Valve, please reconsider allowing games with explicit sexual content

[Becky]

Hi there everyone, particularly employees and volunteers working for Valve:

This is just a piece of feedback I would like to humbly offer to Valve, regarding their Steam platform. I would definitely like to open this commentary by saying that the Steam platform is amazing, and altogether serves as an excellent example of modern technology and ingenuity. The seamless integration of Store, Game Library, Workshop, Community, Badges, Achievements, Chat, and other functionality is superb, and I try to recommend Steam to my friends and family wherever possible.

There is one small issue that I feel needs bringing up, in the form of some consumer feedback. In the past, various members of the Steam moderator community have suggested that I leave any feedback Imay have in this discussion forum. Today I have decided to take the time to put my thoughts down in text, and post my ideas.

My concern is simply thus: I have noticed that Steam seemingly disallows games to be sold if they contain explicit sexual content. Without intending to be distruptive, I would like to say that this particular stance on sexuality in video gaming is not particularly appropriate or relevant, and I am providing this feedback to express disappointment.

As an adult gamer, I am content that Steam publishes many video games that feature heavy violence and gore. However, I am concerned that overt sexual content in video games is (apparently) not permitted. Consider this short (but by no means comprehensive) list of some violent video games available on Steam:

• Telltale's The Walking Dead (Season 1), which involves the player conducting rough limb amputations, overt cannibalism, and other gory scenes.
  
• Telltale's The Walking Dead (Season 2), which involves the player experiencing visceral dog attacks, suturing their own gaping wounds shut, witnessing the slow torture death of a man named Carver, as well as many other gory scenarios.
  
• Creative Assembly's Total War: ROME II - Blood & Gore DLC, which was specifically designed to allow the player to witness their troops decapitating, dismembering, and impaling their foe, as well as gratuitious blood splatter effects.
  
• Rockstar's Manhunt, which is famous for its varied forms of killing people with a number of different tools and instruments.
  
• Bethesda's Fallout 3 and Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas permit various forms of decapitation and dismemberment of combatants, which is made especially easy with the VATS system. Futhermore, dead torture victims (and their removed limbs) are regularly found hanging up within raider camps.
  
• Bethesda's Wolfenstein: New Order contains multiple scenes of gruesome Nazi behaviour.
  
• Valve's own Left for Dead 2, which graphically simulates internal organs pouring from zombies' bodies when they are attacked with melee weaponry.
  
• Deep Silver's Dead Island series, which also displays visceral gore on zombies.
  
• Rockstar's GTA series, including GTA V, which is due for PC release in the near future. It contains various gory scenes, including the player (as Trevor) interrogating someone with torture.

I feel that this content is clearly appropriate for the Steam platform, and for video games in general. I strongly support the right of adults to access and consume games with this type of content. Adult consumers rightly deserve access to adult content, and Steam is admirably fulfilling demand for the adult content categories of violence and gore. However, note that violent adult entertainment is available, while sexual adult entertainment is not available. I find this to be very perplexing, and this inequity ought to be worrisome for adult consumers. Personally, I am worried by this inbalance, and I know many others that are too.

Aside from the various points regarding the unbalanced nature of adult content on Steam, I feel that Valve is missing a massive influx of profit by dismissing games containing sexual content. There is, in fact, a niche genre of video games that contain open sexuality, especially within many anime-based visual novels. If Valve were to step forth and permit the publication of video games containing (intact) sexual content on their Steam platform, I believe that the financial results of adapting to fulfill a whole extra market would be noticable.

I have heard arguments that sexual material is inappropriate for minors, as it can easily fall into underaged hands. To these comments, I would like to point out that there is already a massive amount of content on Steam that is (by that definition) 'inappropriate for minors', and it too could fall into their hands. I believe that the age-verification systems currently in use by Steam (based around the user's birthday) would be appropriate to protect children from overt sexual content. After all, the system has already been deemed appropriate to protect children from overt gore and violence. So, while I am not an age-verification expert, I believe it is a fair and unobtrusive 'honesty-based' system. (To those who would complain that children can lie about their birthday, I would probably recommend the application of parental guidance and/or PC parental controls.)

