Get rid of Lolis and Lolicons

[Amaterasu]

I know that I'm opening a hell of a can of worms, I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all. I know that I'm gonna get accused of being a closeted lolicon(I'm not, I don't even like kids in general). But it's something I've been feeling has been needed to be said for a long while.

Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11. But... it also normalized the idea that it was okay for people to be attracted to kids. Yes, literal kids.

Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make.

Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED].

And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law.

As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing.

P.S. Not relevant, but I don't watch One Piece, I have a dislike of Shounen Anime, especially Battle Shonen, I just know Nami because my little brother is a Shounenhead. SEINEN FOR LIFE! Also all the [CENSORED] was so that someone couldn't just report this to the mods and get it taken down.

Edit: Thanks for the points.

[Amaterasu]

引用自 SlowMango：

引用自 sungoddess14：

I never said you were a lolicon supporter. The reasons for unfriending were my own, had been building for a bit, and different.

Don't you mean the reason for blocking?

There was plenty of agreement towards those who implied I was one. Which shows the implications was shared.

I do not believe I implied as such either. If I did by mistake, then I do apologize. But I feel that it wasn't implied, nor directly stated.

[Mad Scientist]

I'll re-emphasize that if a game or app appears to violate any rules, all you have to do is report it on the store page. Anything depicting minors in sexual conduct or is sexualizing what appears to be children can result in a banned game/app and possibly additional action against the Developer.
They can also act on anything that encourages illegal activity towards minors. All one has to do is report it with any relevant information, get to the point in it, and they will look into it. That's your realistic course of action as has been suggested since Reply #1.

It may take a while for them to get to it and make their own determination.

[Amaterasu]

引用自 Mad Scientist：

I'll re-emphasize that if a game or app appears to violate any rules, all you have to do is report it on the store page. Anything depicting minors in sexual conduct or is sexualizing what appears to be children can result in a banned game/app and possibly additional action against the Developer.
They can also act on anything that encourages illegal activity towards minors. All one has to do is report it with any relevant information, get to the point in it, and they will look into it. That's your realistic course of action as has been suggested since Reply #1.

It may take a while for them to get to it and make their own determination.

To whoever stated that, I apologize for missing what was said back then.

[Boblin the Goblin]

引用自 Mad Scientist：

I'll re-emphasize that if a game or app appears to violate any rules, all you have to do is report it on the store page. Anything depicting minors in sexual conduct or is sexualizing what appears to be children can result in a banned game/app and possibly additional action against the Developer.
They can also act on anything that encourages illegal activity towards minors. All one has to do is report it with any relevant information, get to the point in it, and they will look into it. That's your realistic course of action as has been suggested since Reply #1.

It may take a while for them to get to it and make their own determination.

They also already block sexual material involving minors.

[Boblin the Goblin]

引用自 sungoddess14：

引用自 Mad Scientist：

I'll re-emphasize that if a game or app appears to violate any rules, all you have to do is report it on the store page. Anything depicting minors in sexual conduct or is sexualizing what appears to be children can result in a banned game/app and possibly additional action against the Developer.
They can also act on anything that encourages illegal activity towards minors. All one has to do is report it with any relevant information, get to the point in it, and they will look into it. That's your realistic course of action as has been suggested since Reply #1.

It may take a while for them to get to it and make their own determination.

To whoever stated that, I apologize for missing what was said back then.

It was him and literally the first comment. In fact, it was there a few minutes before the second comment.

[lilcoffeebean]

引用自 sungoddess14：

Hey, thanks for posting this. It gave me a lot to think about and made me consider my stance on this whole thing. I feel like your stance is the better stance than the one that I took.

No worries and I get your stance as there are area's where I find my own problematic. Primarily my discomfort with such content increases the more realistic the art style gets and it's hard to follow my own line of reasoning in proportion with that realism.

[Boblin the Goblin]

引用自 lilcoffeebean：

引用自 sungoddess14：

Hey, thanks for posting this. It gave me a lot to think about and made me consider my stance on this whole thing. I feel like your stance is the better stance than the one that I took.

