Some guidelines for developers regarding localization.

[shadowflash]

Right now many games, especially UE4-based install multiple audio and video files in 5+ languages.

Since most people won't use more than 1-2 it's a huge waste of disk space, up to 50+Gb of unneeded data.

For now there's only option - manually deleting files from disk, but that doesn't solve two issues - first you have to have enough space to download everything. Second - if game is still being updated those will get downloaded again with major updates.

Not to mention that you have to be quite advanced user to know which files are safe to delete and which will lead you to downloading them again after you'll break the game.

It will be really good if developers will be strongly suggested to make those files selectable when you're installing the game. If game requres English or whatever the main language it was developed for to be present - so be it but at least there won't be multiple gigabytes of data installed which is useless for 99% people (except the few curious ones who speak 5+ languages and want to compare localizations).

Situation is really annoying because many gaming laptops are still sold with 500Gb SSDs and games can be 100+Gb with 5-50 of them being essentially junk data for most people.

[my new friend]

They can make them separate DLC and Valve does suggest using separate depots.

On the other hand, if your product has a large amount of language specific data, then it's recommended that you store that data in separate language specific depots. One additional depot per language. This way Steam will only deliver the content specific to the language the user is running.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/localization#2

aiusepsi lähetti viestin:

Yup, this is something 100% up to devs to get right. Steam completely supports this.

The content for Steam games is split up into multiple depots. Each depot can either be unconditional, so it's always installed, or have conditions attached to it, like language, OS, 64-bit. Steam will only download the depots which match your current language, OS and CPU.

The bit the developers have to do is actually segment their content up into multiple depots, rather than just dumping everything into a single depot.

This is an example of a game doing it very right: https://steamdb.info/app/28050/depots/

Some games bundle English content into the default set of content to install, Deus Ex: Human Revolution breaks it out into a separate depot, so if you set it to, e.g. French, you won't even have to download the English content.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/282992562606366509/#c282992562606416340

wuddih lähetti viestin:

and maximum 2 of those languages might be reponsible for a bigger filesize, japanese and english because they exist as dub, audio files. the other ones only exist in textform, subtitles and ui and that should not be more then a few megabytes.

and as example for doing it very wrong: https://steamdb.info/app/238010/depots/

the directors cut of above mentioned game, yep, the same game, polar opposite of handling stuff. they dumped all language depots and made it one again, the mac depots for language is just a file to tell the game to use other files in the main depot.

anyway, it all comes down to devs lazyness but at least hdd space should not be a problem today. 1 TB is like $50.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/282992562606366509/#c282992562606686288

[Start_Running]

Yeah that's a dev tthing and most just put one because ... easier than maintaining multiple depotts and DIsk space s dirt cheap. YOu can buy a 500 gig for less than the price of mostt games.

[shadowflash]

Disk space can be cheap if you own a decent desktop. You can just make a separate library for games that work fast from HDD and install a 10Tb HDD plus 1-2 2Tb SSDs. Same can't be said about laptops - not all of them got 2nd SSD slot, you need to have some experience with prying tools if you don't want to break tabs etc - not easy for everyone. And nowadays laptops are cheaper than desktops when one decent desktop video card can cost more than a gaming laptop. And USB drives can't run some modern games at playable speeds. Those that load data during gameplay.

And then there's other thing - not everyone have fast internet. If you happen to live in a big city you're fine, but if you live in some backwater village you can have speeds as low as 3mbit/s up/down which means you want to install as many games as possible and then keep them for as long as you'll be playing them at least 3-4 times a year. And some not really 3rd world countries like Canada and Australia can have bandwidth limits still. And let's not forget about SSD wear, which is worse if you have to constantly reinstall games with lots of small files.

[Judgmental Amaterasu]

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

Disk space can be cheap if you own a decent desktop. You can just make a separate library for games that work fast from HDD and install a 10Tb HDD plus 1-2 2Tb SSDs. Same can't be said about laptops - not all of them got 2nd SSD slot, you need to have some experience with prying tools if you don't want to break tabs etc - not easy for everyone. And nowadays laptops are cheaper than desktops when one decent desktop video card can cost more than a gaming laptop. And USB drives can't run some modern games at playable speeds. Those that load data during gameplay.

And then there's other thing - not everyone have fast internet. If you happen to live in a big city you're fine, but if you live in some backwater village you can have speeds as low as 3mbit/s up/down which means you want to install as many games as possible and then keep them for as long as you'll be playing them at least 3-4 times a year. And some not really 3rd world countries like Canada and Australia can have bandwidth limits still. And let's not forget about SSD wear, which is worse if you have to constantly reinstall games with lots of small files.

What you suggest ALREADY exists. Valve isn't going to "force" devs to do anything. That's how you kill your platform.

[Start_Running]

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

Disk space can be cheap if you own a decent desktop. You can just make a separate library for games that work fast from HDD and install a 10Tb HDD plus 1-2 2Tb SSDs.

Yup

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

Same can't be said about laptops - not all of them got 2nd SSD slot, you need to have some experience with prying tools if you don't want to break tabs etc - not easy for everyone.