Others have complained that explicit sexuality is inappropriate in general, as it serves to corrupt viewers psychologically, or is 'spiritually harmful' by some means. In defence against these claims, I would like to point out that we, as users of the Steam platform, generally live in free societies where we can make our own choices regarding our lives and wellbeing. Personally, I believe that access to sexual materials is in no way psychologically damaging; it is a valid form of media that expresses a very natural and very human process. Furthermore, I would like to dismiss claims regarding spiritual welfare, as religious beliefs vary wildly and cannot be measured in any empirical sense. I would suggest that the individual's right to freedom of choice overrides any such matters. Should someone not like sexual-based content, they are welcome to peruse any of the other games on Steam, which already number in the thousands.

Much to my sadness, several recent video games published on Steam (including Nekopara Vol. 1 and the Early Access Sunrider Academy) have had sexual content deliberately cut (presumably to meet Steam requests). As such, it is possible to see that paying customers are having content censored from them. Furthermore, at least one game has been removed from Steam Greenlight (that being Seduce Me). This game did not feature bloody combat with weapons, but only featured frontal, hand-painted sex scenes.

I appreciate that the Steam platform belongs to Valve, and that Valve ultimately has the full right to decide what does (and does not) get placed and sold on their store. I do respect this completely. However, my primary point with this feedback post is to bring the issue up with Valve, and kindly request that they reconsider their stance on the matter. If adult violence is okay, then there is no reason to believe that adult sexuality would not be okay too. I only wish to point out the inbalance, and politely ask for Valve's sincere consideration. (If not, then perhaps a general explanation of Valve's policy on sexual content, and how it contrasts with the ideas within general consumer feedback (including this feedback post), would be very thoughtful and helpful.)

I would like to complete my feedback by saying thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read my feedback. If you do agree with these beliefs, I would kindly ask that you please add your support in a reply below. Each single reply of support would help to bring this issue to the forefront of Valve's attention.

Thank you, and take care everyone.

TL;DR: There's lots of adult content on Steam, mainly gore and violence. That's great! I would like to see Steam allow other forms of adult content too, specifically sexual content, please.

Please note: I'm not trying to agitate anyone within the community. I honestly just want to give my feedback to Valve.

[Unexpected]

Автор сообщения: Sgt. Variant

See, there's the thing. If you just casually "Find out it happened", it doesn't have as much of an impact.

Hatred is fine.

hatred is fine?! i would rather support becky with her adult games before i would support hatred being sold on steam, misanthropy is not a cool subject to depict

[magmoose]

stil jeez anyways it makes no sense a kid can eatch human torture... and then not experience how to make love? there are still kids in europe and asia that are allowed to do these things (not the torture of course) before reaching age 10.... like i keep saying if you really want that content in game it should have an option... i mean i know my niece (who is 5 years old) laughs at the texas cahinsaw massacre and the SAW series... yet shes never talked about harming anyone once... shes seen her parents in duration of intercourse plenty of times (do i think she should ahve no but still) she never talks about these things

children only react the way they do because it was never accepted by children... but children should not have to experience these things hence the option... my niece wanted to see the scary movis... hse didnt want to shut her eyes while in her crib...

life sucks... its unfair and cruel... if you want to make your child think every one loves eachother maybe you need to put down the joint... sober up and remember the worlod is 10x worse than you think it is...

2000 people in america aone go missing every year... never heard of again... people die every second and are replaced every second... worlds screwed up dont block your kids from these things just... warn them... dont stop them

"mothers and fathers throughout the land, dont criticize what you cant undertand; your sons and your daughters are beyond your command, your old road is rapidly agin';please get out a new one if you cant lend a hand; for the times they are a' changin" - Bob Dylan

dont hate cause by the time you have grandkids yes will be no and vice versa... you cant change the world no matter how big you are no matter the cumbrance... for either way we all die... we all experience the same thing one way or another... just in different ways... soem had dodo birds in their lifetime some had green blood in NES mortal kombat... some watched the events of chernobyl... some watched the bombs at hiroshima... tragic or just censored... some things you just cant prevent if a parent give their kids credit card access that is their fault knowing hey my child could purchase pornographic material...

i am just saying tho eventually even if steam continues to say no it will eb a more common thing for where there is demand supply is met, and microsoft heheh yeah they dont care if they lose some sales... they could not sell 1,000 games for 20 years and still be where they are now... im sure they wouldnt mind a artial nude woman in the game for a short bit...

