PLEASE give us a way to filter out the shovel-ware.

[Amoc]

There was a time when I could log in to Steam and look up "New Releases","Upcoming" and "Popular" to actually find and discover new titles worth playing. These were great features and really helped me buy great games I might otherwise have missed.

With the flood-gates now open and a deluge of indie/back-catalogue/broken games cluttering the Steam store, these features are now functionally useless for a lot of us. There's literally NO reason I should be forced to sift through dozens of titles from categories I'd never even consider playing (anime pedo-bait, 8-bit retro trash, broken indie/early access crap).

I have no problem with those titles being in the store. Maybe other people like them. I do, however, have a problem with Steam shoving them in my face and refusing to give me any option to filter them out. I'm 100% not interested in anime titles. I never will be. Insisting that I go through them to find titles I may be interested in serves no purpose other than to annoy me and everyone else that shares my tastes. I spend far less time in the Steam store as a result, and thus spend signficantly less money there than I used to.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Publicado originalmente por 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:

to apply common sense and wisdom I know some will need one to resolve this.

Problem is that "apply[ing] common sense and wisdom" leads different people to different conclusions as to whether any particular game is or is not "shovelware".

Publicado originalmente por 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:

Additionally this is how I define Shovelware:

• Developers who name 3-6 other games to describe thier own game. IE: This game is just like Farcy and Skyrim had an orgy with BF4 and this would be their kid.

If you have to describe 3-6 other games and admit you're ripping off or cloning another product, it's a pretty damn good call that it is shovelware.

• Developers who call a game Roguelike when they are unware Rogue+like means to be like THE GAME Rogue.

• Developers who call a game Roguelike, when it just has random levels and doesn't even have permadeath. IE: Fundemental misunderstanding when it comes to the definitions for RANDOM vs PROCEDURAL GENERATED.

• Almost any developer that tries to hard to tell you what genre their game belongs in.

• Developers who pay people with game keys, or money for reviews.

Is this meant to be a definition, or just a list of common symptoms?

...hey wait, aren't you that person who was arguing about the definition of the term "roguelike" and nitpicking about the distinction between "random" and "procedurally-generated"?

[7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡tξr]

Take a deep breath, maybe drink a glass a water and revisit my post before you sound more like a troll.

--------> Shovelware Defined <-------


"Originally posted by 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:
-----------------------------------> Additionally <----------------- this is how -------->I<------------------ define Shovelware: <---------------------------

• Developers who name 3-6 other games to describe thier own game. IE: This game is just like Farcy and Skyrim had an orgy with BF4 and this would be their kid....

ETC. "


I can possibly draw pitcures for you if things are still over your head?


Also, yes that would be me and do you have a point?

Talk about a knee jerk reaction troll.

[Amoc]

Publicado originalmente por Quintelligent Calcium:

^ For this argument to work, we actually need some actually agreed-upon definition of shovelware.

Otherwise, different people will keep buying the games they like, and there'll be no coordinated push to eliminate such "shovelware", whatever it is.

First, can we at least acknowledge that there is a fair bit of shovel-ware on Steam? We don't necessarily need a specific or objective definition for shovel-ware to do that. We can simply accept that there are a lot of very low-quality games that the overwhelming majority of gamers would find completely unenjoyable even after you've accounted for different tastes and genres.

Once we've accepted very low-quality games exist, we can then ask questions like, "Should Steam be distributing these games" and, if so, "Should Steam be promoting them equally with all the more genuine and competent efforts?" If the answer to that is also yes, someone has to come up with a better explanation than "Because Money".

As for how we'd determine what is and what isn't low quality, there are plenty of fairly simple ways to do that. I invite you to use your imagination on that matter, but if you REALLY need some possibilities I can explain them.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

First, can we at least acknowledge that there is a fair bit of shovel-ware on Steam?

I could do that, but...

