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Rokonuxa 15 AGO 2021 a las 10:16 a. m.
5
Steam forum moderation is too opaque for my tastes
Edit: This thread has (somehow) now been locked (and unlocked) twice. Neither action was given a reason either time it happened.

Currently, it is possible for posts to be removed without info on why. That is, there is not a clear message required, justifying the action.

This is leading to some unhappy people in some more ... involved threads.

Additionally, some actions that you DO get notified about, do not even quote an actual violation, seemingly being removed for "does not belong here", with no info on how exactly that is the case. There are of course obvious cases of derailment that exist, but many cases I have experienced in the past were not like that.

Another thing I have noticed is, that sometimes users are shoved into threads that are completely unrelated to their issues. This is seemingly done by support.


This post is motivated by an ongoing discussion about problems some people have with the current state of the steam library layout developement. (Where many lament how feedback during the beta was completely ignored and it was put into general use before hundreds of issues were fixed.)
This discussion has been plagued by trolls since the start, many of which remain unbanned (aside from one known case of someone evading a ban for unrelated reasons) while many comments providing feedback are removed routinely.
Because of this, it has become common to post the current expected post number of each comment, just to see how many times you can get the same repeat number.

Personally, I had consistently gotten a bulletpoint list of issues with the situation removed, in threads about the situation, with zero info on why this was done.

Basically, this thread is for talking about potential reasons for this style of moderation and support, and how to work towards improving the situation.

If there is a problem with this post being where and how it is, I would appreciate input on why, for obvious reasons.
Última edición por Rokonuxa; 1 SEP 2021 a las 1:57 a. m.
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Mostrando 61-75 de 480 comentarios
Aachen 15 AGO 2021 a las 3:49 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por binzwieda:
Steam level 0 Account... as usual in such cases.

For sure just an total coincedence.

“Coïncidentally,” all private profiles display as level zero.

It isn’t reliable information to judge a user’s contribution.
𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪 15 AGO 2021 a las 4:38 p. m. 
:PlusOneClick:

The total insistence by the mod team on striking down any suggestion that there be more transparency, accountability, or improvements to how they do moderation, is very telling how Steam moderators view us.

We really shouldn't have to suggest basic things like more transparency and more reasoning and have every excuse under the sun thrown for why I should pity an increased work load that's easily solved by having more mods, which most forums have more of for smaller sizes anyway.

When's the last time ANY mod on Steam promoted better transparency, more accountability, or any ethical reform to moderation, despite the obvious issues that have been very strongly and repeatedly pointed out by users?

-Now list all the times a user was punished for saying those very things in threads.

Completely agree with this suggestion, but at this point it's just the tip of the iceberg for improvements that need to happen. If Steam's mod team showed even a shred of awareness of apology for this issue, I wouldn't even bother because I'd at least know they're trying -but they really aren't. Users blindly backing the misuse of moderator authority on Steam really speaks volumes of the kind of culture moderators have bred here on Steam.
Aachen 15 AGO 2021 a las 4:45 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Epyc Wynn:

.... When's the last time ANY mod on Steam promoted better transparency, more accountability, or any ethical reform to moderation, despite the obvious issues that have been very strongly and repeatedly pointed out by users? ....

I think I’ve seen Killah Instinct, Spawn of Totoro and Tito Shivan all express sentiments in such a vein in the past, though I don’t have links any posts offhand.

.... -Now list all the times a user was punished for saying those very things in threads ....

Where’s the evidence that any such thing has even happened?

:orb::smallfire::affinitysupremacy: O, wait, RTFT:

Publicado originalmente por KillahInstinct:
Publicado originalmente por mm.324:
The way I see it, the poster should be notified every time one of their posts are removed from public view and if the mod removing it can't cite a specific rule then it shouldn't be removed.
I agree and have requested as much. That said, I don't see any removals that can't be easily clarified- so a big part of getting the answers you seek is simply reading the rules. I recommend the guide on my profile, it goes quite indepth on how the rules are enforced and why they are that way.

If you are removing 50 posts after one person went off topic do you think they should all be warned? Get a deletion reason?
Última edición por Aachen; 15 AGO 2021 a las 4:50 p. m.
𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪 15 AGO 2021 a las 4:53 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Aachen:
Publicado originalmente por Epyc Wynn:

.... When's the last time ANY mod on Steam promoted better transparency, more accountability, or any ethical reform to moderation, despite the obvious issues that have been very strongly and repeatedly pointed out by users? ....

I think I’ve seen Killah Instinct, Spawn of Totoro and Tito Shivan all express sentiments in such a vein in the past, though I don’t have links any posts offhand.

.... -Now list all the times a user was punished for saying those very things in threads ....

Where’s the evidence that any such thing has even happened?
My threads discussing moderator accountability have near unanimously been locked, as well as resulted in me receiving a warning or ban in each instance for making them or having discussion in them, in spite of maintaining civility and heavily following the letter of Steam's rules. Maybe I just don't follow the 'spirit' of the rules aka shutting the ♥♥♥♥ up about things that would curb power abuse, like Steam mods want me to. Support backing decisions even when they can't cite a single rule, even going as far as insisting the mod by default is right, only adds to my well-justified distrust of a group that has no true mechanism for accountability beyond the barest corporate minimum.

