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Amaterasu (Avstängd) 21 mar, 2024 @ 11:26
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Get rid of Lolis and Lolicons
I know that I'm opening a hell of a can of worms, I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all. I know that I'm gonna get accused of being a closeted lolicon(I'm not, I don't even like kids in general). But it's something I've been feeling has been needed to be said for a long while.

Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11. But... it also normalized the idea that it was okay for people to be attracted to kids. Yes, literal kids.

Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make.

Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED].

And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law. :SpadeSmug:

As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing.

P.S. Not relevant, but I don't watch One Piece, I have a dislike of Shounen Anime, especially Battle Shonen, I just know Nami because my little brother is a Shounenhead. SEINEN FOR LIFE! Also all the [CENSORED] was so that someone couldn't just report this to the mods and get it taken down.

Edit: Thanks for the points.
Senast ändrad av Amaterasu; 21 mar, 2024 @ 14:01
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Amaterasu (Avstängd) 27 mar, 2024 @ 5:34 
Ursprungligen skrivet av Mythus:
Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
I know that I'm opening a hell of a can of worms, I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all. I know that I'm gonna get accused of being a closeted lolicon(I'm not, I don't even like kids in general). But it's something I've been feeling has been needed to be said for a long while.

Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11. But... it also normalized the idea that it was okay for people to be attracted to kids. Yes, literal kids.

Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make.

Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED].

And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law. :SpadeSmug:

As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing.

P.S. Not relevant, but I don't watch One Piece, I have a dislike of Shounen Anime, especially Battle Shonen, I just know Nami because my little brother is a Shounenhead. SEINEN FOR LIFE! Also all the [CENSORED] was so that someone couldn't just report this to the mods and get it taken down.

Edit: Thanks for the points.


" I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all."

I...doubt it? I mean are people actually convinced that the world is just filled to the brim with closet lolicons? Weird.

"Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11"

An interesting history lesson I guess, what's your point?

"Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make."


You're really flying off the rails here my guy, give us something that's actually Valves problem or at least something they can actually do something about. Valve has no influence of Japanese culture of government policy.


"Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED]."

This is definitely true, it's a nonsensical argument. However there is a very valid argument to be made regarding appearance of age vs actual age. An argument that goes both ways, someone appearing to be an adult when they are not doesn't magically make it okay to bang them, and likewise, someone appearing underage despite being above it does not make it okay for you to harass their partner or them. Actual age is relevant, it just so happens that cartoons are in a unique position to abuse the argument in a way it's not meant to apply. However, you've still not explained why this is Valves problem.

"And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law. "


A lot to unpack here and none of it relevant to Valve. Suffice to say this argument doesn't really work, I can think of a multitude of grotesque fetishes many of which are also just as illegal. Personal disgust is a poor argument for censorship, there are better arguments to make. As for US Law, it's not nearly as simple as you think, we will leave it at that because it's complicated and not relevant to Valve.


"As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing."

Ah, here we go, something actually related to Steam/Valve. Only took you five paragraphs to get to the point. Being concise is a talent, rambling is easy. So what exactly do you propose to do and to who? What's the real suggestion here? How do we identify and ban them? Who's going to decide what falls under this content umbrella? I'm getting the feeling you don't have an actual plan or real suggestion. You're just attempting to make a moral grandstand. A vast majority of modern societies consider this content abhorrent. A personal distaste for content however doesn't constitute a valid argument for removal of the content and banning of everyone that enjoys it. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take up my sword to fight to protect the innocence of a drawing.


It wasn't my intention to make a moral grandstand. Though intent and outcome are different. I am glad for your input and it gave me a bit to think about.
Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
Ursprungligen skrivet av SlowMango:
As shown, it does no always reference something sexual.

Being disrespectful is a cultural thing. Does not mean it's sexual.

As I stated before ロリコン comes from the book, The Lolita Complex, in which a grown man wanted to sleep with a 12 year old girl. By the literal definition of ロリコン, it is material that shows young girls in extremely suggestive to explicit scenes targeted towards grown men, specifically around the same age as the main character of the book, who was in his 30s. Meaning by definition it is pedophilic material.

well, that's a fictional book made by a csam victim, i dont see any problem by using a expression from that book
Ursprungligen skrivet av Mad Scientist:
You can already report content that portrays sexualization of minors or portrays minors in sexual conduct. People that do that may lose community functions temporarily or permanently.

Thus, if there's an issue with content, report it. Do note it may not be dealt with right away and once reported, leave it alone and they will investigate it when they get to it and make any determination for the content and the account involved.



Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
Ursprungligen skrivet av William Shakesman:
Thats not asinine. It is perfectly internally consistent. If you have any moral system with regard to sex you will probably reach those same conclusions outside of the system of "If I like doing it, it cannot be immoral" or "only consent matters" but the latter is just the former from people who watched too many youtube videos massaged with more words to make it sound like a system. The issue is there is no way at all to make an argument against lolicon in those latter two frameworks without some moral contradiction outside of "its just icky." or arbitrary legal fiat. And the overlap of people deeply concerned with lolicon and people who would be willing to sign away BDSM to do it is basically nil on the internet so we are just arguing from icky.

Exactly, what goes on between two consenting adults is fine. The problem with Lolicon is that the characters are explicitly supposed to look exactly like children, not short petite adults. Which as a society, we've collectively come to a consensus to agree that such things with kids... is bad enough to warrant a prison sentence.

I mean it's not a girl, but if you want an idea of a short adult character that looks like an adult. Krillin from Dragonball Z.

this is just fictional
Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
I mean it's already been proven that Lolicon is nothing more than simulated child porn a few times in this topic. Not really anything more to prove.

Also the "I"m not a pedo, you're the pedo because of <Insert Streamer here>" defense isn't really that good of a defense.

you're comparing real child abuse to fictional content:steamsad:
On Vacation 29 mar, 2024 @ 7:15 
It seems like most of this conversation has played out and most of everything I would have said has already been touched on. There is one thing I do want to point out though. First on Lolita. I don't think anyone that has actually read the novel would claim that it normalizes pedophilic behavior. It doesn't glorify it or attempt to paint it into a positive light. What it does do is showcase how people can rationalize some heinous behavior and not only see themselves as good, but as the victim. As well as how one can be morally appalling while outwardly being quite pleasant to the rest of the world. This is encapsulated very well in the flowery prose coming from a disgusting predator. It's unfortunate that at least in some circles it has the reputation it does (the movie didn't help this), because while it is intensely uncomfortable it is incredibly written.

Moving on from that though. The Lolita Complex is an entirely different book. As the title suggests The Lolita Complex is a reference to Lolita, but it's from a different angle. It presents itself as a serious analysis of abnormal sexuality surrounding adult and child relationships. Analyzing case histories, interviewing experts and things of this nature.

Analyzing is not my own words but the authors, because the book is dribble and it's widely believed the case history is largely if not completely fabricated. It's a bit reminiscent of someone who takes a abnormal psychology introductory class and then goes on to diagnose everyone around them, but it was also written in the 60's which adds additional issue's on top of. Why this book would resonate in Japan or lead to the rise of lolicon is beyond me. I'm not familiar enough with the culture at the time to even begin to speculate, but the book in the West at least, was never looked at as more than a sham.
Senast ändrad av On Vacation; 29 mar, 2024 @ 7:16
Amaterasu (Avstängd) 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:00 
https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity

I was going to let this topic completely die, but I'll just drop this here. Drop my mic. And go back to The Witcher. :SpadeSmug:
unfortunately steam profiting off it is the reason why the content exists on the platform
Coinkydink 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:15 
I agree.

Hentai content must be removed from Steam as it is far too close to a normalisation of rape and **dophilia.

Another solution that bypasses the accusations of censorship by the art-loving, freedom-of-speech-loving gamers (lol) is to allow users to *sort the viewing of games by developer country of origin*....
Personally, I automatically skip almost all Japanese , Korean and Chinese games and always spend time to determine if a game comes from these countries before assessing an investment in time or money.
It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with culture and game design.

Being able to filter out games from these countries ( which to me are more than 90% garbage if not downright nauseating) - this would make Steam a MUCH more attractive game store for me.

No doubt we can help Valve understand it is in their interest to clean up their act here. If profit is all they understand: the market for this pathological, anti-human garbage is dwarved by the number of people who DO NOT WANT IT HERE.
Senast ändrad av Coinkydink; 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:20
Coinkydink 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:20 
Ursprungligen skrivet av ناناشيأوفيل:
you're comparing real child abuse to fictional content:steamsad:


This argument does not stand up to any honest examination. Child abuse happens in real life and nobody should stop artists and authors from approaching it.
That is NOT what this culture is about.
You do not graphically dwell on these acts if you need to include them in your story.

This culture is about selling product to people who getting turned on by child abuse, and about normalising it, along with the pathological mixing of sex with violence.