I haven't actually played most of the games on Steam, so for me to simply dismiss, as "shovelware", games that have a...wait, I'm not really sure how one decides a game is shovelware, other than by playing it.

I guess I can view some gameplay videos, and I want to point to examples like Big Rigs and Desert Gunner, but I don't think those are on Steam anymore. I know that The WarZ got thrown off Steam but I hear it's back on again as Infestation: Survivor Stories and I don't know much about its present incarnation, regarding whether it sucks as much as the original did.

But even with gameplay videos, for me to conclude that Steam actually has a significant shovelware problem (and not just a few bad games here and there), I'd actually have to go look up a bunch of them.

And that's not even getting into the problem of how we might differ in calling something "shovelware". For example, does a game have to be a buggy mess to be called shovelware? To what extent do older games count as shovelware? do they have to be unplayable on modern hardware to count? what if they're patched? Do games need to fall beneath a minimum playtime -- and how might that be measured?) Aggregate review score on Steam? (keep in mind that takes some time to build up, and only works AFTER a game has been released) ...so yeah now we're basically getting into the realm of trying to figure out a definition.

Anyway, I feel it's perfectly fair for me to say I'm not interested in them. I just am not sure it's fair for me to call them shovelware without having played them.

See I can totally accept your statement at face value:

We can simply accept that there are a lot of very low-quality games that the overwhelming majority of gamers would find completely unenjoyable even after you've accounted for different tastes and genres.

...but I'm not sure I have anything to back that up, aside from "it feels like there's a lot of stuff I don't like when I look at the Steam storefront". That's why I'm asking for more examples. With specifics.

Publicado originalmente por 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:

Also, yes that would be me and do you have a point?

Talk about a knee jerk reaction troll.

I was gonna continue the discussion regarding how you define "randomness" vs. procedural generation, but it seems that you're not particularly interested in having such a discussion.

[7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡tξr]

I applogize If I misread the intent of your words @Quintelligent Calcium, but it seemed like you didn't even read the definition from credible sources before you responded, even now asking for a clearly defined definition.

Here it is again for those that missed it:

"Shovelware is a derogatory computer jargon term that refers to software bundles noted more for the quantity of what is included than for the quality or usefulness.[1] The term is also used to refer to software that is ported from one computer platform or storage medium to another with little thought given to adapting it for use on the destination platform or medium, resulting in poor quality.[citation needed]

The metaphor implies that the creators showed little care for the quality of the original software, as if the new compilation or version had been created by indiscriminately adding titles "by the shovel" in the same way someone would shovel bulk material into a pile. The term "shovelware" is coined by semantic analogy to phrases like shareware and freeware, which describe methods of software distribution. It first appeared in the mid-1990s when large amounts of public domain, open source and shareware demos and programs were copied onto CD-ROMs and advertised in magazines or sold at computer flea markets.[1]

In video game terms, it can also mean poor quality, often licensed titles that are released en masse by a certain publisher or studio in order to profit from unwary buyers like children and the elderly.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shovelware


That said. "Roguelike Shovelware".

90% of the shovelware developers who are describe their game as "Roguelike" are doing so on the very misunderstanding of how even an traditional "Roguelike" should play, let alone have ever played Rogue, or know that "Roguelike" means to be like the game Rogue as previously mentioned.

That all said to be like Rogue, let's face it. You expect these things, perma-death, procedural levels and an unforgiving, if not unpredicatable environment.

Let's go back to that 90%, Shovelware developers are labeling their shovelware as Roguelike based on how levels are done in a traditional "Roguelike". If you are as a developer are to say that your game is Rogue+like=Roguelike. Well the levels simply being random shows you either never played Rogue, or have no real idea of the area you're describing.

Procedural Generation of a level is in fact random, most of the time based on a seed. Simply making your levels random doesn't make it "Roguelike" any more than Command and Conquer would be a "Roguelike" game for having a random level generator. As we see with alot of the hipster crap shovelware claiming to be "Roguelike".

