Do surround headphones actually give convincing surround sound?

[HuesudO_spn]

First and foremost, this question must have been asked before, but I couldn't find it here. I only found this post from a guy who doesn't seem to have actually used surround headphones ever (or maybe he actually did buy some fake ones).

Second, I know how surround headphones are supossed to work, either true or virtual surround. It all boils down to how the shape of the ear changes sounds and how the brain uses those changes to estimate where a sound is coming from. But doesn't a game with a half decent sound design do that already for stereo headphones?

My current stereo headphones sound great, but they are quite old and they are scabby, literally.
I was searching around Amazon the other day and found some surprisingly good deals, like these ones[www.amazon.com]. The reviews are good, the price isn't bad at all... it all just seems too good to be true.

The way pretty much everyone uses stereo headphones and speakers to locate a sound in a 3D game is this: if you can hear it from both sides and can see it on screen, it's coming from the front; if you hear it from both sides but can't see it, it's coming from behind; if you hear it only on your right ear, it's coming from your right side. Pretty simple. You can also turn around and hear how the sound intensity changes on each side.

TL;DR: The big question is: do surround headphones actually give credible, instantaneous, directional sound?

I haven't tried surround headphones before, and I don't really know what to expect. I could buy some cheaper surround headphones to try them out first, but they may end up sounding like garbage and end up being a waste of money. And to buy some like those I linked for them to sound just like glorified stereo, I'd rather keep the ones I already have and save the money for something else.

[Talby]

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

I finally gave in and bought some headphones for 36€. They should arrive this wednesday. I will let you know if they live up to expectations.

So what did you get? Was checking out amazon germany, they have the Samson SR850 I previously mentioned for 27€ which is a really good AGK clone (same OEM as superlux, with the more comfy velour pads).

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

Also, when I speak of surround sound, I'm not talking about just a stereo source playing on all speakers, what I'm talking about is directional sound; if something explodes behind your character in a game, you hear the explosion coming from behind you, not just coming from all the speakers but just sounding more muffled.

yes exactly, you absolutely have to try one of the built-in surround modes on your existing headphones just to give it a try.

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

...Anyways, look, surround sound is completely software based. You are buying hardware to produce proprietary virtualized surround, which is proprietary for the sake of being proprietary.

There are so many different kinds of virtualized surround. Many that are free to download and use, and even Windows comes with surround virtualization.

It is merely a simulation, taking 6/8 channels into 2, using an algorithm. How they go about it can be different. Some use a lot of post processes, like echo (which I consider detrimental to audio quality). And here is another catch, every game and application will be different. One could be better on virtual surround A, while another would sound better on virtual surround B. It just isn't that simple.

Apparently you have never heard Cirrus Logic's implementation of SBS on a "gaming" headset. It's bad when you are adjusting the minimum volume level from mute to the first increment, and that's too loud. Oh, it's the windows driver I thought - plugged it into linux - same problem. Crappy software on crappy hardware. It sometimes is that simple.

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

And you know what happens if a game doesn't implement decent sound in the first place? Then it doesn't really matter.

But buying a sound card for virtual surround seems rather silly to me, especially when there are just so many free options available that don't require hardware. Waste of PCI-E lanes. Just enable spatial sound or download something free.

At this point it just sounds like you have not heard the better surround implementations (with better DSPs and software) and just giving excuses not to. I can hear the difference between the G430 usb sound card and the built-in realtek / windows sonic software, it's a bit better. Not to mention, it's also awesome that I can bring that usb sound card in my laptop bag for 100% consistent sound on the go, I think it's worth it for both games and movies that sound better.

[HuesudO_spn]

I'm going off-topic here, but the last posts have done that already, so here's my two cents.

Yesterday I borrowed some cheap stereo speakers, plugged them on the black minijack on the rear of my case, and combined them with my 2.1s made a functional quadraphonic system in an instant, with directional sound, with my simple on-board sound card (with the poor quality of the cheap speakers, of course).
All I had to do was simply change the speaker configuration on windows from stereo to quadraphonic an off it went.

I tried it on Elite Dangerous without changing anything on the game settings and I could tell if a ship was passing me from behind without having to look at the scanner. On ArmA, shots and bullet crack came from behind, the echo from the front.

I personally don't think I need to buy an expensive sound card when my current one can give directional sound and outputs up to 192 KHz, 24 bit (I keep it at 48 KHz most of the time though, for compatibility. I could try increasing it to see if I notice any difference).

The best speakers are wasted if the player you are using outputs with a low sampling rate and bit depth. The best player is wasted if you use it with cheap plastic 2 inch speakers. And the best sound system is wasted if the file you play on it is encoded on a low sampling rate/bit depth.

