is software side anyways.

They do have hardware accelerated tasks on some implementations of their hardware, but it isn't anything that a modern cpu couldn't do easily without even a 1 percent load.

But yeah, it is all about that profit. Luckily, we do have options. Options are always good.

[HuesudO_spn]

I've been trying Razer Surround Freeloader Edition on Arma 3, and I have mixed feelings.
On one hand, all it does is attenuating the sounds coming from the rear in a fancy way. It just doesn't feel like natural directional sound.
On the other hand, that attenuation gives a clue of which way the sound is coming from.
The biggest problem is that all sounds become noticeably less clear.

Elite Dangerous has a similar function built in called DTS:Headphone X or something like that, which does pretty much the same.

I think Alien Isolation does something like that too out of the box, but more subtly, with less loss in clarity.

[Revelene]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

I've been trying Razer Surround Freeloader Edition on Arma 3, and I have mixed feelings.
On one hand, all it does is attenuating the sounds coming from the rear in a fancy way. It just doesn't feel like natural directional sound.
On the other hand, that attenuation gives a clue of which way the sound is coming from.
The biggest problem is that all sounds become noticeably less clear.

Elite Dangerous has a similar function built in called DTS:Headphone X or something like that, which does pretty much the same.

I think Alien Isolation does something like that too out of the box, but more subtly, with less loss in clarity.

Oh, it won't ever feel natural. It is still two physical drivers, afterall.

Personally, I believe Windows Sonic to be a bit better than Razer's itteration. And then Dolby Atmos being even better. Might want to think about upgrading to Win10, besides, it has a boat load of other improvements over Win7 as well.

[Talby]

HuesudO_esp eredeti hozzászólása:

...It just doesn't feel like natural directional sound....

Not sure what headphones you're using, any type of headphone surround will improve quite a bit with semi-open and open-back headphones due to their open nature - anything you listen to will sound feels like they are all around you (which makes it nearly perfect for vsurround) instead of isolating the sound to "in your head" (where vsurround feels much more artificial). More details about closed-back vs open-back here[www.howtogeek.com] if you are interested. Still recommend the SR850s as best bang-per-buck headphones, really good quality for the price you pay.

Revelene eredeti hozzászólása:

...Personally, I believe Windows Sonic to be a bit better than Razer's itteration. And then Dolby Atmos being even better. Might want to think about upgrading to Win10, besides, it has a boat load of other improvements over Win7 as well.

Agree on both points!