steam isnt ran by a multi billion dollar company that donates billions each month by their owner to random charities... so they cant afford to lose customers atm due to "vulgar content" but eventually i do believe they should consider this to be considered as an option for game makers... i mean if japan can release a rape game for nintendo that sells over 100,000 copies i dont see why you couldnt release a game that just has naked strippers for a brief second on steam... its like the same thing about killing children in fallout games.. its inhumane and would cause the loss of sales to a small market... so they adapt this for everyone, they clothe the people because they could lose customers... they dont have the money to back this stuff up yet

but steam is close eventually it will be an option and if they decide to take it is up to them and is only for time to tell

srry for typos im crashing asap and lol gonna look back at the 80 million comments in 10 hours
night
have fun gaming
and peace
MAGNUS

[Becky]

Автор сообщения: Vlady Puts Fegelantic Master

but you still do not have to watch the violence, you can find out it happened or at least black out the screen, hatred was a prime example of a ban worthy game, no one should want to pay for a misanthropic game such as that

I guess what we're trying to ask is this:

If Steam already has some stuff that's unsuitable for kids, why should we be worried about adding more stuff that is unsuitable for kids?

[supertrooper225]

Автор сообщения: Becky Fluttershy

Автор сообщения: supertrooper225

Nobody wants to be labeled with any derogatory terms. Especially when it has to do with a countries history. Which is exactly why he used the term. But I digress. Thank you for understanding Becky.

I didn't realise that 'puritan' was a derogratory term to begin with. The dictionary usually says "perjorative" when a term is derogratory, and I didn't see that, so I took the word at its face value.

(In other words, I considered that some righteous or pious people might like the term.)

Автор сообщения: supertrooper225

I don't understand why you wouldn't trust the purchase of a product from a publisher because of their payment handlers. They must have some kind of history that I am not aware of.

I'm just careful about where I put my credit card details. I can trust a big name like Steam, Amazon, or Paypal. I can even trust smaller names. But when I went to purchase one particular unnamed game from its developer, I was sent to a payment hander's website, and let me say that my warning bells did ring!

For starters, they had a "PayPal Verified" logo, yet the logo didn't link anywhere, nor could I find any way to pay via PayPal. All the 'Testimonials' looked like they were written by the one person (whose grasp on English was very poor). And lastly, the website's SSL cerificate had actually expired, which is a massive no-no for me.

I come from a pretty 'pious' area. But I am pretty laid back as is my family and friends. I can tell you that the term pious might make some extremist smile....but that guy would creep me the ♥♥♥♥ out if he did to be honest. That extremist would be close to a puritan. I don't like to be thrown into the mix with that guy. I just don't like to be compared to people with a history such as that.

Anyway, that is a good enough reason to not want to use their payment systems to me. If they use a shady handler they use a shady handler. There is an unfortunate connection between sexually explicit content distribution and the shadier people. It is weird. Now I can understand the request much better. Nothing wrong with staying safe from thieves if possible.

Let's say hypothetically that Steam does it. I think a happy compromise might be it's own app. They could call it "Steamy Apps"- Apps that are so hot they give off Steam. Lol. I could spend a couple of days coming up with ways to name that app. Anyway, maybe they could do something like that if the demand is big enough? Money is money after all. It would probably have to be a pretty big market for them to take an interest though.

[Becky]

Автор сообщения: supertrooper225

Let's say hypothetically that Steam does it. I think a happy compromise might be it's own app. They could call it "Steamy Apps"- Apps that are so hot they give off Steam. Lol. I could spend a couple of days coming up with ways to name that app. Anyway, maybe they could do something like that if the demand is big enough? Money is money after all. It would probably have to be a pretty big market for them to take an interest though.

That'd be great! I love this idea!

[Dendrobates Tinctorius]

o look like 17 or 30 pages more have appeared yeah not gonna read all those

Автор сообщения: supertrooper225

Let's say hypothetically that Steam does it. I think a happy compromise might be it's own app. They could call it "Steamy Apps"- Apps that are so hot they give off Steam. Lol. I could spend a couple of days coming up with ways to name that app. Anyway, maybe they could do something like that if the demand is big enough? Money is money after all. It would probably have to be a pretty big market for them to take an interest though.