To finish off, I want to say that "3D sound" is another marketing gimmick. In real life, we can only tell which direction a sound is coming from on a horizontal plane. SmarterEveryDay explains it all very well here

For those curious, my motherboard is an ASUS M4A87TD EVO (another marketing gimmick), with an integrated VIA VT1818S sound chip. My speakers are a Creative 2.1 set that is more than 15 years old.

[Talby]

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

...Yesterday I borrowed some cheap stereo speakers, plugged them on the black minijack on the rear of my case, and combined them with my 2.1s made a functional quadraphonic system in an instant, with directional sound, with my simple on-board sound card (with the poor quality of the cheap speakers, of course).
All I had to do was simply change the speaker configuration on windows from stereo to quadraphonic an off it went.

I tried it on Elite Dangerous without changing anything on the game settings and I could tell if a ship was passing me from behind without having to look at the scanner. On ArmA, shots and bullet crack came from behind, the echo from the front.

I think you will be a bit surprised when you try out v-surround using plain-old headphones, while not as good as the quad speaker setup I have no problems getting directional audio using any of the headphone vsurround options I have mentioned previously. A few games would be difficult without surround, namely Kholat.

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

I personally don't think I need to buy an expensive sound card when my current one can give directional sound and outputs up to 192 KHz, 24 bit (I keep it at 48 KHz most of the time though, for compatibility. I could try increasing it to see if I notice any difference).

IMO the built-in headphone vsurround works well enough to give detectable audio direction, the other types with better software and DSPs just give better audible "resolution" so to speak - earlier I mentioned a "smoother directional transition", where the drop off from one direction to the other is more subtle or better put, has more steps of progression from the transition from one ear to the other. As previously mentioned, "its just software", and with all software there is a varying degree of quality - the free ones are ok, and usually good enough.

[Revelene]

Talby님이 먼저 게시:

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

...Anyways, look, surround sound is completely software based. You are buying hardware to produce proprietary virtualized surround, which is proprietary for the sake of being proprietary.

There are so many different kinds of virtualized surround. Many that are free to download and use, and even Windows comes with surround virtualization.

It is merely a simulation, taking 6/8 channels into 2, using an algorithm. How they go about it can be different. Some use a lot of post processes, like echo (which I consider detrimental to audio quality). And here is another catch, every game and application will be different. One could be better on virtual surround A, while another would sound better on virtual surround B. It just isn't that simple.

Apparently you have never heard Cirrus Logic's implementation of SBS on a "gaming" headset. It's bad when you are adjusting the minimum volume level from mute to the first increment, and that's too loud. Oh, it's the windows driver I thought - plugged it into linux - same problem. Crappy software on crappy hardware. It sometimes is that simple.

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

And you know what happens if a game doesn't implement decent sound in the first place? Then it doesn't really matter.

But buying a sound card for virtual surround seems rather silly to me, especially when there are just so many free options available that don't require hardware. Waste of PCI-E lanes. Just enable spatial sound or download something free.

At this point it just sounds like you have not heard the better surround implementations (with better DSPs and software) and just giving excuses not to. I can hear the difference between the G430 usb sound card and the built-in realtek / windows sonic software, it's a bit better. Not to mention, it's also awesome that I can bring that usb sound card in my laptop bag for 100% consistent sound on the go, I think it's worth it for both games and movies that sound better.

I never said which was better or worse. You are going into a completely different topic.

I merely mentioned that there are a lot of options, and that it is all software based, rather than hardware based (which is what the advertising crew wants you to believe).

The only thing I truly thing I said about being bad, was the use of PCI-E lanes. That is about it.

You really want my opinion? It is all garbage. Post processing garbage that ruins the original quality of the audio. I'm about preserving quality, not about adding flashy filters and processing.

And yes I've heard just about all of them. Too much artificial noise and fake stuff. I can hear the quality of the sound diminish with every single implementation of virtual surround, as that is in the nature of the process.

If I want surround, I'll use my surround sound system.

[Talby]

I can respect the purist within you, much a reminder of my first visit to Radio City music hall many moons ago - it was then I fully realized the whole point of surround sound altogether! To anyone who has not seen / heard an orchestra play in an enclosed venue it is truly an awesome experience.

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

...I never said which was better or worse. You are going into a completely different topic.

Like op-amps? seriously...

Revelene님이 먼저 게시:

I merely mentioned that there are a lot of options, and that it is all software based, rather than hardware based (which is what the advertising crew wants you to believe).

a DSP is a hardware chip that requires programming, otherwise known as software. Is windows 98 running on a Pentium MMX the same as Windows 10 running on Ryzen? I think you see where I am getting at.

[HuesudO_spn]

Well, the headphones arrived today. But the software CD was broken, and I couldn't find the manufacturer's website (though being a Chinese manufacturer, maybe they don't even have one). Returned to Amazon right the ♥♥♥♥ away.

