Valve, please reconsider allowing games with explicit sexual content

[Kerfur]

Hi there everyone, particularly employees and volunteers working for Valve:

This is just a piece of feedback I would like to humbly offer to Valve, regarding their Steam platform. I would definitely like to open this commentary by saying that the Steam platform is amazing, and altogether serves as an excellent example of modern technology and ingenuity. The seamless integration of Store, Game Library, Workshop, Community, Badges, Achievements, Chat, and other functionality is superb, and I try to recommend Steam to my friends and family wherever possible.

There is one small issue that I feel needs bringing up, in the form of some consumer feedback. In the past, various members of the Steam moderator community have suggested that I leave any feedback Imay have in this discussion forum. Today I have decided to take the time to put my thoughts down in text, and post my ideas.

My concern is simply thus: I have noticed that Steam seemingly disallows games to be sold if they contain explicit sexual content. Without intending to be distruptive, I would like to say that this particular stance on sexuality in video gaming is not particularly appropriate or relevant, and I am providing this feedback to express disappointment.

As an adult gamer, I am content that Steam publishes many video games that feature heavy violence and gore. However, I am concerned that overt sexual content in video games is (apparently) not permitted. Consider this short (but by no means comprehensive) list of some violent video games available on Steam:

• Telltale's The Walking Dead (Season 1), which involves the player conducting rough limb amputations, overt cannibalism, and other gory scenes.
  
• Telltale's The Walking Dead (Season 2), which involves the player experiencing visceral dog attacks, suturing their own gaping wounds shut, witnessing the slow torture death of a man named Carver, as well as many other gory scenarios.
  
• Creative Assembly's Total War: ROME II - Blood & Gore DLC, which was specifically designed to allow the player to witness their troops decapitating, dismembering, and impaling their foe, as well as gratuitious blood splatter effects.
  
• Rockstar's Manhunt, which is famous for its varied forms of killing people with a number of different tools and instruments.
  
• Bethesda's Fallout 3 and Obsidian's Fallout: New Vegas permit various forms of decapitation and dismemberment of combatants, which is made especially easy with the VATS system. Futhermore, dead torture victims (and their removed limbs) are regularly found hanging up within raider camps.
  
• Bethesda's Wolfenstein: New Order contains multiple scenes of gruesome Nazi behaviour.
  
• Valve's own Left for Dead 2, which graphically simulates internal organs pouring from zombies' bodies when they are attacked with melee weaponry.
  
• Deep Silver's Dead Island series, which also displays visceral gore on zombies.
  
• Rockstar's GTA series, including GTA V, which is due for PC release in the near future. It contains various gory scenes, including the player (as Trevor) interrogating someone with torture.

I feel that this content is clearly appropriate for the Steam platform, and for video games in general. I strongly support the right of adults to access and consume games with this type of content. Adult consumers rightly deserve access to adult content, and Steam is admirably fulfilling demand for the adult content categories of violence and gore. However, note that violent adult entertainment is available, while sexual adult entertainment is not available. I find this to be very perplexing, and this inequity ought to be worrisome for adult consumers. Personally, I am worried by this inbalance, and I know many others that are too.

Aside from the various points regarding the unbalanced nature of adult content on Steam, I feel that Valve is missing a massive influx of profit by dismissing games containing sexual content. There is, in fact, a niche genre of video games that contain open sexuality, especially within many anime-based visual novels. If Valve were to step forth and permit the publication of video games containing (intact) sexual content on their Steam platform, I believe that the financial results of adapting to fulfill a whole extra market would be noticable.

I have heard arguments that sexual material is inappropriate for minors, as it can easily fall into underaged hands. To these comments, I would like to point out that there is already a massive amount of content on Steam that is (by that definition) 'inappropriate for minors', and it too could fall into their hands. I believe that the age-verification systems currently in use by Steam (based around the user's birthday) would be appropriate to protect children from overt sexual content. After all, the system has already been deemed appropriate to protect children from overt gore and violence. So, while I am not an age-verification expert, I believe it is a fair and unobtrusive 'honesty-based' system. (To those who would complain that children can lie about their birthday, I would probably recommend the application of parental guidance and/or PC parental controls.)

