Steam forum moderation is too opaque for my tastes

[Rokonuxa]

Edit: This thread has (somehow) now been locked (and unlocked) twice. Neither action was given a reason either time it happened.

Currently, it is possible for posts to be removed without info on why. That is, there is not a clear message required, justifying the action.

This is leading to some unhappy people in some more ... involved threads.

Additionally, some actions that you DO get notified about, do not even quote an actual violation, seemingly being removed for "does not belong here", with no info on how exactly that is the case. There are of course obvious cases of derailment that exist, but many cases I have experienced in the past were not like that.

Another thing I have noticed is, that sometimes users are shoved into threads that are completely unrelated to their issues. This is seemingly done by support.


This post is motivated by an ongoing discussion about problems some people have with the current state of the steam library layout developement. (Where many lament how feedback during the beta was completely ignored and it was put into general use before hundreds of issues were fixed.)
This discussion has been plagued by trolls since the start, many of which remain unbanned (aside from one known case of someone evading a ban for unrelated reasons) while many comments providing feedback are removed routinely.
Because of this, it has become common to post the current expected post number of each comment, just to see how many times you can get the same repeat number.

Personally, I had consistently gotten a bulletpoint list of issues with the situation removed, in threads about the situation, with zero info on why this was done.

Basically, this thread is for talking about potential reasons for this style of moderation and support, and how to work towards improving the situation.

If there is a problem with this post being where and how it is, I would appreciate input on why, for obvious reasons.

[Aachen]

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

But if we're expected to follow "the rules" then mods should be able to point to a specific rule when taking an action. If they can't figure out which rule was broken then how are we supposed to?

If action is taken against a user, there’s an appeal process.

Not all causes of moderator actions rise to the level of rule-violation—or would you prefer anytime a user posts in the wrong section (e.g.) it should result in a warning/ban?

[Rokonuxa]

Първоначално публикувано от Mr. Gentlebot:

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

No, I don't mean just a link to the rules. I mean they should cite the specific rule that was supposedly broken.

They don't have to cite what is clearly on that page.
People should always read the rules before posting in a section, and check stickied threads that may be related.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Good overall devils advocate (I think thats the term here?) but my experience is vastly different from the cases you name here.

Again, an example would be great. We've seen many one-sided stories here that end up being... quite exaggerated.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

The trolls disagreed with me, yes, but they also definitely are trolls.

I'm having doubts, many toss the word trolls/trolling around far too easily especially when it involves disagreements.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

I mean, there is disagreeing, and there is going actively after people and telling them they are wrong about an issue every single day, despite evidence to the contrary, then slowly shifting to a copypasta about reporting issues in ways that have so far not led to any tangible change every 2-4 days.

Well a lot of people think their own brand is quite nice or accurate; when it is factually or otherwise clearly not. We have people in the Suggestions area, that are 100% wrong all the time and are told so quite often by numerous users; this seems little different from what you're describing, which is a non-issue and is not considered trolling. Though again, specific examples could confirm what you say, or bring confirmation that it is indeed incorrect. Users however, are not your personal army for whatever issue you're having.

Does it have anything to do with this?:

Първоначално публикувано от KillahInstinct:

Seriously? I tell you this is not the place and you continue..?

I feel like this is an endless loop. You keep derailing threads and then wondering why posts are deleted.

I get it, you are unhappy your specific wishes are not implemented but thats not a free pass to break the rules. Many other things are implemented, and with millions of users you can't satisfy everyone. We already determined a lot of the original issues where fixed one way or another, and there should be enough room for improvement, but things don't get good instantly and take work and time.

Make the thread, suggestions and or Steam Discussions seem like a great place to have a discussion about the rules, moderation and what not. And we have had many over the years.

Getting examples will take a while, but yes, it has something to do with that thread and the comments nobody is able to see anymore, that deliver proper context.

[mm.324]

Първоначално публикувано от Mr. Gentlebot:

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

No, I don't mean just a link to the rules. I mean they should cite the specific rule that was supposedly broken.

They don't have to cite what is clearly on that page.
People should always read the rules before posting in a section, and check stickied threads that may be related.

Would you expect a cop to pull you over and hand you a ticket without at least writing your violation on it?

[Rokonuxa]

Ok, I tried to get examples, but they were removed (lol) so just go back like 3-5 pages on my posts.

Do note, that is still about 2 years after the whole issue started, meaning there is quite a bit of anger in how I write in those threads.

Gonna put links here, of some examples.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/593110/eventcomments/1640926712932113346/?ctp=421#c4472613273103938593

https://steamcommunity.com/app/593110/eventcomments/1640926712932113346/?ctp=421#c3073118388424911824
A list of issues, below which a user calls it a rant. The same user has done this for ~2 years consistently.

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/2962768084999964961/?ctp=7#c3108014879953305415
Another list, that was removed previously with no explanation.

