Steam forum moderation is too opaque for my tastes

[Rokonuxa]

Edit: This thread has (somehow) now been locked (and unlocked) twice. Neither action was given a reason either time it happened.

Currently, it is possible for posts to be removed without info on why. That is, there is not a clear message required, justifying the action.

This is leading to some unhappy people in some more ... involved threads.

Additionally, some actions that you DO get notified about, do not even quote an actual violation, seemingly being removed for "does not belong here", with no info on how exactly that is the case. There are of course obvious cases of derailment that exist, but many cases I have experienced in the past were not like that.

Another thing I have noticed is, that sometimes users are shoved into threads that are completely unrelated to their issues. This is seemingly done by support.


This post is motivated by an ongoing discussion about problems some people have with the current state of the steam library layout developement. (Where many lament how feedback during the beta was completely ignored and it was put into general use before hundreds of issues were fixed.)
This discussion has been plagued by trolls since the start, many of which remain unbanned (aside from one known case of someone evading a ban for unrelated reasons) while many comments providing feedback are removed routinely.
Because of this, it has become common to post the current expected post number of each comment, just to see how many times you can get the same repeat number.

Personally, I had consistently gotten a bulletpoint list of issues with the situation removed, in threads about the situation, with zero info on why this was done.

Basically, this thread is for talking about potential reasons for this style of moderation and support, and how to work towards improving the situation.

If there is a problem with this post being where and how it is, I would appreciate input on why, for obvious reasons.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Nx Machina:

@ Quint

As Mr. Gentlebot posted:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mr. Gentlebot:

Illogical and clearly untrue within full context. Looks like you're just trying to start an argument.

...what do you mean by requoting this?

[Rokonuxa]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Satoru:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/2962768084999967276/?ctp=6#c4263206669450610768

I don’t think you understand what “opaque” means nor do you seem to understand the rules

Opaque definition is - blocking the passage of radiant energy and especially light : exhibiting opacity. How to use opaque in a sentence.

basically, not clear.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Some moderators expend a lot of time communicating... perhaps giving certain disingenuous people too much attention while ignoring others. Others don't communicate with people at all.

Whether the person who started this topic is doing so in bad faith or not, there is still a point worth considering here. Several of them, actually.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Satoru:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/2962768084999967276/?ctp=6#c4263206669450610768

I don’t think you understand what “opaque” means nor do you seem to understand the rules

It's the opposite of transparent.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Nx Machina:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

The sheer number of times you've complained about a huge variety of other people "requir[ing] affirmation" shows that you're the one who "require[s] affirmation" yourself.

As in the sheer number of times you jump on a thread and try to correct everyone who CAN disagree with a suggestion BUT you feel they should not, or the very fact that everyone posting a suggestion, idea wants affirmation and not discussion including yourself.
...

Misrepresentation of suggestions & false claims about people's egos is not a discussion of the topic subject - it's merely starting a personal argument over contrarianism.

Whether someone wants affirmation or not is actually irrelevant to the merit (or lack thereof) of the suggestion.

Plenty of people know how to read & contextualize that this is going on, so it's not worth arguing about for several pages of posts (like people often do) but that is a common theme & behavior around here... and people can see what is actually going on.
It's worth mentioning once or twice.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Nx Machina:

... or the very fact that everyone posting a suggestion, idea wants affirmation and not discussion including yourself.
...

Sometimes it really is EVERYONE else that has a big ego but more often... one should consider looking in the mirror

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[Psymon²]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Nx Machina:

@ Quint

As Mr. Gentlebot posted:

...what do you mean by requoting this?

since they accuse others of doing it, maybe we should assume that THEY are doing the "alt account" thing, so there's SOMEONE they can agree with, regardless of why they're saying the same thing?

not worth taking the bait, really.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

...what do you mean by requoting this?

since they accuse others of doing it, maybe we should assume that THEY are doing the "alt account" thing, so there's SOMEONE they can agree with, regardless of why they're saying the same thing?

not worth taking the bait, really.