Others have complained that explicit sexuality is inappropriate in general, as it serves to corrupt viewers psychologically, or is 'spiritually harmful' by some means. In defence against these claims, I would like to point out that we, as users of the Steam platform, generally live in free societies where we can make our own choices regarding our lives and wellbeing. Personally, I believe that access to sexual materials is in no way psychologically damaging; it is a valid form of media that expresses a very natural and very human process. Furthermore, I would like to dismiss claims regarding spiritual welfare, as religious beliefs vary wildly and cannot be measured in any empirical sense. I would suggest that the individual's right to freedom of choice overrides any such matters. Should someone not like sexual-based content, they are welcome to peruse any of the other games on Steam, which already number in the thousands.

Much to my sadness, several recent video games published on Steam (including Nekopara Vol. 1 and the Early Access Sunrider Academy) have had sexual content deliberately cut (presumably to meet Steam requests). As such, it is possible to see that paying customers are having content censored from them. Furthermore, at least one game has been removed from Steam Greenlight (that being Seduce Me). This game did not feature bloody combat with weapons, but only featured frontal, hand-painted sex scenes.

I appreciate that the Steam platform belongs to Valve, and that Valve ultimately has the full right to decide what does (and does not) get placed and sold on their store. I do respect this completely. However, my primary point with this feedback post is to bring the issue up with Valve, and kindly request that they reconsider their stance on the matter. If adult violence is okay, then there is no reason to believe that adult sexuality would not be okay too. I only wish to point out the inbalance, and politely ask for Valve's sincere consideration. (If not, then perhaps a general explanation of Valve's policy on sexual content, and how it contrasts with the ideas within general consumer feedback (including this feedback post), would be very thoughtful and helpful.)

I would like to complete my feedback by saying thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read my feedback. If you do agree with these beliefs, I would kindly ask that you please add your support in a reply below. Each single reply of support would help to bring this issue to the forefront of Valve's attention.

Thank you, and take care everyone.

TL;DR: There's lots of adult content on Steam, mainly gore and violence. That's great! I would like to see Steam allow other forms of adult content too, specifically sexual content, please.

Please note: I'm not trying to agitate anyone within the community. I honestly just want to give my feedback to Valve.

[mm.324]

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Your proposals do nothing to increase the difficulty in not allowing those under 18 from accessing the adult content you want.

Ultimately Steam would decide how "adult" games are accessed, we were just brainstorming. Remember the main point of the thread is asking Steam for "adult" games to be sold on this platform.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

You claim that there is nothing wrong with the current age gate system, but cannot remember that it is easily bypassed.

Are you being a troll or are you not reading the thread? It was generally acknowledged that the age gate system is easily bypassed and THAT'S WHY we were dicussing other methods. I would like to point out again that age gates are a legally accepted practice of restricting access to adult material.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

You have been given examples time and again showing that people object to a multitude of things that are considered lewd,

My Merriam-Webster dictionary defines lewd as "sexual in an offensive or rude way".What we are discussing is sexual, but where is the "offensive or rude"? People have objected to a lot of things....abolishing slavery, ending segregation, interracial marriage, entering WW 1, entering WW 2, gay marriage, and letting handicap people get a normal education. I could go on but I believe I made my point that there will always be those who object to something, but that doesn't make them right.

So if we use your logic, if people object to a product and there is go gauranteed way to block access to said product, then the product shouldn't be available on Steam. Say good-bye to any game that has violence, guns, pixal art, puzzles, first-person view, third-person view, etc. and I could do this all day. I'm a "dog person", I object to any game that makes cats (boooohisss) look loveable and caring because I know they secretly want to take over the world. By your logic cat games are now exiled from Steam.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

I do not think anyone is willing to have Steam become an adults only playground as it would then mean having to remove members who have been part of Steam for years and Valve is interested in making money from as many customers as possible.

Has EBAY become "an adults only playground"? By adding "adult" games it would bring more customers and their money. As proof just look at the fact that here in the USA alone the "adult industry" makes over a billion dollars a year.

Edit: fixed formatting

[Piggo]

Anyway, this will never become realised.
Trust me, it never will.

[Xedhadeaus]

I agree...
But only because it feels like media...

If a title exists only at the heavy hint of sexuality or sex, it shouldn't be there either. Not as an act of censorship... But as a deterrent for the half baked cause altogether.

Games like leisure Suit Larry come to mind. And other anime or dating simulators that have their screenshot sections ridden with the only thing the game is worth playing through for.

I say this because it feels as if developers who have not added those details and options are being supported to reproduce games with their lack of detail or freedom, and developers who have decided to artistically illustrate those details are getting the boot.

