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gorba Jun 19, 2022 @ 5:32pm
The Epic Online Service (EoS) is becoming a problem for games on Steam
Here's a list of all games on Steam that have implemented EoS: https://steamdb.info/tech/SDK/EpicOnlineServices/

This service creates an always-on capability, and while it seems reasonable to do so for launch, it is NOT proper for publishers to bolt-on these services months or even years after release, well beyond the refund window.

EoS is like Denuvo in that it creates an always-on tunnel connection making even single-player titles online-only games.

Here's are a couple of examples:

Killing Floor 2: https://i.redd.it/hrleddj9w6691.png
Elden Ring: https://i.redd.it/7ahcb5os0e691.png

Valve should step in and set some rules for publishers. They can implement EoS on the condition that they fully disclose to the customer via the third-party disclaimer and do not include the EOS overlay.

Further, Valve should be very clear with the publishers that they CAN NOT bolt on EoS AFTER release, and if they do so, they must provide a refund to the customer at their expense. Adding EoS alters the product's EULA beyond what the customer agreed to.
Last edited by gorba; Jun 19, 2022 @ 5:37pm
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Showing 46-60 of 99 comments
Satoru Jun 21, 2022 @ 7:27am 
Originally posted by Babi Gendut:
Inappropriate according to you, but not game developers.

No you're literally just adding on nonsense in some vain attempt to 'make a point' by basically lying because you know you're basically just spouting utter nonsense.
Last edited by Satoru; Jun 21, 2022 @ 7:28am
☎need4naiim☎ Jun 21, 2022 @ 7:37am 
Originally posted by LizardMizard:
Originally posted by ☎need4naiim☎:
It is probably that someone in EpicGames&Tencent alliance thought like:

"You still don't want to use EGS despite our truckload of games&exclusives everyday? We'll just plague your Steam games with EoS, easy."


Valve is thinking about solutions to terminate this all-new hurdle put by EGS, without making a formal retaliation. EGS is trying every tiny bit of wicket to RATTLE Steam Community, as if they seek a revenge from all of us.



Listen Tim Sweeney,

I am NOT making a profile on EGS to feed your business friends headquartered in PRC. Nothing (besides God) can make me use your ****** ****** store. Even now, You may plan on new a trickery to disable us from playing our purchased games in Steam. You underestimate one thing; My tenaciousness is bigger than you can ever imagine.

:sr4eagle:

I think this is the real heart of the complaint: "Epic = Bad". I won't get into an argument over this meme, but you should consider stopping playing games with the Unreal Engine if you really believe that. Also,

https://steamcommunity.com/app/526870/discussions/0/2299597907739214422/

The answer is no. Epic Online Services is not Epic Store Account. It is a module attached to the game engine to allow for multiplayer connection.
I am aware of that as i also have Tomb Raider games and TQ. Still bad and rattles the early buyers.

About that "X=bad" meme,
Something, in this universe, CAN be bad or good, there are greys but also white and black. As long as there are multiple proofs on fundamentals, one side will continue to agree on X is bad and it is not an embarrassing viewpoint either, to put it simple and hardcore.


About Unreal engine, my purchased games using Unreal Engine have nothing to do with Tencent. This Chinese company commingled with EpicGames later on.

Everyone has different reasoning to stay away from EGS. It is not straightforward.
Last edited by ☎need4naiim☎; Jun 21, 2022 @ 7:40am
Brian9824 Jun 21, 2022 @ 8:38am 
Originally posted by LizardMizard:
Originally posted by brian9824:

You never owned ANY PC games, read the EULA's for those older games before steam even existed.....

The second-hand market for those games says otherwise, try doing the same in Steam.
So since people do sell their steam accounts against the rules then I guess that proves me wrong. After all both cases are people selling access to games despite it not being allowed



Originally posted by LizardMizard:
Legally, you can't even sell your account.
Legally you couldn't transfer licenses either, but there is a difference between not being able to enforce it, and now being able to enforce it....


Originally posted by LizardMizard:
If you want to cite a specific EULA for a specific game that prohibits itself from being sold when bought physically, congratulations, you have the basis for a massive class action suit against Gamestop.

Can't recall gamestop ever selling used PC games....... Might want to stop and think there huh?
FOXDUDE69 Jun 21, 2022 @ 10:18am 
I welcome the ability to cross play with other platforms. I also think KF2 and Elden Ring are best enjoyed with an online community, they aren't your typical single player game, and KF2's focus is indeed on it's multiplayer.
gorba Jun 21, 2022 @ 1:22pm 
Originally posted by FOXDUDE69:
I welcome the ability to cross play with other platforms. I also think KF2 and Elden Ring are best enjoyed with an online community, they aren't your typical single player game, and KF2's focus is indeed on it's multiplayer.