I'd like to try 3d headsets on a physical store, but the ones I know only have regular stereos on display with music playing.

[Talby]

Here's a another quick way to try out how surround in a game would sound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk

Try it with your quad-speaker setup, and then your headphones to compare.

If the headphone surround does work out for you, I highly recommend the semi-open Samson SR850[www.amazon.es] headphones I previously mentioned, probably the best bang-per-buck at that price. If you need a mic, the Zalman ZM-MIC1[www.amazon.es] is good enough and both are cheaper the price of the cheap chinese set you just got.

For surround modes, a quick summary:

- use in-game "headphones" audio setting to use the virtual surround built-into the game.
- use the Realtek "headphone virtualization" option in your realtek sound manager
- use the Windows 10 "sonic" spatial sound (available in windows versions 1703 and higher)
- use a 3rd party virtualization app like Razer Surround
- use a sound card that supports vsurround like Sound Blaster Play!3

[HuesudO_spn]

Looks like a lot of games output depend on how the speakers are configured in Windows audio settings.

I'm thinking that, if the headphones have a virtual surround software and whatnot, but Windows recognizes them as stereo only, the games will output in stereo.

Some home cinema systems I have tried have a dolby pro logic functions. All it does is taking a stereo source and plays it on all speakers, with the rear ones at a lower volume and with some frequencies muffled. But that's not directional sound at all. I prefer a decent stereo system over that many times more. Is that what surround headphones do? If so, they are definitely not for me.

If I wanted stereo headphones, I would try some on a nearby store. Not that it's a good test either, because they usually have music blasting at full volume on a crappy player -low bit depth, low sampling rate-, with very crappy equalizations with the bass off the roof and all distorted.

[Talby]

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

Looks like a lot of games output depend on how the speakers are configured in Windows audio settings.

Yes, it largely depends on the game and what options are present in the audio output selections. In the case of CSGO I previously mentioned, good guide here[www.csgoexpert.com], the sound selection its set to "headphone" about 1/2 way down. This will use the built in driver to provide vsurround, while windows itself is set to 2-channel L/R only.

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

I'm thinking that, if the headphones have a virtual surround software and whatnot, but Windows recognizes them as stereo only, the games will output in stereo.

Yes in this case, where windows itself is set to 2-channel L/R only, the sound source is encoded with surround and will output correctly. Just like the video I linked to if you have tried it.

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

Some home cinema systems I have tried have a dolby pro logic functions. All it does is taking a stereo source and plays it on all speakers, with the rear ones at a lower volume and with some frequencies muffled. But that's not directional sound at all. I prefer a decent stereo system over that many times more. Is that what surround headphones do? If so, they are definitely not for me.

1980 just called, they want Dolby Pro Logic back. In all seriousness, DTS Neo:6 is a a very good example of a better, newer method of reconstructing 2.1, 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 sources to 3.1, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 channel systems.

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

If I wanted stereo headphones, I would try some on a nearby store. Not that it's a good test either, because they usually have music blasting at full volume on a crappy player -low bit depth, low sampling rate-, with very crappy equalizations with the bass off the roof and all distorted.

True, although the majority of headsets these days are exactly that - stereo headphones with a mic attached, and they use software to get vsurround encoding just like your old-school stereo headphones.

[HuesudO_spn]

Talby님이 먼저 게시:

1980 just called, they want Dolby Pro Logic back. In all seriousness, DTS Neo:6 is a a very good example of a better, newer method of reconstructing 2.1, 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 sources to 3.1, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 channel systems.

I know, I know. Dolby Digital and DTS give true positional sound. Dolby Surround and Pro Logic basically just add echo. But for Dolby or DTS to work, the source has to have 6 or 8 different channels. Dolby or DTS don't convert a stereo source into positional sound (although players can still convert the 6 or 8 channels of whatever they are playing to a stereo output).

I've realized I didn't ask the right question, but this thread has become too long to start all over. I've posted a new one here.

[pasa]

HuesudO_esp님이 먼저 게시:

I know, I know. Dolby Digital and DTS give true positional sound. Dolby Surround and Pro Logic basically just add echo.

Not really, see detalis of DPL here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic

[HuesudO_spn]

pasa님이 먼저 게시:

Not really, see detalis of DPL here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic

Yep, that's true. But for Dolby Pro Logic to output directional sound, the source needs to be encoded with a dolby pro logic signal. It could work with a single wire carrying the signal, just like Dolby Digital does with a single optic cable, but the source still has to have all the tracks for all the different channels. A simple uncodified stereo track won't become directional with pro logic alone.

What the multi-channel, directional sound speakers for PC I know do (or at least the ones I've seen, maybe everything is moving to USB now) is that the source sends each track to each individual speaker through a regular uncodified analogue signal over three or four stereo minijacks (depending on the number of channels the system is configured to have).