Don't get me wrong, suggestive games are cool, and suggestive games that offer a sexual element are obviously okay with steam, however, in that effect, the sex in the game is also an element in the game that should be appreciated.

I think the problem may be among the idea of not giving children any more of a reason to falsify age. As I don't think sexual mods are supported even on mature rated games. Or maybe they're trying to respect the idea of not selling anything that earns the rating of adults only.

Perhaps it's a step No one is willing to take, including steam.

[mm.324]

Lord Swaggington eredeti hozzászólása:

You don't ask your fave TV channel to broadcast your porn, so don't ask your fave game service.

Thanks for reminding me. Over the years I've had DirecTV, Dish Network, and now WOW Cable and they all have "Adult Channels" including Ecstasy Channel, Penthouse Channel, The Playboy Channel, and miscellaneous other pay-per-view adult entertainment channels. These channels are viewed by the simple act of pushing a couple of buttons, the charge is added to the bill thus a parent doesn't even know that a movie has been watched until the bill comes. The access to these channels can be blocked with a PIN, but how many parents have set-up the PIN? To all of you who are saying that Steam will somehow be damaged by allowing "adult" games to be sold, I ask you to look through the whole channel guide for your television provider and see if there isn't some adult channels. Has your television provider been damaged, in any way, by what you've found?

[WhiteKnight77]

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

Lord Swaggington eredeti hozzászólása:

You don't ask your fave TV channel to broadcast your porn, so don't ask your fave game service.

Thanks for reminding me. Over the years I've had DirecTV, Dish Network, and now WOW Cable and they all have "Adult Channels" including Ecstasy Channel, Penthouse Channel, The Playboy Channel, and miscellaneous other pay-per-view adult entertainment channels. These channels are viewed by the simple act of pushing a couple of buttons, the charge is added to the bill thus a parent doesn't even know that a movie has been watched until the bill comes. The access to these channels can be blocked with a PIN, but how many parents have set-up the PIN? To all of you who are saying that Steam will somehow be damaged by allowing "adult" games to be sold, I ask you to look through the whole channel guide for your television provider and see if there isn't some adult channels. Has your television provider been damaged, in any way, by what you've found?

I guarantee that the first adult charge added to a TV bill, parents set a PIN if they haven't at first. As far as HBO or other movie channels showing sexual content, and they have, they are paid for services unlike ABC, NBC, CBS or any other over the air station where there are still network censors who screen shows for content that might be considered lewd or offensive to community standards.

[mm.324]

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

Thanks for reminding me. Over the years I've had DirecTV, Dish Network, and now WOW Cable and they all have "Adult Channels" including Ecstasy Channel, Penthouse Channel, The Playboy Channel, and miscellaneous other pay-per-view adult entertainment channels. These channels are viewed by the simple act of pushing a couple of buttons, the charge is added to the bill thus a parent doesn't even know that a movie has been watched until the bill comes. The access to these channels can be blocked with a PIN, but how many parents have set-up the PIN? To all of you who are saying that Steam will somehow be damaged by allowing "adult" games to be sold, I ask you to look through the whole channel guide for your television provider and see if there isn't some adult channels. Has your television provider been damaged, in any way, by what you've found?

I guarantee that the first adult charge added to a TV bill, parents set a PIN if they haven't at first. As far as HBO or other movie channels showing sexual content, and they have, they are paid for services unlike ABC, NBC, CBS or any other over the air station where there are still network censors who screen shows for content that might be considered lewd or offensive to community standards.

My point was television providers offer adult programs but it in no way damages the provider in the comsumers eyes. I doubt people will get rid of their current provider if they discover adult channels in the guide. Also those channels have been there for quite a long time (in one form or another for over twenty years) and still many are unaware of them. But they must make money for the providers or they wouldn't continue to carry them. Here is another case of adult and non-adult entertainment coexisting on the same platform. I didn't bring up HBO and the others because they actually have to be added to the account, the channels I mentioned can be accessed with a few button pushes of the TV remote.

[Zenexras of Blackwick]

I support this, though i most likely won't buy any of them, because they aren't my thing... But still, i've read through and you seem to be coming up with a age gate that might work. The opt-in system once its advanced enough will work and please people, i think. But just a thought, i really think that you'll have a hard time convincing valve to do this. If they even care about this thread, that is. But best of luck to you anyhow.