Procedural Generation in level design is generating the level procedurally, usually at random, as you play. So it's not a post or pre operation and done kind of thing.

With this sort of logic any game with random levels is a "Roguelike" game. This obviously is not the case. While the game may feature racing, or car simulator gameplay mechanics, we would all agree, labeling Grand Theft Audo a racing siumulator would be a misrepresentation of the product.

[KamikaziFly]

I too used to purchase a ton more games than I have in at least the last year.

I also remember a sale sort filter. I looked at games that had the highest percentages off. I know that most of those games were crap, but found a few diamonds in the rough.

What I am saying is that I agree with the OP. I want a better way to find popularly liked games. I am now more likely to listen to school or work about what game to look into, instead of looking at what is pushed at me by the steam sales platform.

Now the funny part is, I don't mean that I want to purchase a large quantity of games. I can buy bundles of game keys if all I wanted were a ton of useless games for cheap. And if thats what the advertisers heard from this post, then they already lost my money.

Just a blatantly glaring side-note: On steam, if a game has non-positive reviews, I generally don't want to hear about it at all, never! But quite insistantly, I am referred to games that people wish they had never even played, let alone spent time on. And when I mark a game as "Not-Interested" I am still pushed to look at that specific game. I am guessing, at this moment, that it is due to developer advertisement. idk...

But basically I am not happy with my 'current' experience with the Steam Store. Does not my lack of spending show this?

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Publicado originalmente por 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:

I applogize If I misread the intent of your words @Quintelligent Calcium, but it seemed like you didn't even read the definition from credible sources before you responded, even now asking for a clearly defined definition.

Here it is again for those that missed it:

[text copied from Wikipedia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shovelware

We all saw it the first time. Thanks.

You're giving an encyclopedic description.

I'm asking for a workable definition, for the purpose of deciding whether any given game is shovelware.

Can I apply what you posted and, applying that and ONLY that "definition", come to a conclusion whether, say, Oozi: Earth Adventure counts as shovelware? No, I cannot. So your definition is not a workable definition for this purpose. It is informative, but it is not useful for this purpose.

Specifically, it is not useful because it uses as its bases such factors as the following;
* the quality of a game (which is often subjective and something people argue endlessly about)
* the intent of the developers (which is not something that can be reliably discerned in an indisputable and objective manner)

That's why I'm still asking for a definition. Some set of guidelines, that -- based SOLELY on looking at a game and its meta-information (e.g. store description), which is what we get to do in the Steam store -- can allow us to decide whether any particular game is "shovelware" or not.



re the term "roguelike"

In that other thread, I was just saying that different people take "roguelike" to mean different things. Any given game has many, many attributes people can point to, and Rogue is no different.

Thanks for clarifying your perspective on the term -- I think I understand better what you mean now. That said, just because a game that is being described as "roguelike" does not fit your definition of it, doesn't mean that it's also shovelware -- as far as I can tell, the two descriptors are independent of each other, and I see no reason to conclude that they should be somehow correlated.

In any case, I don't think I've looked at much of these "roguelike shovelware" games, so unless we've got specific examples to discuss, there's not much I can say about them.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Publicado originalmente por Kamikazi Flyswatter of Godspeed:

Just a blatantly glaring side-note: On steam, if a game has non-positive reviews, I generally don't want to hear about it at all, never! But quite insistantly, I am referred to games that people wish they had never even played, let alone spent time on. And when I mark a game as "Not-Interested" I am still pushed to look at that specific game. I am guessing, at this moment, that it is due to developer advertisement. idk...

I think that marking it "not interested" still lets it get put in the featured items scroller at the top of the store frontpage, but removes it from all other places. Or something like that. I remember reading that somewhere. I haven't personally checked this.

Publicado originalmente por Kamikazi Flyswatter of Godspeed:

But basically I am not happy with my 'current' experience with the Steam Store. Does not my lack of spending show this?