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/2260188150857745876/
Thread about listing issues, for support/devs to just pick and maybe fix. Locked without reason.

https://steamcommunity.com/groups/SteamClientBeta/discussions/3/1642052612841407353/?ctp=39#c2962768084999838249
List of issues like I talked about, specifically with moderation.

[Paratech2008]

Any time I received a warning or a ban I've received a reason. If the post is simply removed, I'd just be happy that was all the moderator did and try not to get in any worse trouble.

[Kiddiec͕̤̱͋̿͑͠at 🃏]

Първоначално публикувано от The End:

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

No, I don't mean just a link to the rules. I mean they should cite the specific rule that was supposedly broken.

I guess you did not see this on that site.

Please note that Administrators/Moderators reserve the right to change/edit/delete/move/merge any content at any time if they feel it is inappropriate, abusive, or incorrectly categorized.

Yet, this guide that the mods frequently display on their profiles & sometimes link to, contradicts the ambiguity of that:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=143962136

"If you encounter problematic moderation, you're welcome to contact Steam Support, however it's typically easier to find and speak with a moderator after reviewing your own actions in accordance with the rules."

...yet people still get no explanation most of the time -
even when attempting to seek clarification from a mod ...by asking.

2 of the mods on that guide have answered questions of mine before but other mods who link to it can't even be bothered to give a dismissive response that they don't want to be asked the question, despite obviously endorsing it by linking to it. In doing so, they endorse the questions being brought to them too because, the guide clearly says:

"If you encounter problematic moderation, you're welcome to contact Steam Support, however it's typically easier to find and speak with a moderator after reviewing your own actions in accordance with the rules."

[Nx Machina]

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

I mean, there is disagreeing, and there is going actively after people and telling them they are wrong about an issue every single day, despite evidence to the contrary, then slowly shifting to a copypasta about reporting issues in ways that have so far not led to any tangible change every 2-4 days.

When you will not accept opinions and actively discourage others by actively going after them, it really is hypocritical especially when users admitted that how they use the library may be an issue.

Първоначално публикувано от greenraven22:

I'm still convinced that all the problems are relative to the size of your library. Because at 3,000 games my client now seems to be crashing MORE.

https://imgur.com/UYWdAXD

After all posters from the other camp have had posts removed, warnings, and in some cases banned or asked to remove themselves from a thread.

When i posted videos showing my library in action with none of those issues, the memory usage of Steam on my PC they were dismissed. Only "issues" are relevant from your point of view and so we are actively discouraged from participating on said threads.

Or the very fact that the advice from KillahInstinct was ignored.

Първоначално публикувано от KillahInstinct:

Seriously? I tell you this is not the place and you continue..?

I feel like this is an endless loop. You keep derailing threads and then wondering why posts are deleted.

I get it, you are unhappy your specific wishes are not implemented but thats not a free pass to break the rules. Many other things are implemented, and with millions of users you can't satisfy everyone. We already determined a lot of the original issues where fixed one way or another, and there should be enough room for improvement, but things don't get good instantly and take work and time.

Make the thread, suggestions and or Steam Discussions seem like a great place to have a discussion about the rules, moderation and what not. And we have had many over the years.

And even on here you post:

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

The trolls disagreed with me, yes, but they also definitely are trolls.

Trolls? and simply because they disagree and anyone who disagrees is an instant "troll".

[KillahInstinct]

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

The way I see it, the poster should be notified every time one of their posts are removed from public view and if the mod removing it can't cite a specific rule then it shouldn't be removed.

I agree and have requested as much. That said, I don't see any removals that can't be easily clarified- so a big part of getting the answers you seek is simply reading the rules. I recommend the guide on my profile, it goes quite indepth on how the rules are enforced and why they are that way.

If you are removing 50 posts after one person went off topic do you think they should all be warned? Get a deletion reason?

[Rokonuxa]

Първоначално публикувано от Nx Machina:

When i posted videos showing my library in action with none of those issues, the memory usage of Steam on my PC they were dismissed as only "issues" are relevant from your point of view and so we are actively discouraged from participating on said threads.

Imagine going up to a car crash and talking about how you do not have broken legs.

[Mad Scientist]

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

Първоначално публикувано от Mr. Gentlebot:

They don't have to cite what is clearly on that page.
People should always read the rules before posting in a section, and check stickied threads that may be related.

Would you expect a cop to pull you over and hand you a ticket without at least writing your violation on it?

This isn't a traffic stop, this is a forum. You agreed to the rules when you entered the forums, let alone started using Steam of which you basically hit "I agree to these terms" which suggests you read them.