I'm unsure as to what Steam allows when it comes to screenshots of support tickets hosted on image-hosting sites or linking to past threads, as mods love to pretend anything is spam and/or a violation of rules if I do something vaguely different.

But if you have personal doubts I can at least assure you I have too many tickets of evidence and too many locked threads of evidence. It's just, when Steam users get dead set on interpreting things exclusively in favor of the Steam mods even when its patently obvious abuses of power are occurring, evidence stops having meaning to such numbly blind support.

At the very least I'm sure regulars of this subforum will vouche a good number of my threads on this matter are locked, as well as ones not made by me -it's almost like mods get rid of things that could 'threaten' their power.
Última edición por 𒐪⎝ Epylector ⎠𒐪; 15 AGO 2021 a las 4:57 p. m.
Aachen 15 AGO 2021 a las 5:06 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Epyc Wynn:
.... Maybe I just don't follow the 'spirit' of the rules aka shutting the ♥♥♥♥ up about things that would curb power abuse ....

I’ll preface by way of: I am not discarding the rest of your thoughts by drilling to this snippet, but it’s a particularly salient thread from my perspective.

I’ve read a fair number of the threads in question. I definitely feel you have flouted the spirit of the rules on multiple occasions (and you’re certainly not alone there—it may contribute to a sense of differential treatment). You absolutely could choose less-borderline posting behavior.

That said, I can understand how you feel; I see all-too-frequently threads that descend into wild finger-pointing and discussion of personalities over issues. A lot of them have no obvious action taken.

I don’t see it as too terrible a thing—mods more averse to using sanctions where technically they could be applied is a good thing. We all have moments stress leads us to hasty, inappropriate responses.

Anyway, I am unsure with what you’d replace weighting past history, if it were no longer factored.
Brian9824 15 AGO 2021 a las 6:20 p. m. 
It's very rare moderation is underserved.c in my entire time here it's happened twice and a quick ticket to support undid the moderation.

3 times if you count a mod who accidently warned me and then deleted it because he misclicked.

I know many people repeatedly get warnings for pushing the envelope in other threads, then complain when they go barely over the limit and the mods are like that is enough warnings and issue a ban.
Quint the Alligator Snapper 15 AGO 2021 a las 7:09 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por kitt:
see I have the completely different experience. And now what? I get "banned" by a Mod for reporting stuff, got 1 month ban for calling someone a Clown all the while my reports with Insults like: you are stupid, you are an idiot, hate speech, racism etc is untouched and yet to be dealt with weeks and months after.
I can't see what happens to reports I've filed, though I do remember filing some reports about posts that insult other users, among other things, where the posts in question seem to have stayed up, and the users in question weren't banned. (To be fair, I can't see whether they were warned.)

Publicado originalmente por kitt:
Well contacted Support, they literally told me they can't do anything on their Forums about postings or users all the while Support Stuff bans me for 1 month because I called someone a Clown.
My question why that was worth a ban but the Award is apparently ok was ignored like always.
Steam Support definitely does look at forums at least sometimes, and has been known to issue mod messages and mod actions. They have much less of a presence on the forums though, compared to community moderators.
kitt 15 AGO 2021 a las 7:18 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Quint the Alligator Snapper:
Publicado originalmente por kitt:
see I have the completely different experience. And now what? I get "banned" by a Mod for reporting stuff, got 1 month ban for calling someone a Clown all the while my reports with Insults like: you are stupid, you are an idiot, hate speech, racism etc is untouched and yet to be dealt with weeks and months after.
I can't see what happens to reports I've filed, though I do remember filing some reports about posts that insult other users, among other things, where the posts in question seem to have stayed up, and the users in question weren't banned. (To be fair, I can't see whether they were warned.)

Publicado originalmente por kitt:
Well contacted Support, they literally told me they can't do anything on their Forums about postings or users all the while Support Stuff bans me for 1 month because I called someone a Clown.
My question why that was worth a ban but the Award is apparently ok was ignored like always.
Steam Support definitely does look at forums at least sometimes, and has been known to issue mod messages and mod actions. They have much less of a presence on the forums though, compared to community moderators.

well, I didn't mean to delete my posts.. anyway, people can read most of it in that quote.

Apprently they do watch the Forums or I wouldn't have been banned for 1 month by a Staff Member for calling someone a "Clown" while complaining about the Jester Award, Staff not even seeing the word play.. but what do I expect from people who let CP/Racism/Hate Speech etc run freely..

I don't need that Forum, If Valve wants the Forum to be a place where people can use certain speech, whatever.

Not even worth contacting Support after a Staff Memeber bans you. The person who banned me could be the one answering/replying/ignoring/closing the Ticket and then you have the perma delete of Support ticket while every other nonsense is saved for eternity but not something you could need maybe in the future for providing information or even as proof..
Nx Machina 15 AGO 2021 a las 8:34 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Epyc Wynn:
My threads discussing moderator accountability have near unanimously been locked, as well as resulted in me receiving a warning or ban in each instance for making them or having discussion in them, in spite of maintaining civility and heavily following the letter of Steam's rules.