My request isn't about that. I'm referring to publishers who add EoS weeks, months, or even years AFTER the game's launch, as noted in the person's KF2 review.

https://i.redd.it/hrleddj9w6691.png

Because of how EoS works, I am asking that Valve implement rules governing it, namely:

1. A publisher must fully disclose it like any third-party DRM solution (e.g., Denuvo, SecuROM, FairPlay, StarForce, etc.). As customers, we have the right to know what our product contains and how it could impact how we play it.
2. Developers shouldn't enable the EoS overlay. Epic cannot use their overlay to promote themselves on a game purchased and running from Steam.
3. If a publisher decides to implement EoS after the game's launch, they should provide the customer with a refund at the publisher's expense. Adding EoS changes HOW the game plays in a big way. Customers should be able to refund (as noted in the person's review above).
Last edited by gorba; Jun 21, 2022 @ 1:25pm
Brian9824 Jun 21, 2022 @ 1:30pm 
I still don't see what the problem is aside from the OP not liking it....

I mean they added it to 7 days to die. No issues with it, no performance changes, nothing other then I know see it with the game.

As for a refund LMAO, good luck with that. Valve is pro developer, they start trying to force what your suggesting OP and they'd just drive developers off their site and Steam would shut down.

If you want to be taken seriously you can start by PROVING how
'adding EoS changes how the game plays in a big way"

Also nothing wrong if they use the overlay, its normal for games to mention the engine, etc that the game runs on in the intro or screens, which news flash, promotes themselves as they own Unreal Engine....
LizardWizard Jun 21, 2022 @ 2:31pm 
Can't recall gamestop ever selling used PC games....... Might want to stop and think there huh?

I do need to stop and think - whether it's worth replying to you. But to anyone else that might read your comment, don't take my word, and certainly don't take his, a simple Google search should answer whether you can or can't sell physical copies of videogames (and if Gamestop is in the resale market for them).
Brian9824 Jun 21, 2022 @ 2:57pm 
Originally posted by LizardMizard:
Can't recall gamestop ever selling used PC games....... Might want to stop and think there huh?
a simple Google search should answer whether you can or can't sell physical copies of videogames (and if Gamestop is in the resale market for them).

So the answer is no, you didn't stop and think, or you've never been in a gamestop, or have no clue how to use google then.....

The answer is no, they have NEVER sold used PC games, in fact no legitimate store has ever sold them. Console games are very different from PC games and since you appear confused what we are discussing here are PC games, not console games.
RiO Jun 21, 2022 @ 11:46pm 
Originally posted by brian9824:
Legally you couldn't transfer licenses either, but there is a difference between not being able to enforce it, and now being able to enforce it....

You can legally transfer licenses in the EU.
It's just extremely hard to fit the conditions where it becomes legal.

And while the trader; publisher; developer; etc. aren't allowed to interfere in the reselling process, they aren't legally required to facilitate it either. Which leads to interesting situations where they come up with passive-aggressive distribution systems that make it impossible to resell a license without active interference in the matter.


This is the heart of the French case against Steam, where a major argument is that Steam's unwillingness to open up their distribution system to reselling is actually active interference in and of itself, because they are aware that its current set-up keeps everything under lock-and-key and they want to keep it that way. I.e. they're equating inaction to having an active effect.

(Valve lost the initial case - but they're appealing it, of course.)

The often-cited counterpoint to the French ruling is that the Germans ruled resale is not allowed. But this is wrong.

The most famous German example of a ruling involving software license resale is UsedSoft vs Oracle; which is where the original EU high court ruling that resale is allowed under certain conditions originates from. What the eventual Munich courts ruled in Germany is that UsedSoft simply didn't meet those conditions. They did not rule that resale is not allowed.

Another example was actually straight-up related to Steam. Here the German courts also did not rule that resale of individual licenses was not allowed. They ruled that resale of whole accounts was not allowed, which was what some people were effectively using as a workaround because Steam as a platform does not facilitate resale of individual licenses. The courts ruled that this was not allowed because it was a breach of the terms of service.

Iirc there were also some cases in the 8-bit and 16-bit console era where Nintendo -- at least; I think it was Nintendo -- was trying to get the practice of shops dealing in second hand videogame sales, outlawed. Unsuccesfully. Because reselling them was legal, not just between private persons, but also as a commercial business model.
Last edited by RiO; Jun 21, 2022 @ 11:51pm
Dr.Shadowds 🐉 Jun 22, 2022 @ 12:48am 
Originally posted by Babi Gendut:
Originally posted by Satoru:

I really hate to break this to you but steamworks is free. 100% free. You don't have to pay for any of it.