What's the difference between a separate app for steamy games and a separate retailer? If the retailer can't use a legit looking processor, why would steamy be able to? If the retailer won't use a legit one, why won't they? You could make the case to them to fix their system just as well as to steam.

[supertrooper225]

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

o look like 17 or 30 pages more have appeared yeah not gonna read all those

Автор сообщения: supertrooper225

Let's say hypothetically that Steam does it. I think a happy compromise might be it's own app. They could call it "Steamy Apps"- Apps that are so hot they give off Steam. Lol. I could spend a couple of days coming up with ways to name that app. Anyway, maybe they could do something like that if the demand is big enough? Money is money after all. It would probably have to be a pretty big market for them to take an interest though.

What's the difference between a separate app for steamy games and a separate retailer? If the retailer can't use a legit looking processor, why would steamy be able to? If the retailer won't use a legit one, why won't they? You could make the case to them to fix their system just as well as to steam.

Just a hypothetical. I can't really see Steam taking part. But IF they did it...that would probably be the way they would do it....If they do they owe me royalties over the name though. Lol.

[Becky]

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

What's the difference between a separate app for steamy games and a separate retailer? If the retailer can't use a legit looking processor, why would steamy be able to? If the retailer won't use a legit one, why won't they? You could make the case to them to fix their system just as well as to steam.

Valve is a large respected company, so they will use a trustworthy payment handler.

On the other hand, a tiny developer toiling in obscurity is going to pick whichever payment handler will give them the least resistance and the biggest cut. Trustworthiness isn't going to be such an issue when big payment handlers like PayPal are turning you down.

[Dendrobates Tinctorius]

Автор сообщения: Becky Fluttershy

Valve is a large respected company, so they will use a trustworthy payment handler.

On the other hand, a tiny developer toiling in obscurity is going to pick whichever payment handler will give them the least resistance and the biggest cut.

The payment processors are much, much bigger than valve is. If they won't do business with tiny developers, why? Why would they reject tiny developers? There are plenty of small digital distributors that use paypal or whatever for all sorts of other games.

If paypal tells valve to take a hike, valve can't just say "but i'm large and respected". Paypal will survive a month, nay, even a year of no valve. But valve won't survive that long with not being able to sell games.

[Becky]

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

The payment processors are much, much bigger than valve is. If they won't do business with tiny developers, why? Why would they reject tiny developers? There are plenty of small digital distributors that use paypal or whatever for all sorts of other games.

From the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full

Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
2. relate to transactions involving
(h) certain sexually oriented materials or services,

PayPal is even quite content to block payments that are only tangentally related to sexual content, or even payments that are not directly related to sexual content.
http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/is-paypal-sex-negative/

PayPal is prejudiced against people working for the adult entertainment industry, and people who produce sexual content. I have heard it said that their rationale behind such

As it stands, PayPal is content to push around little developers. However, a larger and more powerful content delivery network will be able to negotiate around that clause. (Note the use of the term "certain" in their policy. They've left themselves wiggle-room for just such a 'profitable' situation.)

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

If paypal tells valve to take a hike, valve can't just say "but i'm large and respected". Paypal will survive a month, nay, even a year of no valve. But valve won't survive that long with not being able to sell games.

Valve does not exclusively use PayPal for payment processing. It's a simple case of supply and demand. If no reputable payment processor exists that will process payments for adult products, someone will step up to fill the demand if there is guarantee of enough profit. Valve's name alone brings that guarantee.

Lots of little developers working independently are not going to affect the market.
One massive market behemoth, working in concert with all the smaller developers, will create enough of a vacuum in the market. At least one reputable payment processing company will either change, bend, or create an exception to their own policies, for the sake of accepting Valve's business.

Look at this Ask MetaFilter post:
http://ask.metafilter.com/138778/What-is-the-PayPal-of-the-adult-industry

I have heard that CCBill is good, but their fees are high (starting at 14.5%), and I don't want the upfront cost of a full merchant account.

In other words, what sexual-content-tolerant payment processors exist abuse the system by either overcharging or being downright untrustworthy.

