German Store Restrictions - We Need a Better Solution

[flyomotive]

I'm writing as a dedicated Steam user of over 10 years, with more than 1000 games and several thousands of Euros spent on the platform.

Steam has always been my go-to platform for gaming - it's user-friendly, innovative, and has consistently put users first. However, this month an incredibly frustrating situation has come about in regards to German regulations and Steam's missing age verification system:

Recently, a significant number of games have become completely inaccessible in the German Steam store due to missing age ratings. This affects both upcoming releases many have been excited about, like Subnautica 2 to name only one example, as well as recently released titles like Flight of Nova, an impressive space flight sim that I can no longer even view in the store. Even beloved older titles like Animal Super Squad and The Banner Saga have disappeared. Given that their developers already had months to fill out the Age Rating survey, it's unlikely that it will happen at all for lots of such games.

What's particularly concerning is that smaller and older games are disproportionately affected - and these are often the titles where Steam is the only platform to play them! The inability to even discover which games are affected, as they're completely removed from view, makes this situation even more frustrating.

While I understand that Valve is forced to comply with the short-sighted German regulations, the current implementation feels overly restrictive, especially given the robust age verification infrastructure already available in Germany and the EU (digital ID, passport, Postident, etc.).

It's worth noting that Steam has previously faced fines for breaching EU geo-blocking regulations (Regulation 2018/302), though I understand this is a complex situation.

Many of us would gladly verify our age through any of these established methods to regain access to the full Steam store.

Questions for Valve:

- Are there plans to implement an age verification solution?
- Could you share any timeline for addressing these issues?
- Is there any way for users to help expedite this process or verify their age on an individual basis?

Right now, many of us are forced to use other platforms just to stay informed about games, browse an uncensored storefront, track wishlisted games, and buy and play older games - something that is impossible for Steam-exclusive titles. There has got to be a better solution.

Thanks for your concern.

[Mia]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Valve decided to block these games, not our government. There are enough options to still have things available, Valve however decided to just block instead of providing said options. But you know what? I'll vote better with my wallet and buy on other platforms instead. Even for Steam-only games there are methods to acquire a key. :)

For a few years, both Brazilian and German laws have required that games in those markets have a content rating to help customers find age-appropriate content. For Germany in particular there has been a legal debate whether this requirement only applies to games newly introduced to the market or also to the back catalogue.

The German regulatory authority BZKJ has expressed to us their interpretation of the law applies to all games on Steam, including ones that were launched before the law came into effect. As a result, we will be required to only offer games for sale in Germany that have either been through Steam's built-in rating process or have a rating issued by Germany's rating agency, USK.

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamworks/announcements/detail/4183351393029705363

It wasn't Valve's decision. If it were Valve's decision, why would they have made the decision differently for your country than for every other country in existence?

Ok, again since you still do not understand it and pretend to be an expert:
The rating requirement is enforced by the BzKJ as you stated, which is §14a JuSchG. However the selfsame law states that movies and games are exempt from the rating if the platform locks said content behind an age verification.
Also the JMStV, as previously mentioned by another user, states certain special cases where unrated stuff can be shown on store when it is in certain timeframes, §5 JMStV paragraph 4 and the JMStV applies to online stores, therefor also the exception provisions.
So there are enough ways to comply with the law without going on a full banning spree.
If our government decided to just ban, we wouldn't have these cases that bypass the requirement.

Origineel geplaatst door Nargo:

Good luck. Always good for there to be market competition. Do consider the epic games launcher.

One of the platforms I am considering but not the main one.

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamworks/announcements/detail/4183351393029705363

It wasn't Valve's decision. If it were Valve's decision, why would they have made the decision differently for your country than for every other country in existence?