People who get turned on by hentai, lolis, waifus etc, and have virtual friends instead of human beings are in urgent need of help and therapy.
Senast ändrad av Coinkydink; 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:22
i have to agree that there is a excessive amount of adult content games that don't belong on steam, if you compare it to epic you will find that epic game does not support any adult content type games that i have ever seen, neither does GOG.

the question is who at steam allowed this type of content and why, and also why is it so easily accessed by even limited accounts, it is extremely dangerous to the morals of youth that a child could for all purposes, download steam, be a free user and remove filters to obtain full adult content nudity games.

the issue falls with this lack of ethical compassion and endangerment of children on the platform.

there is no reason the content is needed for any adult, the games themselves don't belong on a video game market and certainly shouldn't be sold on a platform that is also for kids.

there are at least a dozen or more games that support adult content themes of nudity and sexuality, including a dozen with gender indifference, they are corrupting on all levels for both adult and childen exposed to them, it doesn't matter if its accidental or not, steam has the power to protect its customers by removing all the content from everyone and maintaining a ethical and moral platform.

its up to steam to represent its platform and community by removing the filth.
Senast ändrad av Everyone is Invited; 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:26
Amaterasu (Avstängd) 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:28 
I'd also like to mention that someone can be a pedophile without being a child predator, but one cannot be a child predator without being a pedophile. The definition of pedophilia is simple and easy. An attraction to Prepubescent children.

But I see the Lolicon defense squad has already started to pull out the jesters again. :SpadeSmug:

Edit: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedophilia For people who want to make the "it's not real" defense. Point to me the exact point in this definition that it says, "Real children". Because it doesn't. :SpadeSmug:
Senast ändrad av Amaterasu; 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:30
Crazy Tiger 7 apr, 2024 @ 7:41 
Ursprungligen skrivet av nagu_al:
No doubt we can help Valve understand it is in their interest to clean up their act here. If profit is all they understand: the market for this pathological, anti-human garbage is dwarved by the number of people who DO NOT WANT IT HERE.
And? The people not liking "porn" games aren't somehow all stopping to use Steam, they simply keep buying the games they like and want.

Gamers aren't a homogeneous group. There aren't enough people who would actually stop using Steam to get their point across. Heck, if all the people who actually made complaint threads and posts about the "porn" games on these forums now stop buying games on Steam, it still wouldn't be noticed by Valve.

Most gamers don't give a hoot. They merely focus on the stuff they like, not the stuff they don't like. The people using forums and social media to complain and such are minorities, not majorities.
Ogami 7 apr, 2024 @ 8:20 
Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
I'd also like to mention that someone can be a pedophile without being a child predator, but one cannot be a child predator without being a pedophile.

Which has actually been proven false multiple times. A lot of the child predators getting off on the power imbalance and a dominance fetish, its not limited to children, they are just the easiest victims.
Especially in cases of child abuse by family members its rarely a pedophilic motivation.
There are large studies about this subject.

I recommend reading this by the Australian Institute of Crimonology:
https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429

Especially the " Misperception 1: All child sex offenders are paedophiles" section.


Ursprungligen skrivet av Everyone is Invited:
i have to agree that there is a excessive amount of adult content games that don't belong on steam, if you compare it to epic you will find that epic game does not support any adult content type games that i have ever seen, neither does GOG.

Then you did not look very closely. GOG has been selling hentai games for years now, a ton of visual novels and other stuff. They even published games that Steam refused to publish.
The only way you did not see them on the GOG store is if you are from Germany or some arabic countries where the sale of those games online is not allowed for different reasons.
Senast ändrad av Ogami; 7 apr, 2024 @ 8:26
Amaterasu (Avstängd) 7 apr, 2024 @ 8:32 
Ursprungligen skrivet av Ogami:
Ursprungligen skrivet av sungoddess14:
I'd also like to mention that someone can be a pedophile without being a child predator, but one cannot be a child predator without being a pedophile.

Which has actually been proven false multiple times. A lot of the child predators getting off on the power imbalance and a dominance fetish, its not limited to children, they are just the easiest victims.
Especially in cases of child abuse by family members its rarely a pedophilic motivation.
There are large studies about this subject.

I recommend reading this by the Australian Institute of Crimonology:
https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429

Especially the " Misperception 1: All child sex offenders are paedophiles" section.

Only one half of what I said was disproven. But still, child predators can be pedophiles. Just like pedophiles can go their entire lives without touching a child. The crux of the argument is that just because they're not predators does not mean that they are not pedophiles.

Also... I love how stats of other nations were used rather than the United States, despite the fact that there are other factors at play in those nations. Such as Japan's low reporting rate and even if you do report, if it's not a slam dunk case, it's hard to get it in court. Meanwhile US studies tend to be ignored.

I wonder why: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9568794/ :MillaThink: Such a mystery
Senast ändrad av Amaterasu; 7 apr, 2024 @ 8:38
So much for letting it die. Curious, isn't it. Say one thing, do another.
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Datum skrivet: 21 mar, 2024 @ 11:26
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