You flamebaited other posters and threatened to report them and all because people disagreed with your ideas and you wanted affirmation not discussion as can be seen by anyone who reads your threads.

Moderator and support rants, laying out YOUR rules for them to follow etc.

You were banned, warned for overstepping the rules, not following them, and falsely believing you are immune because you are looking to make these forums your personal blog and not a place for discussion.
Última edición por Nx Machina; 16 AGO 2021 a las 12:34 a. m.
greenraven22 15 AGO 2021 a las 8:51 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por brian9824:
It's very rare moderation is underserved.c in my entire time here it's happened twice and a quick ticket to support undid the moderation.

3 times if you count a mod who accidently warned me and then deleted it because he misclicked.

I know many people repeatedly get warnings for pushing the envelope in other threads, then complain when they go barely over the limit and the mods are like that is enough warnings and issue a ban.

Context is very important. I've been on Steam for a decade, never had any problems until I started posting in the topics that criticize the new client.



Publicado originalmente por kitt:
Not even worth contacting Support after a Staff Memeber bans you. The person who banned me could be the one answering/replying/ignoring/closing the Ticket and then you have the perma delete of Support ticket while every other nonsense is saved for eternity but not something you could need maybe in the future for providing information or even as proof..

Interestingly enough they can still see your support tickets. They just don't want YOU to still see them. This is no different than them suddenly hiding the number of downvotes.

https://imgur.com/k3GPDLr

Everything about the way Valve does business these days is dirty and underhanded.
Jackie Daytona 15 AGO 2021 a las 10:55 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
Currently, it is possible for posts to be removed without info on why. That is, there is not a clear message required, justifying the action.

This is leading to some unhappy people in some more ... involved threads.
This has been going on for years. What else is "new"?

Thread deletion is something I deal with all the time. I recently got a notification that a thread in which I commented got 44 replies... and was also deleted.

What thread was it? I don't know.
What did I say in the thread? I don't know.
Why was the thread a problem? I'll never know.
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
Additionally, some actions that you DO get notified about, do not even quote an actual violation, seemingly being removed for "does not belong here", with no info on how exactly that is the case. There are of course obvious cases of derailment that exist, but many cases I have experienced in the past were not like that.
Same here.

I've had over 100 posts deleted from Steam. I have yet to get an explanation as to why any of them violated the rules.
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
Another thing I have noticed is, that sometimes users are shoved into threads that are completely unrelated to their issues. This is seemingly done by support.
I've never seen that one.
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
This post is motivated by an ongoing discussion about problems some people have with the current state of the steam library layout developement. (Where many lament how feedback during the beta was completely ignored and it was put into general use before hundreds of issues were fixed.)
This discussion has been plagued by trolls since the start, many of which remain unbanned (aside from one known case of someone evading a ban for unrelated reasons) while many comments providing feedback are removed routinely.
Because of this, it has become common to post the current expected post number of each comment, just to see how many times you can get the same repeat number.
Yup. I stopped participating in that particular conversation over fears of being unfairly banned. Simply because I don't like how the library works now, and I have a desire to express that opinion. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be allowed.
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
Personally, I had consistently gotten a bulletpoint list of issues with the situation removed, in threads about the situation, with zero info on why this was done.
That's generally how it goes. This is what I've come to expect.
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
Basically, this thread is for talking about potential reasons for this style of moderation and support, and how to work towards improving the situation.
These threads pop up constantly. Sooner or later they are all locked. With most people speaking out against the mods getting their posts deleted and forum banned. (While everyone that trolls people with complaints are untouched.)
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
If there is a problem with this post being where and how it is, I would appreciate input on why, for obvious reasons.
You won't get it.
Rokonuxa 16 AGO 2021 a las 2:00 a. m. 
I wanna point out real quick how certain people in these threads are incapable of saying what they are even here for, aside from repeating that because this is a discussion forum, they are allowed to be here.
Psymon² 16 AGO 2021 a las 2:10 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Jackie Daytona:
This has been going on for years. What else is "new"?

Thread deletion is something I deal with all the time. I recently got a notification that a thread in which I commented got 44 replies... and was also deleted.

What thread was it? I don't know.
What did I say in the thread? I don't know.
Why was the thread a problem? I'll never know.
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/135508031953236963/
there's a thread for that :D
see post #150 for a "work around"
but do please add to the thread to show support
Psymon² 16 AGO 2021 a las 2:12 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
I wanna point out real quick how certain people in these threads are incapable of saying what they are even here for, aside from repeating that because this is a discussion forum, they are allowed to be here.
yup, gaslighting.

they will accuse you of the very things they do,
then when you try to accuse them,
they treat you like you're insane.

there's a place for people like them,
but i daren't mention the site by name.
Nx Machina 16 AGO 2021 a las 2:17 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Rokonuxa:
I wanna point out real quick how certain people in these threads are incapable of saying what they are even here for, aside from repeating that because this is a discussion forum, they are allowed to be here.

People are on here expressing other opinions, opinions you do not agree with.

You can unsubscribe or start a blog or group and have control.
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