Ok, again since you still do not understand it and pretend to be an expert:
The rating requirement is enforced by the BzKJ as you stated, which is §14a JuSchG. However the selfsame law states that movies and games are exempt from the rating if the platform locks said content behind an age verification.
Also the JMStV, as previously mentioned by another user, states certain special cases where unrated stuff can be shown on store when it is in certain timeframes, §5 JMStV paragraph 4 and the JMStV applies to online stores, therefor also the exception provisions.
So there are enough ways to comply with the law without going on a full banning spree.
If our government decided to just ban, we wouldn't have these cases that bypass the requirement.

Origineel geplaatst door Nargo:

Good luck. Always good for there to be market competition. Do consider the epic games launcher.

One of the platforms I am considering but not the main one.

So Valve's choices were to either require game developers to complete a 2-5 minute survey before their game could be published on Steam and give game developers over half a year to comply for older games OR they could have set up a system that constantly lost them money verifying the ages of people browsing the store who will likely not buy anything anyway. And you're claiming there's some third option that was somehow both different from the first option and not immediately damaging to the store's continued existence like the second?

[Mia]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Ok, again since you still do not understand it and pretend to be an expert:
The rating requirement is enforced by the BzKJ as you stated, which is §14a JuSchG. However the selfsame law states that movies and games are exempt from the rating if the platform locks said content behind an age verification.
Also the JMStV, as previously mentioned by another user, states certain special cases where unrated stuff can be shown on store when it is in certain timeframes, §5 JMStV paragraph 4 and the JMStV applies to online stores, therefor also the exception provisions.
So there are enough ways to comply with the law without going on a full banning spree.
If our government decided to just ban, we wouldn't have these cases that bypass the requirement.


One of the platforms I am considering but not the main one.

So Valve's choices were to either require game developers to complete a 2-5 minute survey before their game could be published on Steam and give game developers over half a year to comply for older games OR they could have set up a system that constantly lost them money verifying the ages of people browsing the store who will likely not buy anything anyway. And you're claiming there's some third option that was somehow both different from the first option and not immediately damaging to the store's continued existence like the second?

"Claiming"
https://www.die-medienanstalten.de/service/rechtsgrundlagen/jugendmedienschutz-staatsvertrag/

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

So Valve's choices were to either require game developers to complete a 2-5 minute survey before their game could be published on Steam and give game developers over half a year to comply for older games OR they could have set up a system that constantly lost them money verifying the ages of people browsing the store who will likely not buy anything anyway. And you're claiming there's some third option that was somehow both different from the first option and not immediately damaging to the store's continued existence like the second?

"Claiming"
https://www.die-medienanstalten.de/service/rechtsgrundlagen/jugendmedienschutz-staatsvertrag/

Alright, please use your words to explain what that mystical third option is where Valve would neither have to pay to verify the ages of shoppers who might not necessarily buy anything nor be in violation of German law.

[Mia]

I provided you the source, feel free to read it.

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

I provided you the source, feel free to read it.

That's a law written in German. I checked an English translation of it earlier and the relevant section says that:

Providers of telemedia whose content is entirely or essentially identical to that of films or games or image carriers within the meaning of the German Protection of Young Persons Act must provide clear disclaimers pursuant to the German Protection of Young Persons Act in their service. Versions of films and games in telemedia that are ready on data carriers to be submitted for rating may be labelled in compliance with the German Protection of Young Persons Act.

You know, the law you claimed earlier that I had "incorrectly cited" because you claimed it doesn't apply to online stores. The one that this law very clearly says does apply to online stores.

You are still very welcome to tell me what the third option is. Don't keep me waiting!

[Mia]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

I provided you the source, feel free to read it.

That's a law written in German. I checked an English translation of it earlier and the relevant section says that:

Providers of telemedia whose content is entirely or essentially identical to that of films or games or image carriers within the meaning of the German Protection of Young Persons Act must provide clear disclaimers pursuant to the German Protection of Young Persons Act in their service. Versions of films and games in telemedia that are ready on data carriers to be submitted for rating may be labelled in compliance with the German Protection of Young Persons Act.

