Who should be held responsible for wrong/missing info on a store page?

[b1k3rdude]

I purchased a game (Gotham Knights) based of the info that is NOT present on the store page for that game. After buying the game I find out that its needs an additional service (could be viewed as DRM) that is NOT stated anywhere on the store page or even in the EULA. I am refering to EpicOnlineServices (EOS), if this bloody service is not installed and has unfettered access to the internet the game will NOT launch. Had I been aware of the this F***ing requirement before beforehand, I would NOT have purchased the game!

So from the store page for that game I tried to log a support/complaint request with steam, and as a lot of steam users have found - Steam support goes out of their way to make it impossible for you to log a support request. So I had to find alternative method for contacting them.

Once I got a response I was told -

" Please note that all the information provided in Steam Store page is actually provided by the game developers. With that, we here at Steam Support do not have control on what the developers provide in that section.

Additionally, if you wish to share an opinion, suggestion, or idea with the community as well, please visit the Suggestions/Ideas section of the Steam Discussion forums.
"

My reasponse -

" I Understand that the Game Dev is the party that created and populated the page, but the data/information is hosted on Valves servers/services. Under Uk law, Valve has a duty of care for any negligent misrepresentations made on the store page as they are responsible for maintaining the store, so the ultimate responsponsibility falls on them when information that directly effects peoples buying decisions on the steam store is, incorrect, wrong, or just missing entirely.

And I had already checked the game's steam-external faq - https://www.gothamknightsgame.com/en-us/faq, there is NO bloody mention of the EpicOnlineServices (EOS) requirement and it EVEN states ' An internet connection is not required to play Gotham Knights solo ' - well it bloody is, because the game will not launch unless EOS has internet access!!!
"

My review of the game is blunt, as I am F***ing tired of buying games where info that would have DIRECTLY effected my purchasing decision is missing from the damn store page.

:-/

[b1k3rdude]

Publicado originalmente por brian9824:

Again not an issue, they don't have to list the specific tools they use and the various software their game runs on. EOS is not DRM

Secondly have you tested if the game works AFTER you install EOS and try to connect with no internet connection? From most of the ways EOS is being used, as long as its installed that is all that is needed, you don't need a connection to the internet to run it.

I never said EOS was DRM, I questuioned if it was.

Yep, all 3 services have to be allowed access to the internet and that the EOS service be allowed to run. If I block any of of them from acceessing the internet the game will not launch. Oh and the icing on the cake, as a result of figuring out what services need to be running and/or need internet access. The game has starting f***ing playing the 'first time' unskipable intros each and every time - deep joy!

:-/

[Brian9824]

Then that is a question for the developer as steam doesn't control it. It's not steam's job anymore then it would be bestbuy's job to figure it out if you had bought the game from there.

[b1k3rdude]

Only because I think its releated to this discussion, I am pasting the reply from WB support. Its not a good start -

" Thank you for writing in about your concern regarding Gotham Knights. I understand that you would like to be able to play the game offline without installing some applications or files. I appreciate you for sharing a screenshot with me. While the game will not need a connection to play solo, it will need an internet connection to install the necessary files for the game. With that said I'll be glad to share your report with the game team for review.

While the game team will not be providing a direct response, rest assured that reports are reviewed and treated with high value for further investigation.

If you have other questions or concerns, feel free to leave a response on this email and I'll be glad to help. "

So not only is the agent missing the point (the EOS online requirement conflicting with their FAQ), but I feel like I am being fobbed off.

[RiO]

Publicado originalmente por brian9824:

Publicado originalmente por b1k3rdude:

The 2 issues are -

- The EOS requirement is NOT stated on the store page, so while valve dont populate the page, they do have a duty of care for what is on their systems.

- WB montreal, states on thier own FAQ that an internet connection is not required to play the game, this is incorrect and bordering on being deliberatly misleading.

I have a steam support ticket open for the Steam store side of this situation. I had already logged a ticket with WB support and am currently awaiting a response from them.

Again not an issue, they don't have to list the specific tools they use and the various software their game runs on. EOS is not DRM

Under EU law (which in this case includes the UK, because this legislation is from a time the UK was still part of the EU and when it exited the Union kept it around) they actually do have to list it.