No worries and I get your stance as there are area's where I find my own problematic. Primarily my discomfort with such content increases the more realistic the art style gets and it's hard to follow my own line of reasoning in proportion to that realism.

Once it starts getting indistinguishable from a real child, that's when it starts break the law and be classified as such.

But, as shown, Steam doesn't allow even anime -styled if they feel it's a minor.

[lilcoffeebean]

引用自 SlowMango：

引用自 lilcoffeebean：

No worries and I get your stance as there are area's where I find my own problematic. Primarily my discomfort with such content increases the more realistic the art style gets and it's hard to follow my own line of reasoning in proportion to that realism.

Once it starts getting indistinguishable from a real child, that's when it starts break the law and be classified as such.

But, as shown, Steam doesn't allow even anime -styled if they feel it's a minor.

Oh ya of course, that's not something I find on Steam and if any did sneak through it'd be given the axe real quick when reported. That comment isn't really about Valve, Steam, or anything related to what I think they should or shouldn't do.

Just a reflection more about my own feelings internally that while I believe fantasy exploring taboo's is a tale as old as time and that doesn't inherently mean there is innate desire in the physical world...it becomes harder for me to maintain that as the art pushes towards realism. For me not even at the point it's indistinguishable from a real child (though also true), but much sooner on that spectrum.

[Boblin the Goblin]

引用自 lilcoffeebean：

引用自 SlowMango：

Once it starts getting indistinguishable from a real child, that's when it starts break the law and be classified as such.

But, as shown, Steam doesn't allow even anime -styled if they feel it's a minor.

Oh ya of course, that's not something I find on Steam and if any did sneak through it'd be given the axe real quick when reported. That comment isn't really about Valve, Steam, or anything related to what I think they should or shouldn't do.

Just a reflection more about my own feelings internally that while I believe fantasy exploring taboo's is a tale as old as time and that doesn't inherently mean there is innate desire in the physical world...it becomes harder for me to maintain that as the art pushes towards realism. For me not even at the point it's indistinguishable from a real child (though also true), but much sooner on that spectrum.

Hit or miss.

The general sense of loli is the attraction to the cute aspect of it. I've met actual lolicons.

They do not like seeing lewd art of characters they like.

[Amaterasu]

A little off-topic, but you inspired me to change a bounty in my game to more reflect my own experiences rather than what it is now. Thank goodness I already put in a disclaimer!

Also to answer the burning question, the final straw wasn't my seriousness being called into question. It was the direct implication of my very real CSA trauma being a joke that ended up being the final straw for me.

[shado]

"her clothes were sexually suggestive"
all right that's a wrap. please hand over your hard drive

[Amaterasu]

I've said my piece. I'm going to go give myself a bit of peace and listen to relaxing music.

[Mythical]

引用自 sungoddess14：

I know that I'm opening a hell of a can of worms, I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all. I know that I'm gonna get accused of being a closeted lolicon(I'm not, I don't even like kids in general). But it's something I've been feeling has been needed to be said for a long while.

Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11. But... it also normalized the idea that it was okay for people to be attracted to kids. Yes, literal kids.

Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make.

Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED].

And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law. :SpadeSmug:

As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing.

P.S. Not relevant, but I don't watch One Piece, I have a dislike of Shounen Anime, especially Battle Shonen, I just know Nami because my little brother is a Shounenhead. SEINEN FOR LIFE! Also all the [CENSORED] was so that someone couldn't just report this to the mods and get it taken down.

Edit: Thanks for the points.

" I know that a lot of people are going to come out of the wood works and try to defend it and all."

I...doubt it? I mean are people actually convinced that the world is just filled to the brim with closet lolicons? Weird.

"Loli is an art style that took hold in Japan after a book known as the Lolita Complex, which was a book about someone wanting to [CENSORED] a child was released there. It became a viral hit and spawned the Lolita style, which in and of itself is just Victorian England dress turned up to 11"

An interesting history lesson I guess, what's your point?