You know, the law you claimed earlier that I had "incorrectly cited" because you claimed it doesn't apply to online stores. The one that this law very clearly says does apply to online stores.

You are still very welcome to tell me what the third option is. Don't keep me waiting!

The BzKJ themself stated that they're enforcing §14a JuSchG. I did contact them about that issue. Otherwise I wouldn't state that exact law.
Again, you picked something you felt like picking but not the actual §5 paragraph 4. The entire JMStV is linked on the page. Also sorry, I didn't expect you to need a translator given how you acted to be knowledgable on german laws, I was under the impression you are familiar with our language.

Anyways to spare you some work:
"(4) Ist eine entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung im Sinne von Absatz 1 auf Kinder oder
Jugendliche anzunehmen, erfüllt der Anbieter seine Verpflichtung nach Absatz 1, wenn das Angebot
nur zwischen 23 Uhr und 6 Uhr verbreitet oder zugänglich gemacht wird. Gleiches gilt, wenn eine
entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung auf Kinder oder Jugendliche unter 16 Jahren anzunehmen
ist, wenn das Angebot nur zwischen 22 Uhr und 6 Uhr verbreitet oder zugänglich gemacht wird. Ist
eine entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung im Sinne von Absatz 1 auf Kinder unter zwölf Jahren
anzunehmen, ist bei der Wahl der Sendezeit dem Wohl jüngerer Kinder Rechnung zu tragen."

Given I am lazy and don't feel like translating it myself:
"(4) If it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment within the meaning of paragraph 1 for children or young people, the provider fulfils its obligation under paragraph 1 if the offer is only broadcast or made accessible between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. The same applies if it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment for children or young people under 16 years of age if the offer is only broadcast or made accessible between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. If it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment within the meaning of paragraph 1 for children under 12 years of age, the well-being of younger children must be taken into account when choosing the broadcasting time."

In germany you're of age at the age of 18, therefor you can also buy unrated stuff, meaning the first timeframe mentioned applies (DST needs to be considered obv).

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

That's a law written in German. I checked an English translation of it earlier and the relevant section says that:



You know, the law you claimed earlier that I had "incorrectly cited" because you claimed it doesn't apply to online stores. The one that this law very clearly says does apply to online stores.

You are still very welcome to tell me what the third option is. Don't keep me waiting!

The BzKJ themself stated that they're enforcing §14a JuSchG. I did contact them about that issue. Otherwise I wouldn't state that exact law.
Again, you picked something you felt like picking but not the actual §5 paragraph 4. The entire JMStV is linked on the page. Also sorry, I didn't expect you to need a translator given how you acted to be knowledgable on german laws, I was under the impression you are familiar with our language.

Anyways to spare you some work:
"(4) Ist eine entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung im Sinne von Absatz 1 auf Kinder oder
Jugendliche anzunehmen, erfüllt der Anbieter seine Verpflichtung nach Absatz 1, wenn das Angebot
nur zwischen 23 Uhr und 6 Uhr verbreitet oder zugänglich gemacht wird. Gleiches gilt, wenn eine
entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung auf Kinder oder Jugendliche unter 16 Jahren anzunehmen
ist, wenn das Angebot nur zwischen 22 Uhr und 6 Uhr verbreitet oder zugänglich gemacht wird. Ist
eine entwicklungsbeeinträchtigende Wirkung im Sinne von Absatz 1 auf Kinder unter zwölf Jahren
anzunehmen, ist bei der Wahl der Sendezeit dem Wohl jüngerer Kinder Rechnung zu tragen."

Given I am lazy and don't feel like translating it myself:
"(4) If it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment within the meaning of paragraph 1 for children or young people, the provider fulfils its obligation under paragraph 1 if the offer is only broadcast or made accessible between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. The same applies if it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment for children or young people under 16 years of age if the offer is only broadcast or made accessible between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. If it is to be assumed that there is a developmental impairment within the meaning of paragraph 1 for children under 12 years of age, the well-being of younger children must be taken into account when choosing the broadcasting time."