Official guidance of the EU commission on the interpretation of the consumer rights directive[eur-lex.europa.eu]

Note heading 3.2.8 which explains that digital content has certain elements involved with functionality, compatibility and interoperability that should be considered as material product characteristics, and would be required for the trader to list with their offer.

Among the non-exhaustive list of potentials for the trader to consider, are the dependency on any third party software components that need to be installed; as well as the reliance on an internet connection.


Also; it is the trader's responsibility to ensure that this information is correct.
The fact that Valve chooses to outsource the writing of the store page information to their suppliers does not release them of that responsibility.

And yes; Valve is the trader in this case. Not the publisher.
Note that even Valve itself acknowledges this as fact - as the Steam SSA explicitly states that all your contracts as a consumer purchasing content on Steam, are to/with Valve unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Publicado originalmente por b1k3rdude:

I never said EOS was DRM, I questuioned if it was.

Legally, in the EU / UK it is. To function with a game launched via Steam it creates an ephemeral Epic account that is automatically linked to the Steam account ID. Online accounts are counted among what the EU/UK legislation calls 'technical protection measures'.

The reason games using EOS refuse to launch without internet connection, is quite likely that they're poorly written and must initialize all the EOS services to start succesfully, i.e. require that your Steam account uses its grant to sign in to the ephemeral Epic account under the hood.

It's quite likely that after the game has started and everything is up and running, you could 'cord pull' the network connection and it'd just keep running.

[Brian9824]

Publicado originalmente por b1k3rdude:

Only because I think its releated to this discussion, I am pasting the reply from WB support. Its not a good start -

" Thank you for writing in about your concern regarding Gotham Knights. I understand that you would like to be able to play the game offline without installing some applications or files. I appreciate you for sharing a screenshot with me. While the game will not need a connection to play solo, it will need an internet connection to install the necessary files for the game. With that said I'll be glad to share your report with the game team for review.

While the game team will not be providing a direct response, rest assured that reports are reviewed and treated with high value for further investigation.

If you have other questions or concerns, feel free to leave a response on this email and I'll be glad to help. "

So not only is the agent missing the point (the EOS online requirement conflicting with their FAQ), but I feel like I am being fobbed off.

Yep, so as already stated it sounds like they claim that once installed and set up you don't need an internet connection to play it outside the initial setup. Which would be fine, clearly you need an internet connection to set up a digital game you download

[Boblin the Goblin]

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

Publicado originalmente por brian9824:

Again not an issue, they don't have to list the specific tools they use and the various software their game runs on. EOS is not DRM

Under EU law (which in this case includes the UK, because this legislation is from a time the UK was still part of the EU and when it exited the Union kept it around) they actually do have to list it.

Official guidance of the EU commission on the interpretation of the consumer rights directive[eur-lex.europa.eu]

Note heading 3.2.8 which includes a non-exhaustive listing of things the trader is responsible to consider and list as material product characteristics.

Among that list is included the dependency on any third party software components that need to be installed; as well as the reliance on an internet connection.

Good thing Steam already encourages developers to properly list DRM or other requirements when creating the store page for their(the developer's) game.

[Brian9824]

Publicado originalmente por SlowMango:

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

Under EU law (which in this case includes the UK, because this legislation is from a time the UK was still part of the EU and when it exited the Union kept it around) they actually do have to list it.

Official guidance of the EU commission on the interpretation of the consumer rights directive[eur-lex.europa.eu]

Note heading 3.2.8 which includes a non-exhaustive listing of things the trader is responsible to consider and list as material product characteristics.

Among that list is included the dependency on any third party software components that need to be installed; as well as the reliance on an internet connection.

Good thing Steam already encourages developers to properly list DRM or other requirements when creating the store page for their(the developer's) game.

Interestingly enough they even provide a checklist, and software used for multiplayer connectivity isn't required to be listed, nor would drivers, or other pieces of software that are downloaded as part of the installation. A game can have dozens or hundreds of pieces of code from different companies that are required to be installed. Drivers, codecs, etc. You don't have to list out every piece of code used.