Your not spending money recently could be due to a number of factors. I would presume that if Valve wants to figure out whether a given change caused a particular result, they'd use statistics to try to "tease out" the effect of their, say, starting the Early Access program, and separate it from other things like economic downturns and the rise of competing services and such. Still, it's difficult to conclude things like that.

Posting your opinion here in the forum might be the best way to make a point of it. And I think a lot of people agree with you that Steam was better built for the days when releases were few and far between and Steam's library was much smaller.

[KamikaziFly]

I think Steam is a large entity capable of increasing the revenue of large and small corporations alike.

I think Steam is THE platform chosen by PC Gamers.

PC Gamers give Steam the voice and POWER to tell developers that when they port a game from a console to the Steam store, that they actually revamp the game to actually state mouse1 & asdw & space, instead of XY, AB, RightTrigger, Start, Select.

These are things important to a PC Gamer, which Steam only sells games to PC Gamers.

For an Entity with so much POWER, it is horrifying to watch it sit back and claim it has no claim.

Look at all these emoticons I bought. ;)

[7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡tξr]

Publicado originalmente por Quintelligent Calcium:

Publicado originalmente por 7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡╬ξrร:

I applogize If I misread the intent of your words @Quintelligent Calcium, but it seemed like you didn't even read the definition from credible sources before you responded, even now asking for a clearly defined definition.

Here it is again for those that missed it:

[text copied from Wikipedia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shovelware

We all saw it the first time. Thanks.

You're giving an encyclopedic description.

I'm asking for a workable definition, for the purpose of deciding whether any given game is shovelware.

Can I apply what you posted and, applying that and ONLY that "definition", come to a conclusion whether, say, Oozi: Earth Adventure counts as shovelware? No, I cannot. So your definition is not a workable definition for this purpose. It is informative, but it is not useful for this purpose.

Specifically, it is not useful because it uses as its bases such factors as the following;
* the quality of a game (which is often subjective and something people argue endlessly about)
* the intent of the developers (which is not something that can be reliably discerned in an indisputable and objective manner)

That's why I'm still asking for a definition. Some set of guidelines, that -- based SOLELY on looking at a game and its meta-information (e.g. store description), which is what we get to do in the Steam store -- can allow us to decide whether any particular game is "shovelware" or not.



re the term "roguelike"

In that other thread, I was just saying that different people take "roguelike" to mean different things. Any given game has many, many attributes people can point to, and Rogue is no different.

Thanks for clarifying your perspective on the term -- I think I understand better what you mean now. That said, just because a game that is being described as "roguelike" does not fit your definition of it, doesn't mean that it's also shovelware -- as far as I can tell, the two descriptors are independent of each other, and I see no reason to conclude that they should be somehow correlated.

In any case, I don't think I've looked at much of these "roguelike shovelware" games, so unless we've got specific examples to discuss, there's not much I can say about them.

This guy is an example of how people who own Shovelware studios think.

There has obviously been a "encyplopedic description", personal descriptions, mass pools of people who agree. Like with vaccines, there is again only an argument about it if you have no idea what it is you're talking about.

You're trolling sir, you said a whole lot without saying much of anything. You've really to be honestly saying the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing over and over again, despite it only being true in your own mind, if even there.

If you want examples read what people are saying, digest it, then reply.

Publicado originalmente por Kamikazi Flyswatter of Godspeed:

I think Steam is a large entity capable of increasing the revenue of large and small corporations alike.

I think Steam is THE platform chosen by PC Gamers.

PC Gamers give Steam the voice and POWER to tell developers that when they port a game from a console to the Steam store, that they actually revamp the game to actually state mouse1 & asdw & space, instead of XY, AB, RightTrigger, Start, Select.

These are things important to a PC Gamer, which Steam only sells games to PC Gamers.

For an Entity with so much POWER, it is horrifying to watch it sit back and claim it has no claim.