I can't tell whether any given account is an alt, anyway, so I just respond to what they have to say anyway. If someone's got a good point, they still have a good point even if it's posted under an alt. Same if someone's got a bad point.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

Whether someone wants affirmation or not is actually irrelevant to the merit (or lack thereof) of the suggestion.

Also this.

Anyway...

I think that post deletion ought to be accompanied by some indication that there was a post there and it was deleted for spam.

But I think the Steam forum system also has a thing where if you delete a more recent spam necro post the thread gets sunk back down, rather than staying near the top.

Various people, including myself, have sometimes responded to threads near the top thinking they're current, even if they were just necro'd by some spammer.

If there's some way to have the indication but also keep the thread sunken, I think that might help.

[Mad Scientist]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Nx Machina:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

The sheer number of times you've complained about a huge variety of other people "requir[ing] affirmation" shows that you're the one who "require[s] affirmation" yourself.

As in the sheer number of times you jump on a thread and try to correct everyone who CAN disagree with a suggestion BUT you feel they should not, or the very fact that everyone posting a suggestion, idea wants affirmation and not discussion including yourself.

or as Mr. Gentlebot put it.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mr. Gentlebot:

Illogical and clearly untrue within full context. Looks like you're just trying to start an argument.

The one where a user had 4GB of RAM and a very low end CPU wanting Steam to not update their client or otherwise allow a much older client was a great example of exactly this, the whole feeling as if other users should not disagree with it, despite the forward-nature of Steam.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

oh, turns out i did read at least one post:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mr. Gentlebot:

just trying to start an argument.

very curious choice of words you've used 🤔

My responses like the others in threads pertain to the issues of the "suggestions" which are always very obvious, especially in threads making "suggestions" about moderation after users being correctly moderated. Not liking the responses is not seeking an argument, it's pointing out the flaws/issues with the typically poorly thought out suggestions, which a large number of them seek to have a want for Valve to forcefully do something on behalf of others or break local/international laws. Others are just not well thought out, don't work, or are removed things like Crypto or other abused things.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

...what do you mean by requoting this?

since they accuse others of doing it, maybe we should assume that THEY are doing the "alt account" thing, so there's SOMEONE they can agree with, regardless of why they're saying the same thing?

not worth taking the bait, really.

Quoting another does not mean something is "bait" for just being in agreement. In fact, I believe I've had a few disagreements with the individual over time.

Not to mention, if we were to for a moment take on the extremely noticeable similarity of yourself & your friend such as overly similar backseat moderation passive-aggressive threats when users disagree with you two, let alone how things are written you do appear as possibly the same user with an alt. However, there is also clearly a difference in your writing style, which just suggests one is coaching the other on what to say from time-to-time; though following your friends advice is likely going to be detrimental to your forum experience.

Though, each persons experience or thoughts on a user typically doesn't become anothers personal issue, even if they're friends. Ones issue is theirs and theirs alone, as you can't typically trust someone to give you a correct version of the story when it comes from a point of bias.

This however, has nothing to do with the topic, and to hold to ones standards;

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

this thread is getting derailed (typical), kindly keep it relevant and constructive.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Rokonuxa:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Satoru:

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/2962768084999967276/?ctp=6#c4263206669450610768

I don’t think you understand what “opaque” means nor do you seem to understand the rules

Opaque definition is - blocking the passage of radiant energy and especially light : exhibiting opacity. How to use opaque in a sentence.

basically, not clear.

However the rules are quite clear, which is why in many cases if something is deleted most regular users automatically know the reason(s) for such. I can see why you personally might want it, but seeing the other thread & its examples that are still visible, make the situation extremely clear as to the "Why".

[Nx Machina]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

Misrepresentation of suggestions & false claims about people's egos is not a discussion of the topic subject - it's merely starting a personal argument over contrarianism.

There is definitely no misrepresentation on my part.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

Whether someone wants affirmation or not is actually irrelevant to the merit (or lack thereof) of the suggestion.

Based on the very simple premise that everyone posting a suggestion presumes and assumes it is a good idea, affirmation is actually a requirement and the merits or lack of are the purpose of a discussion.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at:

Sometimes it really is EVERYONE else that has a big ego but more often... one should consider looking in the mirror :lookcloser:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


:anywaycircleoffire:

I could look in a mirror. You can assume i have a big ego BUT neither would alter my opinions. More odd is that you posted a link and excluded yourself from the point you were trying to make.