In germany you're of age at the age of 18, therefor you can also buy unrated stuff, meaning the first timeframe mentioned applies (DST needs to be considered obv).

So what's this "third option" you keep alluding to that doesn't require Valve to pay for age verification services and also doesn't put them in violation of German law?

And what does this paragraph about TV broadcast times have to do with anything on Steam?

[Mia]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

So what's this option you keep alluding to that doesn't require Valve to pay for age verification services and also doesn't put them in violation of German law?

And what does this paragraph about TV broadcast times have to do with anything on Steam?

Okay I am sure you're now trolling.
1) The option is stated in my post, read it.
2) There was never mentioned TV broadcast times
3) "...if the offer is only broadcast or >made accessible<..." MADE ACCESSIBLE
4) §5 is under the General Provisions section, meaning it applies to videos, movies, games and other things that are affected by the JMStV.

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

So what's this option you keep alluding to that doesn't require Valve to pay for age verification services and also doesn't put them in violation of German law?

And what does this paragraph about TV broadcast times have to do with anything on Steam?

Okay I am sure you're now trolling.
1) The option is stated in my post, read it.
2) There was never mentioned TV broadcast times
3) "...if the offer is only broadcast or >made accessible<..." MADE ACCESSIBLE
4) §5 is under the General Provisions section, meaning it applies to videos, movies, games and other things that are affected by the JMStV.

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're trying to say through all the layers of obfuscation you've added.

Are you saying that Valve should make unrated games available to customers on Steam only during certain hours of the day in some time zone?

[Menzagitat]

Steam should have warned in advance by changing the color of those entries in the wish list which are going to be affected and placing an info button near them.

[DanTheKraut]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Origineel geplaatst door ミア・フラフボール:

Okay I am sure you're now trolling.
1) The option is stated in my post, read it.
2) There was never mentioned TV broadcast times
3) "...if the offer is only broadcast or >made accessible<..." MADE ACCESSIBLE
4) §5 is under the General Provisions section, meaning it applies to videos, movies, games and other things that are affected by the JMStV.

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're trying to say through all the layers of obfuscation you've added.

Are you saying that Valve should make unrated games available to customers on Steam only during certain hours of the day in some time zone?

Ubisoft handles it like that in Germany.

I still do not understand why people trying to argue against a solution for the German market.

What is their point?

[Ben Lubar]

Origineel geplaatst door DanTheKraut:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're trying to say through all the layers of obfuscation you've added.

Are you saying that Valve should make unrated games available to customers on Steam only during certain hours of the day in some time zone?

Ubisoft handles it like that in Germany.

I still do not understand why people trying to argue against a solution for the German market.

What is their point?

Can you give an example of an unrated video game Ubisoft is selling only at night?

Are you two trolling me?

[DanTheKraut]

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Origineel geplaatst door DanTheKraut:

Ubisoft handles it like that in Germany.

I still do not understand why people trying to argue against a solution for the German market.

What is their point?

Can you give an example of an unrated video game Ubisoft is selling only at night?

Are you two trolling me?

Unrated games in Germany are automatically rated 18. They are handled like USK rated 18 games.
When I lived in Germany you could only buy unrated or rated 18 games from the Ubisoft Store between 23-6.

But again a closed closed user group is the solution for this.

Again what is your point arguing against this topic?

[Sazzouu]

Been on a trip until now. Can someone give me a quick headsup:

Origineel geplaatst door Ben Lubar:

Even if Valve set up one of the expensive systems people have suggested for age verification, that only proves that there is an adult in the room. It doesn't prove that there are no minors. And the law only cares whether there are minors, not how many adults there are.

What „expensive systems“ are we talking about? Because last time I‘ve checked (and as many users including me already pointed out) the systems are already there. They only need to be used.

Plus what „constant costs“ do we have here? Because once setup (no matter if custom build or using the existing solutions) there are no other costs