Uh no. You seem to be utterly deeply confused so let me help you with that

1) Steamworks is a middleware platform. This is provided FOR FREE for all developers.

2) Steam is a STORE PLATFORM. You might be shocked in that Steam games are available in many stores such as

greenmangaming
amazon
physical retail
fanatical
etc

Again you don't really seem to understand what 'greed' means other than 'a generic insult because I am utterly incapable of understanding how APIs work, and what a store is because that would require me to have an actual original thought as opposed to just having generic Gamer Rage"
Steamworks isn't free because :
1. Steam took 20%-30% from each sales.
2. Developers need to pay $100 for each game published on steam via steam direct.

Also keeping the essential tools to yourself so you can monopolize the whole platform (pc) is greedy.
EOS isn't free either by this logic, or any thing online by this logic.

Sale cut has nothing to do with using the service features, it's only for sales.
Flame-kun Jun 22, 2022 @ 1:01am 
*laughs in Rocket League and Fall Guys*
As for both of them: if you can't refund them, you can still request to delete those games from your steam account.

*coughs in Remnant: From the Ashes*
Anyone has any success to play good multiplayer session in this game today?
Or maybe in KoF XV?
Killing Floor probably?


Seriously tho: developers should fork different versions for different platforms, so there won't be any future connection issues. And of course, these issues "coincidentally" almost always happen after epic online services being implemented.
Or when after the game switching platforms.
Dr.Shadowds 🐉 Jun 22, 2022 @ 1:13am 
Originally posted by Flame-kun:
*laughs in Rocket League and Fall Guys*
As for both of them: if you can't refund them, you can still request to delete those games from your steam account.

*coughs in Remnant: From the Ashes*
Anyone has any success to play good multiplayer session in this game today?
Or maybe in KoF XV?
Killing Floor probably?


Seriously tho: developers should fork different versions for different platforms, so there won't be any future connection issues. And of course, these issues "coincidentally" almost always happen after epic online services being implemented.
Or when after the game switching platforms.
That one of the things people think about, where if they rely on service, their game goes down as well for online use, but since it free, and don't have to manage it themselves that one of the other trade off using service match making.

I know Epic, and Steam can have down time, and when they do, depending how game was handle for p2p either remain connected, just those haven't join can't connect, or have connections lost completely until service back up.
Babi Gendut Jun 22, 2022 @ 2:07am 
Originally posted by Dr.Shadowds 🐉:
Originally posted by Babi Gendut:
Steamworks isn't free because :
1. Steam took 20%-30% from each sales.
2. Developers need to pay $100 for each game published on steam via steam direct.

Also keeping the essential tools to yourself so you can monopolize the whole platform (pc) is greedy.
EOS isn't free either by this logic, or any thing online by this logic.
EOS isn't free if you look from epic perspective. Epic use their own money to develop and maintain it. However from developers perspective EOS is free. Especially for developers who use EOS in their games without selling them on EGS.

Originally posted by Dr.Shadowds 🐉:
Sale cut has nothing to do with using the service features, it's only for sales.
It is. The portion of these cuts is used to maintain steam services. Including the steamworks api for matchmaking.

If sales cuts has nothing to do with using steam services, valve will release those services independently from steam, and developers can use them without selling games on steam.
Last edited by Babi Gendut; Jun 22, 2022 @ 2:08am
Dr.Shadowds 🐉 Jun 22, 2022 @ 3:38am 
Originally posted by Babi Gendut:
Originally posted by Dr.Shadowds 🐉:
EOS isn't free either by this logic, or any thing online by this logic.
EOS isn't free if you look from epic perspective. Epic use their own money to develop and maintain it. However from developers perspective EOS is free. Especially for developers who use EOS in their games without selling them on EGS.
But 1st one still apply as you said, not free to developers, if want to slap sale cut as an excuse.

Originally posted by Babi Gendut:
Originally posted by Dr.Shadowds 🐉:
Sale cut has nothing to do with using the service features, it's only for sales.
It is. The portion of these cuts is used to maintain steam services. Including the steamworks api for matchmaking.

If sales cuts has nothing to do with using steam services, valve will release those services independently from steam, and developers can use them without selling games on steam.
So does Epic sale cut, but that wasn't the point, the point was you're using sales cut as an excuse why it's not free.

There free games that don't pay sale cut to use same said features that is what I'm saying.
ooooh yea
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Date Posted: Jun 19, 2022 @ 5:32pm
Posts: 99