[Dendrobates Tinctorius]

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

From the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy:

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Payment processors have policies that affect both fly-by-night stores and valve.

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

However, a larger and more powerful content delivery network will be able to negotiate around that clause.

Why are you so certain of this?

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

Valve does not exclusively use PayPal for payment processing.

Obviously not, but that's a major source of payment processing. Do you think no one would complain if they dropped paypal support? What about the other processors: are they ok with all this as well?

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

It's a simple case of supply and demand. If no reputable payment processor exists that will process payments for adult products, someone will step up to fill the demand if there is guarantee of enough profit. Valve's name alone brings that guarantee.

??????????

I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure the adult products industry hasn't just been sitting around waiting for valve to appear and bless them with profits guarantees. There's obviously demand, hence the success of all those video and literature and whatnot stores over the past like a billion years. So there should already exist payment processors that are willing to handle this business.

[Becky]

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Payment processors have policies that affect both fly-by-night stores and valve.

Yes. Good job noticing that.

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

Why are you so certain of this?

Because I have worked for one of the largest multinational conglomerates in Japan. I have seen it happen. Smaller organisations cannot keep up with the bargaining power of the large corporations.

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

Obviously not, but that's a major source of payment processing. Do you think no one would complain if they dropped paypal support? What about the other processors: are they ok with all this as well?

PayPal says that they will refuse to honour transactions involving "sexually oriented materials or services". Simply put, Valve can still sell everything else with their existing payment processors, including PayPal.

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

??????????

I'm pretty sure we should be on the same page by now.

Автор сообщения: Dendrobates Tinctorius

I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure the adult products industry hasn't just been sitting around waiting for valve to appear and bless them with profits guarantees. There's obviously demand, hence the success of all those video and literature and whatnot stores over the past like a billion years. So there should already exist payment processors that are willing to handle this business.

Adult products industry? Ah, maybe this is the issue here. I'm not suggesting that Valve start selling rubber phalluses and nudie magazines. I'm suggesting they sell video games with sexual content. That is one particular sub-industry that has been desperate for a decent content delivery network.

[Dendrobates Tinctorius]

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

Yes. Good job noticing that.

So you acknowledge that payment processors would affect valve and other retailers in the same way, which indicates why steam setting up a separate store would face the same problems existing retailers face, e.g. that payment processors suck, and that it would be just as helpful to ask existing retailers to move to better processors?

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

Because I have worked for one of the largest multinational conglomerates in Japan. I have seen it happen. Smaller organisations cannot keep up with the bargaining power of the large corporations.

But
1. Valve isn't one of the largest multinational conglomerates
2. Valve isn't in japan
3. Valve isn't using japanese payment processors

Why would valve be in any way comparable to your experiences?

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

PayPal says that they will refuse to honour transactions involving "sexually oriented materials or services". Simply put, Valve can still sell everything else with their existing payment processors, including PayPal.

Like.. steam wallet transactions? Except those would involve steamy apps. So steam wallet is out. Heck, if just handling non-sexually oriented stuff next to sexually oriented stuff was ok with paypal, that link you posted earlier wouldn't exist. It's unlikely paypal would try to audit every $5 transaction to make sure only the right sort of games were being bought. They'd just refuse to handle any transaction.

Автор сообщения: Becky Lilith

Adult products industry? Ah, maybe this is the issue here. I'm not suggesting that Valve start selling rubber phalluses and nudie magazines. I'm suggesting they sell video games with sexual content. That is one particular sub-industry that has been desperate for a decent content delivery network.

You don't need a payment processor dedicated for games if one for magazines already exists. The one for magazines would be just fine with selling games as well.

[aub]

Allowing sexual content is one thing. Trying to turn Steam into porn.hub (or, even worse, Deviantart) is another thing.

♥♥♥♥ you. Yeah that's all I really have to say at this point, see me trying to argue with some Sakura Spirit addict on my profile if you want.

[Unexpected]

Автор сообщения: Binky

Allowing sexual content is one thing. Trying to turn Steam into porn.hub (or, even worse, Deviantart) is another thing.

♥♥♥♥ you. Yeah that's all I really have to say at this point, see me trying to argue with some Sakura Spirit addict on my profile if you want.

that is a bit hostile, can't we at least try to have a civilized debate about the topic?