Tickets have the violation on it, as will any police report involved if needed. But vehicles are potentially dangerous tools in the wrong hands that can get oneself and/or others killed if improperly used. Improperly using the forums will not result in potential death of another person or property damage, these are extremely different and unalike things. You also do not need insurance to use the Steam Forums nor government ID. Unlike the insurance, registration and ID requirement of vehicles, all you had to do was hit the "I accept these terms" that says you read & understood the rules etc.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Getting examples will take a while, but yes, it has something to do with that thread and the comments nobody is able to see anymore, that deliver proper context.

Let me do it, since I can just take a look:

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Decision was upheld. Proposing another thread whereever appropriate about steam employee and helper incompetence, to make sure it is on topic.

Has nothing to do with the subject, derailing and insulting staff that was involved.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Yeah, heads up for those who are mad when we talk about the problems they cause:

A good way to stop people from talking about the problems you cause is to stop causing those problems. This goes for UI stuff as well as the sheer incompetence and elitism in staff.

Still nothing to do with the topic, continued insulting and name-calling of staff.

Both are actually enough for a temp ban - I've seen people temp'd for far less, but killah seems to be patient with you due to understanding you're angry about the issue, though said mod has told you what to do - and here you are, doing exactly that;

Първоначално публикувано от KillahInstinct:

There are plenty of ways you can speak freely about moderation, rules, or give feedback otherwise.

Doing it in this thread is not it.

You made a thread here, as suggested. That's at least an improvement compared to other users.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Първоначално публикувано от Nx Machina:

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Edit: Oh look, an example showed up.

As i stated in my edit:

Първоначално публикувано от Nx Machina:

and the very fact that others not agreeing with your stance are classified as trolls and you and others do not want other opinions in opposition to your own, nor help solving issues.

Not entirely sure why this thread was needed when the entire drama can be followed on the Steam Client beta forum.

FYI, a moderator specifically asked for a thread to be created in this forum rather than that one.

Please do not render this conversation yet another one about your bitterness toward people who dislike the new Steam client UI.

[Rokonuxa]

Първоначално публикувано от Mr. Gentlebot:

Първоначално публикувано от mm.324:

Would you expect a cop to pull you over and hand you a ticket without at least writing your violation on it?

This isn't a traffic stop, this is a forum. You agreed to the rules when you entered the forums, let alone started using Steam of which you basically hit "I agree to these terms" which suggests you read them.

Tickets have the violation on it, as will any police report involved if needed. But vehicles are potentially dangerous tools in the wrong hands that can get oneself and/or others killed if improperly used. Improperly using the forums will not result in potential death of another person or property damage, these are extremely different and unalike things. You also do not need insurance to use the Steam Forums nor government ID. Unlike the insurance, registration and ID requirement of vehicles, all you had to do was hit the "I accept these terms" that says you read & understood the rules etc.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Getting examples will take a while, but yes, it has something to do with that thread and the comments nobody is able to see anymore, that deliver proper context.

Let me do it, since I can just take a look:

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Decision was upheld. Proposing another thread whereever appropriate about steam employee and helper incompetence, to make sure it is on topic.

Has nothing to do with the subject, derailing and insulting staff that was involved.

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Yeah, heads up for those who are mad when we talk about the problems they cause:

A good way to stop people from talking about the problems you cause is to stop causing those problems. This goes for UI stuff as well as the sheer incompetence and elitism in staff.

Still nothing to do with the topic, continued insulting and name-calling of staff.

Both are actually enough for a temp ban - I've seen people temp'd for far less, but killah seems to be patient with you due to understanding you're angry about the issue, though said mod has told you what to do - and here you are, doing exactly that;

Първоначално публикувано от KillahInstinct:

There are plenty of ways you can speak freely about moderation, rules, or give feedback otherwise.

Doing it in this thread is not it.

You made a thread here, as suggested. That's at least an improvement compared to other users.

That reminds me, I should link this thread in my last comment to make sure others do not get ignored.

[Rokonuxa]

Първоначално публикувано от Quint the Alligator Snapper:

Първоначално публикувано от Nx Machina:

As i stated in my edit:




Not entirely sure why this thread was needed when the entire drama can be followed on the Steam Client beta forum.

FYI, a moderator specifically asked for a thread to be created in this forum rather than that one.

Please do not make this thread about your bitterness toward people who dislike the new Steam client UI.

If they do not follow me into this thread, they do not need to be adressed.

[Nx Machina]

Първоначално публикувано от Rokonuxa:

Imagine going up to a car crash and talking about how you do not have broken legs.

As in offering advice, showing videos and been ignored because YOU only require affirmation and because you have a problem everyone should or you and others break the rules, go off topic. derail threads and are subsequently moderated due to your own actions. Absolutely.

You are after all proving my point by the comments you are making.

[Yasahi]

Първоначално публикувано от KillahInstinct:

If you are removing 50 posts after one person went off topic do you think they should all be warned? Get a deletion reason?

I'd expect the user to be community banned for at least 30 days at that point.

No need to give any details on any of the removed posts, the ban message could serve as a summary of the actions taken.