[76561198184482466]

it wont work.. esp. for under-aged player.
if you really want it, just go buy the dvd version

[Unexpected]

hirukorabiuliah eredeti hozzászólása:

it wont work.. esp. for under-aged player.
if you really want it, just go buy the dvd version

i still think that, i may sound hard headed but too many people would find work-arounds

[WhiteKnight77]

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

I guarantee that the first adult charge added to a TV bill, parents set a PIN if they haven't at first. As far as HBO or other movie channels showing sexual content, and they have, they are paid for services unlike ABC, NBC, CBS or any other over the air station where there are still network censors who screen shows for content that might be considered lewd or offensive to community standards.

My point was television providers offer adult programs but it in no way damages the provider in the comsumers eyes. I doubt people will get rid of their current provider if they discover adult channels in the guide. Also those channels have been there for quite a long time (in one form or another for over twenty years) and still many are unaware of them. But they must make money for the providers or they wouldn't continue to carry them. Here is another case of adult and non-adult entertainment coexisting on the same platform. I didn't bring up HBO and the others because they actually have to be added to the account, the channels I mentioned can be accessed with a few button pushes of the TV remote.

Previously, it was, and still is, a premium service that has to be subscribed to, just like HBO, Cinemax, Starz or Showtime though if you are not subscribed to, you can buy a movie at a time hence the ability to get caught. If you try to watch an adult channel without a subscription or buy button, you get a you are not subscribed message from the provider, it just isn't scrambled like it was.

As I stated earlier, people would set up a PIN if they had kids and subscribed to adult entertainment to keep the kids from it.

[The doctor is in]

dayz has cannibalism

[Merim]

Lord Swaggington eredeti hozzászólása:

Anyway, this will never become realised.
Trust me, it never will.

Doubt, not saying 100% sure because there were times it wont realize as you said, but it will eventually. There were some games removed from Steam because of the content, but it was justified so in which Valve sent an apology for the misunderstanding and the developers who got their game removed from Steam was able to get it back in. So there is a chance they can have it back, but of course i wouldnt get confident.

Far as ik about adding something that "hide games that has sexual content" or whatever, doubt that also because there will be some underage people that would sneak up and remove that check box just so they can play them. Unless however it holds some sort of PIN then perhaps.

I'm still remain neutral to this idea, but i'm trying to see how this goes if i wanted to support this idea. Atm, i'm rather curious how this goes.

[mm.324]

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

hence the ability to get caught

And again I say

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

My point was television providers offer adult programs but it in no way damages the provider in the comsumers eyes

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

As I stated earlier, people would set up a PIN if they had kids and subscribed to adult entertainment to keep the kids from it.

The channels I mentioned do not need a subscription, they are pay-per-view. And as someone who worked in the satellite TV business for four years I can tell you that few people even realize they're there, only the people who were loking for them. So again I say

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

Here is another case of adult and non-adult entertainment coexisting on the same platform.

So far I've given three real examples where adult and non-adult products are(have) coexist(ed) on the same platform. While those who oppose "adult" games on Steam have yet to give one non-hypothetical occurrence where having both types of products have hurt a business or a person. Having "adult" games on Steam hurts noone.

[Kerfur]

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Your proposals do nothing to increase the difficulty in not allowing those under 18 from accessing the adult content you want.

I do not see why consenting adults ought to be disadvantaged due to dishonest children.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

You claim that there is nothing wrong with the current age gate system, but cannot remember that it is easily bypassed. You fail to remember that Family View or sharing is a user setting and is off by default and has to be set by the user. Having that set at default is still easily bypassed by using a fake birthdate.

A single click is all it takes to bypass it. I have recommended fortifiying the age verification system, for the sake of children.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Steam requires one to be at a minimum of 13, yet there have been underage users. I recall a user stating that they were 12 and ended up getting banned from the forums at least. The current way people can join Steam can easily be bypassed by a simple Yes or I agree click when agreeing to the Terms of Service. Even adding a birth date to the user's profile when joining can be bypassed.

Considering that Steam hosts games that my government identifies as "R18+" due to violence, the issue you are complaining about pre-exists. Adding video games with sexual content does not create a catalogue of offering for adults, it only extends the pre-existing catalogue of offering for adults.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Tying Steam to a credit card, since to be able to get a credit card, one has to be at least 18 to get one, would keep new people from joining between 13-18 who can use the Steam Wallet or Steam gift cards for purchases and I do not think anyone is willing to have Steam become an adults only playground as it would then mean having to remove members who have been part of Steam for years and Valve is interested in making money from as many customers as possible.