External drives are a thing.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

And nowadays laptops are cheaper than desktops when one decent desktop video card can cost more than a gaming laptop. And USB drives can't run some modern games at playable speeds. Those that load data during gameplay.

Desktops actually run cheaper than comprable laptops. ANd are still more versatile. It's just that people have different measures for 'gaming'.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

And then there's other thing - not everyone have fast internet.

Then you can wait. Start the download and go to bed, wake up and its done.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

If you happen to live in a big city you're fine, but if you live in some backwater village you can have speeds as low as 3mbit/s up/down which means you want to install as many games as possible and then keep them for as long as you'll be playing them at least 3-4 times a year.

Funny story. That's about what My download speed is in my city. You get out to the boonies and you're measuring speed in Kbits. As said. Just wait. Start your download, do other stuff, go to bed, whatever.


None of what you mention is really Valve or Developer's concern.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

And some not really 3rd world countries like Canada and Australia can have bandwidth limits still. And let's not forget about SSD wear, which is worse if you have to constantly reinstall games with lots of small files.

Okay now I know you're just taking the piss.

Look what this is is a developer choice. Also nowadays localization packs aren't as simple as audio files. In some games it changes the in engine animation and cuscenes since the timing of things changes.

Basically it's just easier to dump everything on and maintain a single depot.

[shadowflash]

The keyword is "easier". Also i was talking about specific cases where it all comes to huge video and audio files.

I might have 12Tb of free space and i do on desktop but 50Gb wasted for nothing is still 50Gb wasted. And it's good when those files are separate, not packed in a single encrypted container.
But sometimes it is the case.

Desktops actually run cheaper than comprable laptops. ANd are still more versatile. It's just that people have different measures for 'gaming'

Yeah, especially when a decent *modern* video card costs the same or twice than entire very good 17.3" laptop. I would agree about desktop being superior in everything but portability and power consumption 10 years ago.

But not now. Good luck finding anything above 1050 close to MSRP. One desktop 3090 equals 2x 17.3" laptops with 3070, 32Gb of RAM and 2-4Tb of disk space. While i was buying 1080 when it was new for a fraction of a decent laptop price.

[Satoru]

Note that developers have their own internal processes that

Its also stupidly frustrating when a user downloads a game then has to download a separate thing that has the audio for the game in it, despite the fact that the audio files dont actually take up that much space anyway so having them all available is simply easier, provides a single distribution mechanism, allows hot swapping of languages, etc

There's really no upside anymore to having separately available language files. Its clumsy and user unfriendly. There's a reason that method was abandoned a decade ago.

[shadowflash]

Satoru lähetti viestin:

There's really no upside anymore to having separately available language files. Its clumsy and user unfriendly. There's a reason that method was abandoned a decade ago.

No upside... except not using 1/10 of average SSD space. Because depending on amount of voiced dialogues in the game voices alone can be up to 15Gb. But the worst offenders are games that have multiple videos in multiple languages when engine allows using videos without sound and playing external audio file at the same time. And that's when those video don't have proper lip syncing in animation, so there's no reason to duplicate huge videos, just play the same with different audio files, saving 10-30Gb of space (should i also mention using more efficient royalty-free codecs when engine also allows it?)

No one will make a fuss if localization files will be like 2Gb in 100Gb game, but when they are 30Gb in 80Gb game it's a little bit too much. Also about "user unfriendly" stuff. Two options. Menu before installing which allows you select specific language or all of them. Or doing it as free DLCs and just sending user from the menu to download those if he wants speech and videos in specific language. Again - with option to install them all obviously.

[Start_Running]

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

The keyword is "easier". Also i was talking about specific cases where it all comes to huge video and audio files.

I might have 12Tb of free space and i do on desktop but 50Gb wasted for nothing is still 50Gb wasted. And it's good when those files are separate, not packed in a single encrypted container.
But sometimes it is the case.

Desktops actually run cheaper than comprable laptops. ANd are still more versatile. It's just that people have different measures for 'gaming'

Yeah, especially when a decent *modern* video card costs the same or twice than entire very good 17.3" laptop. I would agree about desktop being superior in everything but portability and power consumption 10 years ago.

But not now. Good luck finding anything above 1050 close to MSRP. One desktop 3090 equals 2x 17.3" laptops with 3070, 32Gb of RAM and 2-4Tb of disk space. While i was buying 1080 when it was new for a fraction of a decent laptop price.

Yeah but you don't need the latest modern card to have a gaming desktop now do you?

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

No upside... except not using 1/10 of average SSD space.

HDDs are still a thing you know.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

No one will make a fuss if localization files will be like 2Gb in 100Gb game, but when they are 30Gb in 80Gb game it's a little bit too much.

Get a bigger HDD. Fairly simle there. Or keep fewer games installed.

shadowflash lähetti viestin:

Also about "user unfriendly" stuff. Two options. Menu before installing which allows you select specific language or all of them. Or doing it as free DLCs and just sending user from the menu to download those if he wants speech and videos in specific language. Again - with option to install them all obviously.

Again that's up to the developers . Valve already allows for various methods. Valve's not gonna force them to doing it so your best bet would be to start pushing for this on developer forums.