Can an online FPS be engineered so players can never wall hack?

[76561197963519852]

Is that possible?

[d3str0y3r]

No not really. If cheaters have access to the game's files and memory they will find a way.

All game's have flaws and cheaters will always exploit those flaws.

[Cathulhu]

This should be of interest to you then:
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/135507548120407092/

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by d3str0y3r:

No not really. If cheaters have access to the game's files and memory they will find a way.

All game's have flaws and cheaters will always exploit those flaws.

I mean, what about using a "key" that changes from day to day, hour to hour, that requires some kind of 2FA to keep active? Could that key then be used to encrypt data real time?

[Cathulhu]

Data is already encrypted when transmitted, but the game has to process that data and at some point it must be decrypted to be processed and then other applications can see that data too.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Sure it could, but it requires a level of invasiveness that no self-respecting person would accept.

File it under "punishing everyone for the sins of a few".

I will never accept some anticheat tool to have free reign on my box like a rootkitted spyware, and that is what it would take.

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by Cathulhu:

Data is already encrypted when transmitted, but the game has to process that data and at some point it must be decrypted to be processed and then other applications can see that data too.

Ok, so imagine only the client could see the data because it has a key that changes constantly.

When I was in the army, we used encrypted communication. However, we had a "fill" or a key, that changed weekly that let us decypher our own comms. If there was a way to loop 2FA into the process, I could see this making "another program" deciphering encrypted information, exponentially harder, or at a minimum, requiring cheat makers to make a system that has to now hack the 2FA on top of their main cheat app.

I'm just brain-storming. Not a CoSci-entist.

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by AmsterdamHeavy:

Sure it could, but it requires a level of invasiveness that no self-respecting person would accept.

File it under "punishing everyone for the sins of a few".

I will never accept some anticheat tool to have free reign on my box like a rootkitted spyware, and that is what it would take.

Can you explain what method you're thinking of?

[Cathulhu]

One way would be cloud gaming, that way the game would run on an isolated system. But that would introduce lag and running a datacenter for thousands of players would be very expensive and require a subscription to cover the costs.

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by Cathulhu:

One way would be cloud gaming, that way the game would run on an isolated system. But that would introduce lag and running a datacenter for thousands of players would be very expensive and require a subscription to cover the costs.

This would be interesting. If there was a way to hybridize the game client to run between both server and client with extreme client-side limitations besides computational resources, it would be neat.

I suppose the first barrier for entry would be ping, but I think there would be an instant market in the areas that could support it.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Originally posted by redacted:

Originally posted by AmsterdamHeavy:

Sure it could, but it requires a level of invasiveness that no self-respecting person would accept.

File it under "punishing everyone for the sins of a few".

I will never accept some anticheat tool to have free reign on my box like a rootkitted spyware, and that is what it would take.

Can you explain what method you're thinking of?

Complete invasive monitoring. Processes, web sites visited, key strokes, video output, internet connect points since most cheats run as a live service or at least the best ones do, anything you can think of.

[Cathulhu]

No, clientside will never work. The data is always sent by the server and processed by the client, that is data that can be read by cheats.
You can only eliminate the client by not running it on the PC you're playing on. Which leaves streaming as the only option.

And ping is not the only problem. Not everyone has a high quality internet connection to stream a low latency FullHD video stream (less time to compress, so higher bandwidth required), or is willing to pay a subscription to play a game.

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by AmsterdamHeavy:

Originally posted by redacted:

Can you explain what method you're thinking of?

Complete invasive monitoring. Processes, web sites visited, key strokes, video output, internet connect points since most cheats run as a live service or at least the best ones do, anything you can think of.

Hm, no. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about a client that is engineered in a manner that walls are just fundamentally, impossible.

It feels like you're taking your preconceived idea (round peg) and trying to shove it into my thread (square hole).

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by Cathulhu:

No, clientside will never work. The data is always sent by the server and processed by the client, that is data that can be read by cheats.
You can only eliminate the client by not running it on the PC you're playing on. Which leaves streaming as the only option.

And ping is not the only problem. Not everyone has a high quality internet connection to stream a low latency FullHD video stream (less time to compress, so higher bandwidth required), or is willing to pay a subscription to play a game.

Imagine the game looked like Doom. Like sacrificing all graphical updates to somehow obscure or encrypt data real time, so a cheat can't see it. Is that possible? Think of using all the CPU power we currently have to make the data as hard to read and decipher as possible while keeping the gameplay speed feel 90% of what we're used to.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by redacted:

Originally posted by Cathulhu:

Data is already encrypted when transmitted, but the game has to process that data and at some point it must be decrypted to be processed and then other applications can see that data too.

Ok, so imagine only the client could see the data because it has a key that changes constantly.

When I was in the army, we used encrypted communication. However, we had a "fill" or a key, that changed weekly that let us decypher our own comms. If there was a way to loop 2FA into the process, I could see this making "another program" deciphering encrypted information, exponentially harder, or at a minimum, requiring cheat makers to make a system that has to now hack the 2FA on top of their main cheat app.

I'm just brain-storming. Not a CoSci-entist.

Encrypting/decrypting and what not simple peer to peer communications is worlds different than doing the same for a live game that has to interpret a ton of different data from moment to moment.

Originally posted by redacted:

Originally posted by Cathulhu:

One way would be cloud gaming, that way the game would run on an isolated system. But that would introduce lag and running a datacenter for thousands of players would be very expensive and require a subscription to cover the costs.

This would be interesting. If there was a way to hybridize the game client to run between both server and client with extreme client-side limitations besides computational resources, it would be neat.

I suppose the first barrier for entry would be ping, but I think there would be an instant market in the areas that could support it.

MMOs already are run primarily server side, and it still doesn't prevent cheaters from doing what they do.

At the end of the day, there is no magic bullet to stop cheating in Multiplayer games. If people want to limit their exposure to cheaters, then they need to set up their own private servers and vet each and every person they allow to play on them.

[76561197963519852]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by redacted:

Ok, so imagine only the client could see the data because it has a key that changes constantly.

When I was in the army, we used encrypted communication. However, we had a "fill" or a key, that changed weekly that let us decypher our own comms. If there was a way to loop 2FA into the process, I could see this making "another program" deciphering encrypted information, exponentially harder, or at a minimum, requiring cheat makers to make a system that has to now hack the 2FA on top of their main cheat app.

I'm just brain-storming. Not a CoSci-entist.

Encrypting/decrypting and what not simple peer to peer communications is worlds different than doing the same for a live game that has to interpret a ton of different data from moment to moment.

Originally posted by redacted:

This would be interesting. If there was a way to hybridize the game client to run between both server and client with extreme client-side limitations besides computational resources, it would be neat.

I suppose the first barrier for entry would be ping, but I think there would be an instant market in the areas that could support it.

MMOs already are run primarily server side, and it still doesn't prevent cheaters from doing what they do.

At the end of the day, there is no magic bullet to stop cheating in Multiplayer games. If people want to limit their exposure to cheaters, then they need to set up their own private servers and vet each and every person they allow to play on them.

Valve did give us this new "steam group" setting to MM in. Imagine if someone with the marketing resource made a steam group and personally vetted every account that got in... That would be super cool. The logistics behind such an operation would be difficult though and require more than one person for the work load.