Good point. Let's dismiss the idea of using a credit card as the only form of identification for people over the age of majority.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

Could Valve have someone tag such games that you want as Adult Only? They do not tag games now and having the developer do it is meaningless. It isn't on Steam yet. The ESRB/PEGI has already given it a rating if the ESRB/PEGI has been given a chance to do so.

Steam quite happily ejects games with excessive sexual content from the Steam Store. Games like HuniePop, BoneTown, and Nekopara Vol. 1 all had to censor themselves. It seems to me that Valve could just as easily 'flag' a game as containing sexual content, rather than remove it completely or request the developer censor certain content.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

You have been given examples time and again showing that people object to a multitude of things that are considered lewd...

I object to lots of things, but I don't expect society to delete, destroy and/or inhibit those things for my sake.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

...yet you brush them off and blame it on bad parenting if kids run rampant over the internet. Maybe, but there are those who do care about the content their kids are able to access on the internet and elsewhere or what they can see out in public and that hasn't changed in over 100 years.

These parents should be performing their duties and offering a decent amount of parental guidance.

Steam is not a child's playground, nor is it a nanny service, nor is it a school yard. If a parent is going to allow a child to run rampant over the Internet, then they need to accept that their child may come into contact with sexual content, violent content, extremist religious content, political content, fascist content, racist content, homophobic content, transphobic content, and general hate speech. To wilfully allow a child access to that kind of material is negligent and tantamount to abuse. So, why should I, and others, be disadvantaged?

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

No one here has come up with a way to keep minors from easily bypassing the simple age gates and does nothing in preventing access to such. Even debit cards can be used to bypass credit card requirements.

There are heaps of solutions!

• We could give every single child on the planet an armed guard, that watches over them twenty-four/seven.
  
• We could institute a world-wide biometrics system requiring every computer to have a palm and retina reader, which ties into a massive online database of everyone's identity and age.
  
• We could require every person who wishes to go on the Internet get a special "Internet Drivers' License" which requires card holders to be over the age of majority, and without which they cannot use the Internet at all.
  
• We could have government employees to conduct random searches of Inernet users' homes, checking to ensure that children aren't accessing any naughtiness.
  
• We could shut down the Internet, and the printing presses, and the television networks, and the radios, and the whole recording industry, and then we can all sit around listening to our refrigerators hum.

Jokes about totalitarian protocols aside, I would like to point out the following issues:

• Any child can go to a 'chan' website and click "YES" to access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can go to Reddit and click "YES" to access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can go on Tumblr and click "YES" to access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can go on Google, turn off SafeSearch, and type "boobs" to access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child pick up a pornographic magazine from a newsagent shelf and access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can pick up a carving knife from their kitchen and stab their pet dog or their sibling to death.
  
• Any child can go hunting through their parents bedside cabinet and (possibly) access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can steal their older siblings'/parents' copy of GTA V to access inappropriate material.
  
• Any child can read certain religious texts to access inappropriate material.
  
• Ad infinitum...

You are advocating a safe and protected world for children that cannot exist. If you are that worried about the children, or if you are that worried about the people that worry about children, then I strongly suggest you leave the Steam community and start petitioning your federal government for increased safety measures for children in our society. You will never reach the lofty goals you appear to be aiming for, but you might get a little closer.

Steam selling copies of a cartoonish game like BoneTown is not going to corrupt children. The children that wanted to see an erect p*nis or a v*lva have already seen it on Reddit, or a 'chan' site, or in their fathers' copy of Penthouse Couples.

WhiteKnight77 eredeti hozzászólása:

I cannot help it if you cannot see the facts when presented to you.

I see the facts, and I offer explanations and solutions. I cannot help it if you cannot (or will not) read my replies properly.

[Kerfur]

Runex eredeti hozzászólása:

approved. at least on my side :D

Thank you so much for your support, Runex! ~

And I'd like to thank everyone else who has shown their support in this thread so far too. If we keep demonstrating to Valve that games with sexual content are desired and acceptable on their fantastic Steam platform, then hopefully we might be able to change their minds or at least get a response from them. ~

mm.324 eredeti hozzászólása:

Having "adult" games on Steam hurts noone.

I know my word might not count for much, but thanks again for helping out, and posting such well considered arguments.