Look at all these emoticons I bought. ;)
:skulls::csgoanarchist::csgob::csgocross:
:csgoskull::deusex::jianh::f2_skull:
:clementineelf::Horzine::splitskull::mkb:
:sr4paul::angrytiger::pandashocked::profgenki:
:cyborg::Falcon::creedy::dirtblock:
:solitude:

Exactly. As I said previously.

Shoverware is produced because gamers buy shovelware. Encouraging people not to support shovel ware even if it comes from some farmer on top of a mountain, is the first step, or at least part of it.

[KamikaziFly]

Its true... But at least they now leave bad reviews for shovelware. I just don't like being forced to review shovelware constantly.

[KamikaziFly]

One example of shovelware, is nearly any game that was built for a phone, and later sold on steam. The term can't be applied to every game, cause some developers actually care. This is why no one is willing to name a game. Besides, isn't naming a product or company against some rule somewhere? Plus naming any specific game creates a specific target to argue about, when that target is not the address of this topic.

[7777 Tʜɛ Ӻ๑๛∂ß¡tξr]

Publicado originalmente por Kamikazi Flyswatter of Godspeed:

Its true... But at least they now leave bad reviews for shovelware. I just don't like being forced to review shovelware constantly.

I wonder if many of the people who oppose this argument have the same misunderstanding those have with other things, like procedural and random.

A bad game doesn't mean it's shovelware, anymore than a shovelware game can't be fun.

Paying for either when you know this prior to, I don't know how can be seen as anything else but condoning further simliar content.

IE: 10000 games trying to be exactly like Minecraft, but not really, only just enough to make a quick buck. Or promise this and that but never had intent to deliver. N/A games need not be refrerenced, I at least would say obviously.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Publicado originalmente por Kamikazi Flyswatter of Godspeed:

One example of shovelware, is nearly any game that was built for a phone, and later sold on steam. The term can't be applied to every game, cause some developers actually care. This is why no one is willing to name a game. Besides, isn't naming a product or company against some rule somewhere? Plus naming any specific game creates a specific target to argue about, when that target is not the address of this topic.

I've named several so far, and I encourage you and others to name more. That way we can actually have concrete examples to discuss.

Naming-and-shaming is not allowed against other users, but I've heard of no rules against criticizing products on Steam. And even if there is, I'd say let's name names until the mods tell us to stop. And I'll bet that, as long as we actually have something meaningful to discuss about them, it'll probably be fine.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Oh, to get us started with naming names and actually having something concrete to work with:

Games that have popularly been described as shovelware:

* Big Rigs - an infamous example of shovelware, known for its tons of bugs (albeit some of which are hilarious, e.g. going backwards at the speed of light). I don't think it's on Steam anymore, though.

* Desert Gunner - another infamous example of shovelware, known for its buggy graphics and gameplay conspicuously inconsistent with displayed flavor elements (e.g. very stupid enemy AI). I don't think it's on Steam anymore either.

* The War Z - something happened with this and accusations they were scamming customers; the game got removed and was later re-added as Infestation: Survivor Stories. I dunno much about this.



A few games I personally have played, and thus can comment on first-hand:

* Oozi: Earth Adventure - I described this above: it's a generally decent but not particularly distinctive game. Is this shovelware, and on what basis?

* Wooden Sen'SeY - another example similar to Oozi. This one actually has some distinctive mechanics too, but again, from what I've played of it, it seems like a pretty standard-fare platformer, nothing too special, but generally decent. Is it shovelware, and if so, on what basis?

* Bad Rats - It's sort of a consistently maligned game, to the point where it's rather infamous. I played it and it seems that the key problem is that it has features that don't go together well -- it is a physics sim but with random effects, a distinctive but not particularly good combination. Oddly, it predates both Greenlight and Early Access, as far as I remember. Is this shovelware, and if so, on what basis?