[KillahInstinct]

I am sure we can have a discussion about the rules without getting personal

[[bin]zwieda]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Alligator Snapper:

...what do you mean by requoting this?

since they accuse others of doing it, maybe we should assume that THEY are doing the "alt account" thing, so there's SOMEONE they can agree with, regardless of why they're saying the same thing?

not worth taking the bait, really.

Oh darn... you caught me. It´s all just me, using 86 different accounts, keeping a 2 years ongoing self talk alive.

Trying to discredit people with strange, far-fetched constructions - as you seem to try to do - would be generally called how exactly in your opinion?

[greenraven22]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mr. Gentlebot:

Examples are usually helpful, else we can safely make the educated guess that "plagued by trolls" just means people you disagree with, especially if the complaint is they are not banned but something only happened to you.

Here is a perfect example.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1745643015563656613/

Users with epilepsy and other photosensitive conditions voiced their concerned. They were mocked, ridiculed, and banned. The instigators were left to rampage unchecked.



The biggest issue I have with moderation is the recent admission that Support seems to operate by completely different rules that don't even apply to the forums.

Diposting pertama kali oleh KillahInstinct:

As I explained before, Steam support applies different rules than we even know about.

What's even the point then? Mods and support don't communicate and in the end support just does what it wants anyway. Meanwhile mods are free to abuse their powers and support won't do anything about it.



The other issue I have is that you can and will be banned for the pettiest reasons.

https://imgur.com/1aHK2Ya

The new client is giving you migraines? That's bad for PR. Clearly you're just lying.


https://imgur.com/EGdhSJa

You didn't like their favorite game? Heresy. Clearly that's a Terms Of Service violation.

[Psymon²]

Diposting pertama kali oleh binzwieda:

Oh darn... you caught me. It´s all just me, using 86 different accounts, keeping a 2 years ongoing self talk alive.

Trying to discredit people with strange, far-fetched constructions - as seem to try to do - would be generally called how exactly in your opinion?

Hi, nice of you to join us.
yes I'm making reference to the multiple times others in this forum have accused me of being an alt for someone else, thank you

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Psymon²:

Diposting pertama kali oleh binzwieda:

Oh darn... you caught me. It´s all just me, using 86 different accounts, keeping a 2 years ongoing self talk alive.

Trying to discredit people with strange, far-fetched constructions - as seem to try to do - would be generally called how exactly in your opinion?

Hi, nice of you to join us.
yes I'm making reference to the multiple times others in this forum have accused me of being an alt for someone else, thank you :D:

I'm still wondering who Mr. Gentlebot thinks "coached" whom, as he mentioned here:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mr. Gentlebot:

However, there is also clearly a difference in your writing style, which just suggests one is coaching the other on what to say from time-to-time; though following your friends advice is likely going to be detrimental to your forum experience.

If he thinks I coached you, then that's just laughable since I haven't and I wouldn't even care to do so. And if he thinks that just because you're on my friends list we're somehow in cahoots with each other, then he doesn't know how I basically add anyone if I have a practical reason to do so, sometimes for something as simple as leaving a message or making a trade request.



Anyhow...getting back on topic...

Diposting pertama kali oleh greenraven22:

The biggest issue I have with moderation is the recent admission that Support seems to operate by completely different rules that don't even apply to the forums.

This thread seems like a more appropriate place for me to mention the following:

I once got a mod message from Steam Support. I replied to it, asking for a clarification, but got no answer. I wrote another follow-up reply, asking for a clarification, and still have got no answer.

Does the normal "reply to your mod message" not work when Steam Support posts them?

[Garou]

I'm pretty happy because I barely use Steam forum anymore.

[Psymon²]

Diposting pertama kali oleh reaper:

I'm pretty happy because I barely use Steam forum anymore.

ignorance is bliss
might be the best decision to make :C
[TinFoilHat] but that's what THEYYYY want [/hat]

[[bin]zwieda]

Steam level 0 Account... as usual in such cases.

For sure just an total coincedence.