[RiO]

Publicado originalmente por SlowMango:

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

Under EU law (which in this case includes the UK, because this legislation is from a time the UK was still part of the EU and when it exited the Union kept it around) they actually do have to list it.

Official guidance of the EU commission on the interpretation of the consumer rights directive[eur-lex.europa.eu]

Note heading 3.2.8 which includes a non-exhaustive listing of things the trader is responsible to consider and list as material product characteristics.

Among that list is included the dependency on any third party software components that need to be installed; as well as the reliance on an internet connection.

Good thing Steam already encourages developers to properly list DRM or other requirements when creating the store page for their(the developer's) game.

They do. Yes. But many developers play fast and loose with it.
(This wouldn't be the first time WB has done a runner with it either.)

Sadly an "A for effort" doesn't cut it as far as the law is concerned.
They're still legally responsible for the consequences.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

Publicado originalmente por SlowMango:

Good thing Steam already encourages developers to properly list DRM or other requirements when creating the store page for their(the developer's) game.

They do. Yes. But many developers play fast and loose with it.
(This wouldn't be the first time WB has done a runner with it either.)

Sadly an "A for effort" doesn't cut it as far as the law is concerned.
They're still legally responsible for the consequences.

Then consumers can take it up with WB.

[RiO]

Publicado originalmente por SlowMango:

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

They do. Yes. But many developers play fast and loose with it.
(This wouldn't be the first time WB has done a runner with it either.)

Sadly an "A for effort" doesn't cut it as far as the law is concerned.
They're still legally responsible for the consequences.

Then consumers can take it up with WB.

No. Consumers in the EU/UK would take it up with the trader - i.e. Valve (the one who is also legally liable here) - and the trader in turn has a right of redress with the supplier to sue them for any damages. Consumers have no business with the trader's supplier.

This works differently in the US, I know. But this is how it works in the EU/UK.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Publicado originalmente por RiO:

Publicado originalmente por SlowMango:

Then consumers can take it up with WB.

No. Consumers in the EU/UK would take it up with the trader - i.e. Valve (the one who is also legally liable here) - and the trader in turn has a right of redress with the supplier to sue them for any damages. Consumers have no business with the trader's supplier.

This works differently in the US, I know. But this is how it works in the EU/UK.

Valve would be the supplier. They didn't create the page, they didn't create the game. They even have guidelines for what to put on the page.

It's the devs responsibility to follow legal requirements so consumers would take it up with WB.

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Tell that to Square-Enix before they sold off Tomb Raider to Embracer group about switching to EoS for their online stuff.

No notice. Just added one day, long after the game was released.

[Brian9824]

Publicado originalmente por cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Tell that to Square-Enix before they sold off Tomb Raider to Embracer group about switching to EoS for their online stuff.

No notice. Just added one day, long after the game was released.

:summercat2023:

yeah its funny how all these supposed EU violations never really amount to anything. If they are indeed violating the EU laws so much that a random user on steam can spot it then that must mean the EU is the most useless organization in the world incapable of enforcing their own rules....

[nullable]

Publicado originalmente por b1k3rdude:

So not only is the agent missing the point (the EOS online requirement conflicting with their FAQ), but I feel like I am being fobbed off.

I don't think they are. I think you're conflating the requirements to install the software, to being able to play single player offline.

You can interpret installing the game with the intent of playing it solo as not needing Internet, but that's not what's being claimed and that's where your complaints and outrage falls over I'm afraid.

Besides lots of single player games where single player can be played offline still requires you to be online at some point during installation or at least once on first run or something like that. In a lot of ways this reminds me of all the wailing about HL2 when it launched. Even if EOS isn't DRM, the side effects mirror "needs to be online at some point for a second" scenario various DRM/License checking scheme have employed for decades now.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Publicado originalmente por brian9824:

Publicado originalmente por cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Tell that to Square-Enix before they sold off Tomb Raider to Embracer group about switching to EoS for their online stuff.

No notice. Just added one day, long after the game was released.

:summercat2023:

yeah its funny how all these supposed EU violations never really amount to anything. If they are indeed violating the EU laws so much that a random user on steam can spot it then that must mean the EU is the most useless organization in the world incapable of enforcing their own rules....

Or the consumers don't actually care to report these violations.