"Japan didn't have laws against any sort of [CENSORED] until 2014, which it was finally made illegal and they gave people an entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ year to get rid of it. And even so, they still try to [CENSORED] children in animation and manga. Yes, really, this is a thing that still happens. Yes, that's what the entire art style of Loli is actually about. If it was supposed to be cute, it'd be Kawaii. If it was supposed to be childlike it'd be Chibi. If it was supposed to be a normal child, it'd just be a child. Yes, there are actual terms for every type of defense that people make."


You're really flying off the rails here my guy, give us something that's actually Valves problem or at least something they can actually do something about. Valve has no influence of Japanese culture of government policy.


"Also the "800 year old Vampire" defense is just the "Legal" Loli defense. They're still coded to be a child. It's still wrong. And according to laws in the US at least having Loli material and being a Lolicon(Which derives from Lolita Complex, you know, that book which someone wanted to [CENSORED] a kid. Yeah, you can get an idea of what they're really about. It's not about cute things, it's about kids)... is illegal and falls under the definition of simulated [CENSORED]."

This is definitely true, it's a nonsensical argument. However there is a very valid argument to be made regarding appearance of age vs actual age. An argument that goes both ways, someone appearing to be an adult when they are not doesn't magically make it okay to bang them, and likewise, someone appearing underage despite being above it does not make it okay for you to harass their partner or them. Actual age is relevant, it just so happens that cartoons are in a unique position to abuse the argument in a way it's not meant to apply. However, you've still not explained why this is Valves problem.

"And to counter the, "It's just a fantasy" defense... why specifically the childlike character? Why specifically them? There are plenty of adult coded people in anime, manga, and games. Plenty of them, such as Tae Takemi from Persona 5(Early 20s, looks it), Nami from One Piece(18 pre-time skip, 20 post. Looks it), wanna go with short and cute? Shiori Katase from My Tiny Senpai(In her 20s, looks it), want flat? Ms. Kobayashi from Ms. Kobayashi's Dragon Maid(At least 20s, looks it), Zebiantes from Chillin in my 30s after getting Fired from the Demon Lord's Army(Unknown, looks and acts like an adult), Hana Uzaki from Uzaki-chan wants to hang out(College student, looks it). Why not any of those examples or more? Because it's not about a petite woman. It's about the fact the character is coded as a child and it's being used in place of materials that more overtly known as being illegal, but as I said before, Loli material still counts in the same boat under US Law. "


A lot to unpack here and none of it relevant to Valve. Suffice to say this argument doesn't really work, I can think of a multitude of grotesque fetishes many of which are also just as illegal. Personal disgust is a poor argument for censorship, there are better arguments to make. As for US Law, it's not nearly as simple as you think, we will leave it at that because it's complicated and not relevant to Valve.


"As such, I believe Steam should rid itself of these things. Give this kind of thing one less platform of legitimacy. And that it should very much be a ban on sight kind of thing."

Ah, here we go, something actually related to Steam/Valve. Only took you five paragraphs to get to the point. Being concise is a talent, rambling is easy. So what exactly do you propose to do and to who? What's the real suggestion here? How do we identify and ban them? Who's going to decide what falls under this content umbrella? I'm getting the feeling you don't have an actual plan or real suggestion. You're just attempting to make a moral grandstand. A vast majority of modern societies consider this content abhorrent. A personal distaste for content however doesn't constitute a valid argument for removal of the content and banning of everyone that enjoys it. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take up my sword to fight to protect the innocence of a drawing.

[The Commendatore]

引用自 SlowMango：

Unfortunate. There were completely fine until their genuiness was called into question.

Despite the attitude taken toward anyone not for this suggestion.

It should've been obvious the thread wasn't genuine based on OP's past behaviour; just typical bellicosity.

[Amaterasu]

引用自 The Commendatore：

引用自 SlowMango：

Unfortunate. There were completely fine until their genuiness was called into question.

Despite the attitude taken toward anyone not for this suggestion.

It should've been obvious the thread wasn't genuine based on OP's past behaviour; just typical bellicosity.

Ah, but this was indeed a genuine thread. It always was. Also I was not "completely fine". I had to take more than one mental health break. Because I was flashing back to my own traumatic event and disassociating hard.